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Ovington Laser

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13779
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 2:04pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Ovington Laser
Posted By: rich96
Subject: Ovington Laser
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 8:16am
Has there been any feedback from sailors about these new Lasers ?

Knowing the quality of Ovi boats it would be surprising if they weren't at least of better build quality that those to date ?

Interestingly I see our Tokyo Laser sailor is selling his Ovi after the recent Euros where he had some up and down results ? Probably not relevant but noteworthy ?





Replies:
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 8:28am
The ovi laser at our club is blistering quick.
I had heard on the grapevine the squad are sailing PSA boats as that is the builder for the games.
Seems sensible.

Andy

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Andy Mck


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 11:24am
Not at all surprising if its quicker than some of the other hulls

Probably more consistent too


I've probably had about 15 Lasers over the years and one in particular was definitely a rocket from day 1.Never worked out if it was the mast rake, stiffness, weight, foil alignment etc - it just went fast

Will be interesting to see if there is a mass move to these Ovi hulls
Maybe a bit of a change (even if its just a potential improvement) will help the class if more new ones get bought ?



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 2:16pm
Nothing like a true one design class.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 6:16pm
I thought they were all built according to the build manual!


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 02 May 21 at 6:45pm
All depends on what you’re goals are, standing on the podium in Tokyo probably relevant. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 May 21 at 11:17am
Assuming Ovi's will build them to closer tolerances than previous builders (which will always happen) they should be less variable, but how much was the performance difference between two brand new LPE Lasers anyway?

I suspect much of the difference ascribed to the top sailors going and cherry picking the best hull comes down to the fact that it was a top sailor sailing it Embarrassed


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 04 May 21 at 12:40pm
The boats being used at the Games are built by PSJ and not PSA.

Elliot is having a new boat so selling the one in Europe, makes sense after Brexit!

It is also called an ILCA and not a Laser! 


Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 04 May 21 at 2:43pm
There was a good interview with Chris on the build of the ILCA, I think it was on the Ovi facebook group 

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RS600 988


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 04 May 21 at 6:19pm
https://fb.watch/5hio-lQyEQ/" rel="nofollow - https://fb.watch/5hio-lQyEQ/



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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 8:23am
There was a story going around that back in the day, the top sailors went to the factory to pick a hull which gave better mast rake, due to variations in the mast pot installation. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 10:35am
There are always a lot of rumours, but mast rake must be a nightmare on unstayed boats because a tiny variation in the step makes for a big variation at the mast tip.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

There was a story going around that back in the day, the top sailors went to the factory to pick a hull which gave better mast rake, due to variations in the mast pot installation. 


It wasn't just the top sailors - it was quite common

Less rake = more potential leech tension


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 06 May 21 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

There was a story going around that back in the day, the top sailors went to the factory to pick a hull which gave better mast rake, due to variations in the mast pot installation. 


It wasn't just the top sailors - it was quite common

Less rake = more potential leech tension

I imagine the helm balance was also a major factor. 

It would be very fascinating to know if as rake tolerance was included in the original build manual, if it was added and then if it was changed over time. 

Interesting when they did the last Olympic single handed equipment trial they didn’t like the D-zero because, and I paraphrase, ‘being able to adjust the mast rake makes the boat more technical to sail and distracts from the athleticism required by the sailor’


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 9:36am
It's not just the tolerances on the rake that affect leech tension but also the relative stiffness's of the top and bottom sections which always varied a lot. In an ideal world you would probably want the mast pot to be as upright as possible but with a soft lower section F/A so that the rig is more upright downwind but still raked aft upwind and too section to suit your weight.
There was a nice video of Ovi's on FB which showed them controlling the mast pot rake during construction(within a few mm Chris T says)  http://fb.watch/5kMOyTTj9F/" rel="nofollow - https://fb.watch/5kMOyTTj9F/


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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 7:04pm
Interesting about the mast stiffness, given relatively simple controls I’m sure it’s easier to produce repeatable alloy masts vs composite but perhaps decades of windsurfer masts have improved composite mast repeatability 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 7:37pm
Not really-when you make Al spars they change shape as the extrusion die wears. If the die is new the mast will be significantly different to one made from a die on its last legs. Whereas with composites it is not like that and it is easy to get a consistent stiffness


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by tink

......I’m sure it’s easier to produce repeatable alloy masts vs composite but perhaps decades of windsurfer masts have improved composite mast repeatability 

One problem with the alloy masts is they were extruded and the extrusion dies wear over time so wall thickness will vary over time so that can have a big effect on stiffness. Even a +/-5% on wall thickness will give a big change in section stiffness.

Conversely, I know from boats like the OK and Finn where mast bend is critical that the carbon mast manufacturers now do really repeatable bend numbers (+/- a few mm).


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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 8:04pm
So it comes down to quality control, as the die wears you replace it. An extension die is a few thousand  max and I imagine you get a significant number out of a die. I’m not convinced a simple die measurement is less  controlable than precision resin content, wetting out efficiency, fibre alignment, cure temperature and other variables 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 07 May 21 at 8:27pm
In my time laser sailing, I had top sections weighing between 2.6 and 3.1kgs. Thats the range of the 10 or 15 topmasts I had so the true population will be a bit broader. Thats all in the wall thickness - if you do the sums on inertia, that is a big, big difference which transcends going from a bendy to stiff mast in, say a Solo. So the extrusion tolerances are massive. I heard for the Atlanta games in 1996 the organisers bough 500 sets of spars and cherry picked the 500 closest of each spar to the mean.
My knowledeg of composites is that tensile performance of fibre can vary a bit within batches, but will probably even over a spar. Resn fraction can be controlled very precisely in almost all methods even wet lay, so I think that the 2.6 to 3.1kg range will be very, very easy to improve on in composite.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 5:53am
I’m not disagreeing with anyone that the alloy spars differ and that is likely to be tool wear, my point is that it is simple and relatively easy to control and buy a new die as it wears. 




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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 5:33pm
is a laser mast actually extruded as a laser mast or is it a generic tube?


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 6:31pm
Ok -well replacing extrusion dies will not come cheap. Has anyone got any idea of how consistent Al mast properties are apart from the mast manufacturer-no . I have compared two nominally the same Al masts and found them dramatically different. Now I don’t know much about Al , but I do know about composites and if you have good material and a good process you can get a very close control on the laminate properties.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 6:56pm
Extrusion dies are about 3K and will do a lot of masts before they wear out. The  on cost to the sailor for good quality control will be minimal. As I said above not arguing that there isn’t variations but that with controls there should not be. Not commissioned a new die for a while but have a recent quote for an ongoing project. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:03pm
Who controls the quality of the extrusion? Who has any idea whether the mast mast is mid spec top bottom spec or out of spec? Has any customer ever seen this data-sorry if I was off hand on my last post -multi tasking after too much wine!


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:05pm
Who controls the quality of the extrusion? Who has any idea whether the mast is mid spec top bottom spec or out of spec? Has any customer ever seen this data-sorry if I was off hand on my last post -multi tasking after too much wine!


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:07pm
Would have thought any manufactured product would have to apply to a certain standard.

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Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:10pm
https://www.anodisingnorthwest.uk/specifications

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by tink

Extrusion dies are about 3K and will do a lot of masts before they wear out. The  on cost to the sailor for good quality control will be minimal.  

You obviously know more about this than I do, but if, say, you halve the acceptable range of wall thickness for the spars then won't you also approximately halve the life of the die before it produces sections that are out of spec?


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:39pm
Anodising is protection against corrosion it is heat treatment that controls the mechanical properties but it won’t account for the weight differences.

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 7:56pm
https://www-bwcgroup-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bwcgroup.co.uk/extrusion-academy/aluminium-extrusion-tolerances?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&hs_amp=true&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16205036934731&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bwcgroup.co.uk%2Fextrusion-academy%2Faluminium-extrusion-tolerances

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Robert


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 8:26pm
Too late to do the maths but +/- 0.4mm looks like the tolerance for the diameter of laser masts 

https://www.aalco.co.uk/datasheets/Aluminium-Alloy-EN-Standards-for-Aluminium-Extrusions_48.ashx" rel="nofollow - https://www.aalco.co.uk/datasheets/Aluminium-Alloy-EN-Standards-for-Aluminium-Extrusions_48.ashx


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 08 May 21 at 8:37pm
Is it even a custom extrusion?


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 7:12am
That’s from the EN standard and I would say it would be hard to improve on. Only ever seam the process once but pretty awesome. A very long hall, the extrusion comes out of the die very fast, at some point a sled grabs it pulls it to stretch it and cuts it. All very fast, it is a high volume process. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 8:55am
https://youtu.be/P8BWQBP4Vhk

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Robert


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 11:01am
Nominal is ~ 1.5mm thickness so +/- 0.4 is biig for boat spars. I think you can influence the range by replacing dies more often but that adds cost.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 May 21 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

Is it even a custom extrusion?

I'd be pretty surprised if it wasn't a stock tube...


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 10 May 21 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Paramedic

Is it even a custom extrusion?

I'd be pretty surprised if it wasn't a stock tube...

That a what i'm thinking. So all the talk of die wear is irrelevant. Its not going to be extruded to especially high tolerances but on then flip side once these tolerances are exceeded the die will probably be replaced and because they are making kilometres of the stuff its not a financial drama to do this.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 25 Jun 21 at 10:32am
Just noticed that a Laser/ILCA 7 with covers, trollety etc will be near£7.5K

Initially a bit shocked but I guess its half of an OK or a quarter of a Finn now ?

So, despite the low tech etc its a very good buy to get racing ?

Remembering that in the 90s you could get one for £2K ish


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 25 Jun 21 at 1:34pm
And in the 70s about £400!

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 25 Jun 21 at 4:25pm
So basically it’s just kept up with inflation in a very similar way to cars and bikes .
At the moment that 7 and a half grand for a new Laser would buy you a year old Aero or Dzero , pricing seems about right to me . 
Grf is right about one thing, a lot of sailors are tight wads LOL


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Jun 21 at 4:59pm
Or buy a new Laser from LP for almost half the price.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 25 Jun 21 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Or buy a new Laser from LP for almost half the price.

True but you are buying a non class legal boat  , which cannot be sailed in class events , which is built to a unknown and unchecked spec. 
So yes it will be cheap to buy but it will have a lot less value than a class legal boat when you come sell it .

You pays your money and you take your choice.Smile


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 25 Jun 21 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat


Originally posted by 423zero

Or buy a new Laser from LP for almost half the price.

True but you are buying a non class legal boat  , which cannot be sailed in class events , which is built to a unknown and unchecked spec. 
So yes it will be cheap to buy but it will have a lot less value than a class legal boat when you come sell it .
You pays your money and you take your choice.Smile


But I suspect most sailors still wouldn’t know what the difference is between them. They look the same and one has the laser logo on the sail so is the laser, I reckon they’ll hold their used price better than you think

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 25 Jun 21 at 9:18pm
I totally disagree. Just look at every advert for Lasers on Apollo duck or on fb dinghy and dinghy bits site, they all stress the fact they have a WS plaque 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26 Jun 21 at 7:53am
I just took a look on Apollo duck.  Literally none of the first 8 I looked at (at which point I stopped looking) mentioned WS plaques or ILCA or any such thing. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jun 21 at 9:49am
The Laser class is still active, they have accessories for sale, including a 'logo' to cover up the ILCA logo on your sail, padded toe straps with Laser logo on, Laser not illegal to them.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Jun 21 at 1:01pm
Err name any race organised for ‘ the laser class ‘ in this country or anywhere in the world for that matter . 
Basically LPE is selling its boats to sailing schools in the USA and supplying replica parts to club sailors who are not bothered about being class legal . 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jun 21 at 1:36pm
Quick look on TLC Facebook page, shows five week long events in five European countries, presumably they can also take part in British open handicap events, Great Lakes etc?
No axe to grind in this issue, I don't think anyone in this Saga can claim the high ground.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Jun 21 at 5:21pm
Still no events run , some planed ,let’s wait and see how many happen .
 As someone that’s followed this saga from the very start there is one side that has always had the best interests of sailors at heart and another side that failed to keep its side it’s side of  loads of join agreements, lost in USA courts and made LPE bankrupt so it does not  need to pay the damages awarded against it ( a tactic the owner has used before so didn’t have pay parents of children that had their finger chopped off by his baby buggies) . 
So maybe no one in this mess comes up smelling of roses, but the blame for this mess falls much harder on one side than the other. 


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Jun 21 at 5:45pm
Who .. except a few that are involved or who are commercially at risk really care anymore ?   Increasingly this is yesterdays fight surely ....


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Jun 21 at 7:53pm
Yes. There are newer and better boats in this section of the market. But none sell in the numbers or have the world reach as the ILCA/ Laser . Even the most successful of the new boats , the RS aero doesn’t come anywhere close. Unfortunately it will be the dominant singlehanded boat for at least the next two decades. After all what other class has a builder in China, South American ,Asia , Japan, Australia and multiple builders  in Europe ? 
When this all kicked off I really hoped it would mean the end of the ILCA/ Laser as the dominant singlehander and hoped the Aero and Zero would fill the gap. But all that happened for most of the world is that it’s reinforced its position . 
The UK is different, what with the long term success of the Solo and the impact of the Aero. For my part I also don’t have a dog in this fight , I enjoyed my laser sailing in the past but cannot see any way I would ever have another one. Fingers crossed a d zero will be siting in my boat parking space by the end of the year Smile


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 6:09am
One part of the story has come to an end, Bruce Kirby has passed away, aged 92.

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Robert


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 6:33am
Sad, but unlikely to make any odds. It may even worsen the situation as the ex-builder will probably seek to sever what ties are left and the family will be wanting to maintain intellectual rights.


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 9:00am
Originally posted by 423zero

One part of the story has come to an end, Bruce Kirby has passed away, aged 92.
Very sad to hear that, I look back on many happy years racing Mr Kirby's sailboat. Fair winds and following seas.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 11:59am
It’s very sad . I spent many happy years sailing his simple boat first drawn on a napkin. 
But it won’t make any difference to the ILCA situation, all the important decisions have been made and set in stone. The class is stronger than it been in years.
All it means is he definitely won’t get the damages he won from LPE and associated companies which he was never doing to get anyway as Resgty has already made them bankrupt and closed them and all assets have been transferred to new companies.
The class is healthy and have loads of new builders.
LPE ( or what ever it’s call now) will continue sell boats to sailing schools/holiday centres and the odd private buyer who wants a very cheap boat . 
That’s the new reality. Smile


Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 1:12pm
All fine until said private buyer who wanted a very cheap boat attempts to sell it on as a class-legal boat.  UKLA has taken steps to inform the junior feeder classes of the risk, but there will always be some kid's parent who knows better.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 4:17pm
Very true , but like all boat buying unfortunately, it’s buyer beware .

But going by the first one I’ve seen for sale on the dinghy and dinghy bits for sale it might not be a big problem .
It was clearly stated it was a laser and not a ILCA and everyone that asked about it, asked the right questions . But I still  suspect someone wide boy/ girl will still still try it on somewhere a long the way.
Tbh I don’t think the company (LPE ) is really interested in selling boats to individuals in this country . Not enough profit margin now they are no longer made in the uk . 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 5:04pm
The confusion certainly will come. After all, up to a certain date, my Laser would qualify as an ILCA? But past that date it won't?
What is the date? What happened to the numbering system? Am I relying on a small plate on the aft bulkhead? How do they differ? Can I sail my Laser in club racing? How about at my club Laser open? No? Then how come Fred can, my boat looks just like his? And why is it called an ILCA open when everyone is sailing Lasers?

Not sure I'd buy into that mess.



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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 5:06pm
And RIP Bruce Kirby, designer of one of the best beach toys ever.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 5:10pm
I agree Rupert.

Doesn't look pretty to me as an outsider, but then maybe it doesn't need to.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 5:32pm
It’s will only be a problem if LPE sell loads of boats .

And there is no sign of that .Lots of talk from them but no action.
They are selling in tiny numbers even thought they are nearly giving them away . All successful boats need a good class association and there is no sign of LPEs ‘ laser class ‘ being anything other than words on a web page . 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 6:40pm
LP claim they have built and sold more 'Lasers' so far this year than all the single handers in the world added together! The winner in most battles is the one with the best production facilities.

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jul 21 at 7:42pm
To be frank if a LP press release told me the sky was blue I'd want independant verification.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 8:31am
do the LPE boats get an allocated sail number? If so does it line up with the ones allocated to the ILCA? If not then there is an easy way to tell that your 'Laser' is not class legal, however I would think there will be unsuspecting people that buy one and then find out later. As for LPE not selling to individuals, they are through Sailing Chandlery

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 9:00am
Perhaps down the line there could be more ILCA's registered than have actually been built!!!
Would have thought there would be serious consequences for a company that deliberately lied in its adverts, plus ILCA would jump at the chance to rubbish LP.

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Robert


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 10:44am
As it happens, I'm kind of in the market for a 'Laser' at the moment.
You get to the point where the mileage on your car is higher than your Laser's sail number, it's time to change one or both.
I mostly race in a PY free-for-all, but there's usually a good 'race within a race' among quasi-Lasers.

Used boats which would be a sensible upgrade to mine are in short supply. The four grand brand new option starts to look tempting. OTOH, getting a brand new boat scratched on the beach would be annoying and I really can't face that 'toilet blue' colour of the new boats...
Best option seems to hunt for an old boat that's lived quietly on a pond in the Midlands.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 12:51pm
Ponds in the North and South not good enough LOL

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Ponds in the North and South not good enough LOL


Ponds in the North too far away to go looking at old Lasers.
Not so many pond clubs in the South and a lot of the Lasers turn out to have had a hard early life in squads and suchlike.

Maybe the market will be a little more liquid later in the year?
I assume the UK has been pretty much starved of new Lasers for a couple of years now?


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by 423zero

LP claim they have built and sold more 'Lasers' so far this year than all the single handers in the world added together! The winner in most battles is the one with the best production facilities.

If that’s true about production facilities  , LPE have already lost . No way they can compare with Ovington, Devoti , PSA, PSJ, and the four or five other manufacturers ILCA now have on side . 



Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 6:01pm
It is still a Laser ..whatever the current badge of commercial convenience.  It is still made from polyester, it still is single skin layup, and is still very similar to the ones we first bought back in the 70's.. Yes - whoever makes it now or made it in the past.  Nothing wrong with that back in the day  .... or is it is being suggested / implied  that the 'new' ones are somehow superior enough to brag about and to justify the cost....Now that is much more likely to worry many of us !



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Jul 21 at 7:00pm
Very disappointing that there are no articles about Bruce Kirby, from what I know myself he was a big wheel in sailing, Olympics etc, would like all the knowledge I have picked up over the years put into context.

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Robert



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