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Ovington Laser

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13779
Printed Date: 21 Jun 21 at 6:50pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Ovington Laser
Posted By: rich96
Subject: Ovington Laser
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 8:16am
Has there been any feedback from sailors about these new Lasers ?

Knowing the quality of Ovi boats it would be surprising if they weren't at least of better build quality that those to date ?

Interestingly I see our Tokyo Laser sailor is selling his Ovi after the recent Euros where he had some up and down results ? Probably not relevant but noteworthy ?





Replies:
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 8:28am
The ovi laser at our club is blistering quick.
I had heard on the grapevine the squad are sailing PSA boats as that is the builder for the games.
Seems sensible.

Andy

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Andy Mck


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 11:24am
Not at all surprising if its quicker than some of the other hulls

Probably more consistent too


I've probably had about 15 Lasers over the years and one in particular was definitely a rocket from day 1.Never worked out if it was the mast rake, stiffness, weight, foil alignment etc - it just went fast

Will be interesting to see if there is a mass move to these Ovi hulls
Maybe a bit of a change (even if its just a potential improvement) will help the class if more new ones get bought ?



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 2:16pm
Nothing like a true one design class.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 6:16pm
I thought they were all built according to the build manual!


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 6:45pm
All depends on what youíre goals are, standing on the podium in Tokyo probably relevant. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 May 21 at 11:17am
Assuming Ovi's will build them to closer tolerances than previous builders (which will always happen) they should be less variable, but how much was the performance difference between two brand new LPE Lasers anyway?

I suspect much of the difference ascribed to the top sailors going and cherry picking the best hull comes down to the fact that it was a top sailor sailing it Embarrassed


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 04 May 21 at 12:40pm
The boats being used at the Games are built by PSJ and not PSA.

Elliot is having a new boat so selling the one in Europe, makes sense after Brexit!

It is also called an ILCA and not a Laser! 


Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 04 May 21 at 2:43pm
There was a good interview with Chris on the build of the ILCA, I think it was on the Ovi facebook group 

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RS600 988


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 04 May 21 at 6:19pm
https://fb.watch/5hio-lQyEQ/" rel="nofollow - https://fb.watch/5hio-lQyEQ/



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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 8:23am
There was a story going around that back in the day, the top sailors went to the factory to pick a hull which gave better mast rake, due to variations in the mast pot installation. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 10:35am
There are always a lot of rumours, but mast rake must be a nightmare on unstayed boats because a tiny variation in the step makes for a big variation at the mast tip.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

There was a story going around that back in the day, the top sailors went to the factory to pick a hull which gave better mast rake, due to variations in the mast pot installation.†


It wasn't just the top sailors - it was quite common

Less rake = more potential leech tension


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

There was a story going around that back in the day, the top sailors went to the factory to pick a hull which gave better mast rake, due to variations in the mast pot installation. 


It wasn't just the top sailors - it was quite common

Less rake = more potential leech tension

I imagine the helm balance was also a major factor. 

It would be very fascinating to know if as rake tolerance was included in the original build manual, if it was added and then if it was changed over time. 

Interesting when they did the last Olympic single handed equipment trial they didnít like the D-zero because, and I paraphrase, Ďbeing able to adjust the mast rake makes the boat more technical to sail and distracts from the athleticism required by the sailorí


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 9:36am
It's not just the tolerances on the rake that affect leech tension but also the relative stiffness's of the top and bottom sections which always varied a lot. In an ideal world you would probably want the mast pot to be as upright as possible but with a soft lower section F/A so that the rig is more upright downwind but still raked aft upwind and too section to suit your weight.
There was a nice video of Ovi's on FB which showed them controlling the mast pot rake during construction(within a few mm Chris T says)  http://fb.watch/5kMOyTTj9F/" rel="nofollow - https://fb.watch/5kMOyTTj9F/


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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 7:04pm
Interesting about the mast stiffness, given relatively simple controls Iím sure itís easier to produce repeatable alloy masts vs composite but perhaps decades of windsurfer masts have improved composite mast repeatability 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 7:37pm
Not really-when you make Al spars they change shape as the extrusion die wears. If the die is new the mast will be significantly different to one made from a die on its last legs. Whereas with composites it is not like that and it is easy to get a consistent stiffness


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by tink

......Iím sure itís easier to produce repeatable alloy masts vs composite but perhaps decades of windsurfer masts have improved composite mast repeatability 

One problem with the alloy masts is they were extruded and the extrusion dies wear over time so wall thickness will vary over time so that can have a big effect on stiffness. Even a +/-5% on wall thickness will give a big change in section stiffness.

Conversely, I know from boats like the OK and Finn where mast bend is critical that the carbon mast manufacturers now do really repeatable bend numbers (+/- a few mm).


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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 8:04pm
So it comes down to quality control, as the die wears you replace it. An extension die is a few thousand  max and I imagine you get a significant number out of a die. Iím not convinced a simple die measurement is less  controlable than precision resin content, wetting out efficiency, fibre alignment, cure temperature and other variables 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 8:27pm
In my time laser sailing, I had top sections weighing between 2.6 and 3.1kgs. Thats the range of the 10 or 15 topmasts I had so the true population will be a bit broader. Thats all in the wall thickness - if you do the sums on inertia, that is a big, big difference which transcends going from a bendy to stiff mast in, say a Solo. So the extrusion tolerances are massive. I heard for the Atlanta games in 1996 the organisers bough 500 sets of spars and cherry picked the 500 closest of each spar to the mean.
My knowledeg of composites is that tensile performance of fibre can vary a bit within batches, but will probably even over a spar. Resn fraction can be controlled very precisely in almost all methods even wet lay, so I think that the 2.6 to 3.1kg range will be very, very easy to improve on in composite.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 5:53am
Iím not disagreeing with anyone that the alloy spars differ and that is likely to be tool wear, my point is that it is simple and relatively easy to control and buy a new die as it wears. 




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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 5:33pm
is a laser mast actually extruded as a laser mast or is it a generic tube?


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 6:31pm
Ok -well replacing extrusion dies will not come cheap. Has anyone got any idea of how consistent Al mast properties are apart from the mast manufacturer-no . I have compared two nominally the same Al masts and found them dramatically different. Now I donít know much about Al , but I do know about composites and if you have good material and a good process you can get a very close control on the laminate properties.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 6:56pm
Extrusion dies are about 3K and will do a lot of masts before they wear out. The  on cost to the sailor for good quality control will be minimal. As I said above not arguing that there isnít variations but that with controls there should not be. Not commissioned a new die for a while but have a recent quote for an ongoing project. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:03pm
Who controls the quality of the extrusion? Who has any idea whether the mast mast is mid spec top bottom spec or out of spec? Has any customer ever seen this data-sorry if I was off hand on my last post -multi tasking after too much wine!


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:05pm
Who controls the quality of the extrusion? Who has any idea whether the mast is mid spec top bottom spec or out of spec? Has any customer ever seen this data-sorry if I was off hand on my last post -multi tasking after too much wine!


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:07pm
Would have thought any manufactured product would have to apply to a certain standard.

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Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:10pm
https://www.anodisingnorthwest.uk/specifications

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by tink

Extrusion dies are about 3K and will do a lot of masts before they wear out. The †on cost to the sailor for good quality control will be minimal. †

You obviously know more about this than I do, but if, say, you halve the acceptable range of wall thickness for the spars then won't you also approximately halve the life of the die before it produces sections that are out of spec?


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:39pm
Anodising is protection against corrosion it is heat treatment that controls the mechanical properties but it wonít account for the weight differences.

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:56pm
https://www-bwcgroup-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bwcgroup.co.uk/extrusion-academy/aluminium-extrusion-tolerances?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&hs_amp=true&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16205036934731&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bwcgroup.co.uk%2Fextrusion-academy%2Faluminium-extrusion-tolerances

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Robert


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 8:26pm
Too late to do the maths but +/- 0.4mm looks like the tolerance for the diameter of laser masts 

https://www.aalco.co.uk/datasheets/Aluminium-Alloy-EN-Standards-for-Aluminium-Extrusions_48.ashx" rel="nofollow - https://www.aalco.co.uk/datasheets/Aluminium-Alloy-EN-Standards-for-Aluminium-Extrusions_48.ashx


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 8:37pm
Is it even a custom extrusion?


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 7:12am
Thatís from the EN standard and I would say it would be hard to improve on. Only ever seam the process once but pretty awesome. A very long hall, the extrusion comes out of the die very fast, at some point a sled grabs it pulls it to stretch it and cuts it. All very fast, it is a high volume process. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 8:55am
https://youtu.be/P8BWQBP4Vhk

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Robert


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 11:01am
Nominal is ~ 1.5mm thickness so +/- 0.4 is biig for boat spars. I think you can influence the range by replacing dies more often but that adds cost.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

Is it even a custom extrusion?

I'd be pretty surprised if it wasn't a stock tube...


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 10 May 21 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Paramedic

Is it even a custom extrusion?

I'd be pretty surprised if it wasn't a stock tube...

That a what i'm thinking. So all the talk of die wear is irrelevant. Its not going to be extruded to especially high tolerances but on then flip side once these tolerances are exceeded the die will probably be replaced and because they are making kilometres of the stuff its not a financial drama to do this.



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