In my opinion the easiest way to run racing without any RO is to have a designated boat to give a warning signal and prep and then everyone takes there own times/laps. This would be a 10 minute job for the results person to sort at the end of the day 

I appreciate there are ‘manual’ ways of running races but surely the technology exist that each sailor cares a bit it tech, it tells them when to start, records the race and when ashore uploads and produces the results. Clearly a good part of the technology already exists. 

Yes the trackers are used in the results process.

We take the tracker recorded finish time and lap count,  then compare with the physical scoring sheets.

Having processed many hundred of races in this manner,   I have often seen a big difference in times recorded by different spotters even if they are on the same boat,  ie human error

Trackers have also helped resolve scoring queries and often submitted as evidence by the sailor,  showing how many laps a boat has completed and finishing position  

But could you run the event without the use of manual times? Even if everyone took their tracker afloat (I'm guilty of this!)

Easy -  online entry list allocates tracker, and start number if split starts -  then you get a report showing finish times and lap count.  

The course needs to be defined within the tracking system so it can work out lap times,  lap counts and finish times etc.  Trackers can be placed on the buoys (if laid),  or  for a growing number of venues we have a database on fixed buoys.  The course can also be pinged using an App.  

Originally posted by ClubRacer But could you run the event without the use of manual times? Even if everyone took their tracker afloat (I'm guilty of this!)

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http://www.sailracer.org" rel="nofollow - www.sailracer.org
Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management

Set the app on each device so they broadcast to the same frequencey and at same interval and then use that as your method of gatheirng results.  easy to see who is ocs and when they finish.  allowing for gps error ask the sailors if you have a close finish to confirm who they crossed with and where in relation to one another.  times ca be taken from there to give py results too.

obviously biggest hurdles are getting people to either set there new phone up to do this or invest in an older device and sim card, plus the waterproof case/bag for it.  i reckon iphone 5 would be a good setup with a cheap pay as you go sim for under £100 per boat.  next hurdle is for them to remember to do it.

i started doing this 10years ago at it was hard to convice people to risk their phone back then and still now its not easy, but its definatley getting into the realms of club racing use.

bonus of broadcast is can be watched by anyone with a link on a computer

Available off the shelf,  for a typical club application £50 per tracker,  PA

I have https://raceqs.com on my phone purely for personal interest. It is free as I use it in my limited way and has many features I do not use which include "regatta" I freely admit to knowing nothing further but "just saying".

Edit. Apologies Oli, I didn't properly read your post, I guess we're on a similar track. 

 

I was one of the beta testers for SAP Sailing Analytics which used mobile phones.

Whichever software you use (and I'd highly recommend you take a look at the free app Sailracer.net) there is work to do.  I'd say more work than with the old paper route but the playback has its advantages. So long as you have fixed buoys and only have to ping them the once, the workload can be reduced somewhat, but it's still a chore putting in the course and roundings etc then adding all the competitors. It's doable at club level but a ballache unless you have someone who loves the computer side of things but then you may as well just have an OD.

The logistical nightmare of getting everyone to turn up with the app running on their phone and the phone charged was another pita! We gave up and now just do pursuits when we have no OD which just need someone to buzz the start which at times will be one of the competitors.

* RaceQs would have had me missing at least two marks by a few metres in this Sunday's races so you need to reset your fixed mark positions on a race by race basis as in addition to the GPS accuracy the marks themselves move around by a few metres in different wind directions.

• Getting everyone to download,
  
• 
  
• App has to be installed,  some people will need help,
  
• 
  
• Compatibility issues across different phones,
  
• 
  
• Not everyone has a suitable phone,
  
• 
  
• Some not prepared to take their £1,000+ smart phone afloat,
  
• 
  
• Concerns over using mobile data allowance,
  
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• Massive difference in GPS accuracy across different phone types,
  
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• Battery life -  turn on GPS on your phone at best accuracy and location frequency and most phones will only last a few hours, 
  
• 
  
• People forget to turn the tracking app on when they go afloat,  
  
•  
• Not possible to control/configure the GPS app remotely (Most dedicated GPS trackers have a remote control option)

My question was more a curiosity as to whether the technology existed that for general racing other than setting a course the race officer duties could be eliminated - in a mixed fleet. The club buys the trackers and increases the club dues according. Not every member needs a tracker unless off course you sail at a club where there are no boats left in dinghy park on a Sunday morning 

For general racing it sounds that it would be feasible. Everyone gets more races per year. I’ve visited clubs and seen almost as many people running the race as actual sailing which is not healthy long term. 

Obviously each club will have its big races when they won’t have enough tackers and a race team would be required. 

Its called beat racing, I have been involved with its development so I know a little about it and the challenges that automatic race management present. Interestingly most have been covered by various posts already.

When we started developing this app, it had a number of aims, one of which was to be able to go out with your mates, who may or may not have the same boat as you and make a race. 

It wasn't easy, and to be honest it still isn't all that easy but the devlopment continues and it gets easier all the time.

I think Simon Lovesey touched already on the differences between phones and gps accuracy and with this in mind it should not be taken too seriously, rounding results to the nearest 10 seconds might not be too far from a fair conclusion. 

That said with the Beat app it is entirely possible to race differn't classes and get a result with no race officer and no need to have pre set marks or pre set a course, it is all edited in after the race.  - Its not magic but it does take a lot development work in the background.

The app is free and available on both the app and play store. It does a lot more than just create races so it is worth a look.

Search for Beat Racing on the stores or the website is https://beat-racing.co.uk/

https://beat-racing.co.uk/

This is a good idea,  but I am not sure it would address the real issue of inconsistency in mobile phone GPS accuracy.

This year I have managed to test numerous different phones (IOS and Android) as GPS trackers from various manufacturers,  across a variety of Apps and seen significant differences in accuracy even for the same phone.  

Firstly the GPS installation will vary according to phone design,  with things like aerial and case design playing significant roles on the physical front.  

Secondly,  GPS is very power hungry and the higher the accuracy the greater the battery drain.  The phone's software will try and compensate,  and perhaps allocate power across a wide range of applications,  which may explain the differences in accuracy for  the same phone over time.

Thirdly,  phones use a variety of methods to work out location,  again to save battery

A phone can be used as a GPS tracker and for casual usage is fine,  BUT a phone is designed to do many different functions,  so will always be a compromise.  For those who want to get the most out of tracking a dedicated GPS tracker is the way to go,  with many units costing less than a phone.  It is interesting to see how many people use a dedicated tracker (eg Garmin) with Strava  

 

The experience from big events is using technology we need less people to actually deliver the event.

gps battery life is a killer for phones, i have used an old ipad 2 and a bluetooth gps unit to do day racing offshore before, this could be an alternative buit havent tested it myself with a phone.

standalone gps units are great if you dont want the "live" features that phones give.

beyond the various limitations all these systems have the biggest is getting mass take up, it has to be simple for the huamn processing the end data and even simpler for the inital users.

You knew the answer before you asked the question.

We all know the answer , it’s no . For big events I am sure it is a help but for the average puddle club it’s no help at all, either in making it easier to run the race or the ability to need less people .

With the right technology which appears to exist the answer is yes. A nominated PRO can set the course and then actually sail the race, no ARO required. Safety crew can monitor the start line. 

There appears also to be other real positives in that you can post race understand where you could have done better by looking at the plots. I can’t be the only person who would love to understand why that boat 50ft behind at the leeward mark was 50ft ahead at the windward.

That's why I bought my Garmin Viviactive 3 watch, RaceQs is pretty 'difficult' (it's still in Beta on the watch but the web app is not at all intuitive and has bugs which doesn't seem to save the wind direction when corrected from the auto detected direction after the race. But It's great to replay your race afterwards, especially if your buddy has RQs on his boat too.

True but, TBF, you don't need wifi or mobile signal to use RaceQs or Strava...

Exactly -  GPS data can help enormously with calculating PY,  with so much data and the ability to drill down to leg times etc,  potential to produce a far more representative handicap 

Our fantastic sport has gone from hulls of solid wood, ply, GRP, foam sandwich and carbon. Masts from wood, alloy and carbon. Sails of cotton, Dacron and all sorts of films and laminates. I could go on about fittings, ropes, what we wear. 

But despite the technology being available many would prefer labour intensive (error prone) flags, pencil and paper. 

I have it, it's an excellent book and the author is a regular on here. I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning the other book for the club sailor "Start To Win" by Eric Twiname, I have had a copy for 30+ years and bought 'Club Sailor' A couple of years ago, the two complement each other well.

In my opinion half the problems of running racing using any form of technology which doesn't record simple elapsed times or using a clock with a start time and finish times (in my opinion this is much harder as you have to worry about getting another set of digits right when writing them down or inputting into the pc) come from getting the average joe to put a set of results together. Because quite frankly I'm peeved off from doing it every other weekend and not having a lunch time.

Sailwave has its benefits though. The preset scoring which changes quickly between long series and short series. The ability to upload PY's easily and import competitor lists from throughout the season so you don't have to add a ton of new boats each week. It can also upload to their server and link it to your website so if you're like me and have not a scooby about that sort of thing you can still get them online within seconds of inputting the results. We also had the Lasers for an event this year in which they wanted the results in Sailwave which because we're already using it makes it about a million times easier to do for them. 

For those of you not using Sailwave to do your results how are you doing them? Why aren't you using Sailwave? How do you envisage the results process while using technology like trackers without leaving it to one poor b**tard to sort out each week?

Finding the file from what ever device you've used, whether that means transferring it to the pc via stick/plugging in the said device/ pinging it over and saving the file in the correct location or just dumping it anywhere they can find on the desktop. I doubt its something most people do on the daily

Then you need to go through the wall of text Sailwave presents when uploading via CSV, ensure you don't overwrite any existing results or post into the wrong race as this then becomes an issue the results manager will have to then sort (far too common by the way!!) any overwritten results may never be discovered.

Mapping the CSV to use the correct info and ignore the irrelevant stuff such as name/class etc as any spelling mistakes or how its written will cock the whole thing up (Sailwave could easily sort this problem out by having it remember what the mappings were on the last use. But I guess all it takes is someone to click the wrong button and no results would be being posted that day unless someone knew how to sort it.)

Any incorrect info on the CSV such as wrong sail numbers etc will then create classes which confuse most people when it prevents them publishing the results (compared to using say the sail no. wizard you notice these issues as they appear and correct any minor mistakes before creating a result rather than just dumping a ton of problems into the table)

Automatic GPS results sounds great and the £50 a tracker per annum sounds fairly good deal for the package but my club wouldn't go for it. The alternatives all sound like compromise, nothing is complete and all involves a ton of work arounds and problems. Pen and paper beats them all hands down for use ability for the less competent, and secure of any technical hiccups

Don't get me wrong this isn't a case of complaining about Sailwave as I don't think you could make a better system for it. More of a complaining about dealing with sailing results in general and making sure its presented in a professional and manner which minimises the amount of time I have to spend doing it 

Admittedly buying an App and GPS would maybe cost less than another boat but perhaps the old duffers who can't use sail wave but can count boats past a flag know something.

I raced windsurfers for 25+ years and the windsurfing course racers (basically the same as dinghy racing) have said the same things to their reaching brethren to try to persuade them to try racing and they give exactly the same reasons as non racing dinghy sailors for not racing.

FWIW reaching up and down in a good breeze is fun, it's what I do when I'm out for a blast* (rather than racing or, occasionally , practicing). Plus there isn't the culture of racing amongst windsurfers, most of whom don't even belong to a club.

* what the board manufacturers describe as 'freeriding' and, unlike dinghies, there are boards specifically designed for it.

My club and I are not against new technology, that’s why we have a m/c for starting and use sail wave to work out handicap results on the couple times a year we have them.

 But like 423zero I fail to see how any of the systems mentioned can help my club run races easier or with less people . 

I'd say windsurfing has declined in 30 years more than dinghy sailing has in 60, the first Windsurfer Worlds in 1976 had 456 entries!

My fear remains that people increasingly have less free time and giving up a weekend to run racing for someone else will be low priority. Which reduces the numbers of people who do it, which instead of 1-2 per year becomes 2-3 then 3-4 and suddenly it isn't sustainable. So number of races reduces (I hear this at lots of clubs - "we now only race every second week")... Suddenly a windy weekend means you are racing monthly. Busy that weekend you might only race once in 6 weeks. It's no longer a regular activity. You de-skill. Your performance reduces. You loose interest....

This is a risk certainly and, while it also applies to other sports, the effort need to go sailing for the day is greater, and more time consuming, than say cycling or running which you can do and get a good workout in a couple of hours or less. The duties thing is more a matter of discipline and commitment but I get what you mean, when I was chairman of the windsurfing club, by the end of my tenure I attended more committee meetings than I did days sailing in the year.

I almost agree with all of this (and have been saying most of it here in the frozen north for 25 years)...  

Yes, it could (to a point), but it was handled very badly by the 'governing bodies. It is different to dinghies insomuch as 'recreational windsurfers' mostly don't join clubs* or support 'governing bodies' whereas a fair percentage of non-racing dinghy sailors do. But the 10% that race windsurfers do, mostly, belong to some kind if organisation.

* I was chairman of a NW windsurfing club for a number of years which has been around since the early '80s and is, in many ways, similar to a typical small dinghy club in that it holds a lease on it's water, foreshore and club buildings, the main difference is that nearly all the members are non-racers. Back in the '80's it was a strong racing club with club racing on a Thursday night in Div 1 and later Raceboards. Over the years we produced a couple of Olympic hopefuls, several National Champions and at least one World Champion. But even then only around 10% of the membership raced regularly.

4 sails in and I can do over 20 knots and get in the foot straps and harness.  Drag racing mates in the flat channel is about as much as I'll ever do. But weather wise I think it will compliment cycling and sailing. 

But, for me, dinghy racing is what makes sailing fun in a wide range of conditions. The tactics and strategy of dinghy racing just outstrips all other sports IMO and the beauty of it is you still get that adrenalin rush from the race even in tame conditions. 

The downside is the set up for a race needs to be somewhat more specific to produce that 'tension' of the race. And the time investment for a beginner to get to the stage where they fully immerse themselves in all the tactics and strategy see many drop away. I think these are the two biggest challenges dinghy sailing faces. 

Yup 

Dinghy racing to me has just been an extension of the skillset I have enjoyed for years racing boards, the tactics are slightly different and the sensation can be a little dull and confound all the bloody ropes, but I love it just the same and think it can carry me beyond the occasional fears I get of pulled muscles on boards stuck somewhere offshore and in pain trying to get back, at least with a boat you can fall into it and jiggle your way back.

I went the other way, and then back again, but exactly the same sentiments. 

I do so hate the indifference shown to us at grass roots, the RYA was never great, but God it was Oh so much better back in the day, before commercialisation and 'professionalism' took its toll. They have missed so many tricks by ignoring board sports and the world could have been so much better for organised activity with a little more vision and co operation with the various supply trades as we had back in the day.

Yup  

But hell, it all pales in the face of Covid, I wonder just how it's all going to end.

I'm just trying to keep optimistic, nothing else to do. There's a vaccine, there are better treatments, and people will get more sensible so things will improve.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9rKYi_3y7QIVwuvtCh2HyQ1YEAAYASACEgK4bPD_BwE

I feel for you, but I do think you are very unusual in not sailing for that length of time .

I think I have missed about two months worth of sailing.But then again I sailed at every opportunity at my club.  In fact I even went sailing when we could only pleasure sail which is something I never normally do lol .

In fact a lot of clubs have even reported an increase of people taking part in races .

Fingers crossed the vaccines work as hoped and we can return to something like normal life by summer 2021 .