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Hitting a Mark...

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13705
Printed Date: 28 Feb 21 at 1:12am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Hitting a Mark...
Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Subject: Hitting a Mark...
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 7:52am
Morning, 
Just wandered if you could help. (again) 
 
We had a little chat at the club yesterday after a  sailor hit a mark. and wandering if you can correct or point out anything we missed. 

it was a finish mark and the boat had to pass it to starboard to cross the line. in doing so hit the mark, broke rule 31.

Sailor then carried on sailing around the mark to complete their 360, so in affect did a turn around the buoy, while doing this he called for water on another boat... which rules 44.2 comes into affect, and they cannot do this?

So unless i am barking up the wrong tree, this is cut and dry?

Now i have in the back of my head that if you hit a Buoy you have to unwind yourself before you start your penalty turns and affectively re round.. but i cannot find this on the book... so is this not the case? 
Thank you in advance



Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 9:59am
This is an interesting little problem.

A boat may take her one turn penalty around the mark.

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/818?page=11" rel="nofollow - Case 108
When taking a penalty after touching a mark, a boat need not complete a full 360° turn, and she may take her penalty while simultaneously rounding the mark. Her turn to round the mark will serve as her penalty if it includes a tack and a gybe, if it is carried out promptly after she is no longer touching the mark and is well clear of other boats, and when no question of advantage arises.

Original Boat (A) starts taking a penalty when she begins 'making the required number of turns' (rule 44.2),

From that time until she completes her penalty she shall keep clear of other boats not taking penalties (rule 22.2).

Whether or not she is entitled to mark-room is largely irrelevant, because mark-room only entitles her to exoneration for Section A rules and rules 15 and 16 (rule 21).

Rule 22.2 is a rule of Part D, so no exoneration for breaking rule 22.2 under rule 21

If the other boat (B) was hunting A and either not giving mark-room or not sailing her proper course, then A might get exoneration under rule 64.1(a)  or rule 24.2.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:12am
I don't think you have to 'unwind' yourself before turns. WRT calling water, she can't, rule 44.2 says "after getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible" so she can't sail around the mark as that is not getting away from other boats asap. After completing her 360 turn she "she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing."

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:37am
Careful it's not a '360 degree' penalty. It's a One Turn Penalty including one tack and one gybe (rule 44.2). That can be a good deal less than 360 degrees.


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:42am
Cheers chaps


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:50am
Unwind? Isn't that when you go around a mark the wrong way?

To re-finish you just need to go back to course side and sail through the line again, it doesn't matter how you get there, and if you get their via a penalty turn then that's just an efficient way of completing your penalty and re-finishing.  But you need to have completed your penalty turn before re-finishing. 

A tack then gybe that takes you round and end and back through the line is fine. They could have born off in to a gybe, then tacked, then gone trough the line and not go themselves involved needing water from other boats finishing. But it all depends on the situation and having to keep clear of boats not doing a penalty turn. 

"22.2 A boat taking a penalty shall keep clear of one that is not"

So I'd say it's rule 22.2 they broke if they hadn't complete the last tack or gybe. But if they had, then I guess they can call for mark room?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 12:43pm
I expect I am overthinking myself into a sea lawyers logic hole, but can a boat that is required to keep clear also call for mark room? The boat taking the penalty must initially sail well clear of other boats. That's not a definition, so it goes to the dictionary. She must then keep clear of other boats. Fair enough. But a windward boat entitled to mark room is also required to keep clear. So if I'm not overthinking then a boat taking a penalty, and most especially one that has completed the penalty is still entitled to mark room subject to various other requirements in RRS18.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by JimC

I expect I am overthinking myself into a sea lawyers logic hole, but can a boat that is required to keep clear also call for mark room?

Anyone can 'call' for anything they damn well please.

But a give-way boat can certainly be entitled to mark-room, for example, port gybe, or windward boat inside at a leeward mark.

As discussed above, problem with a boat required to give way under rule 22.2 having mark-room is that she doesn't get exoneration for failing to keep clear under rule 21.

If the other boat was hunting her and either not giving mark-room or not sailing her proper course, then she might get exoneration under rule 64.1(a) or rule 24.2, but that would be a long shot.

Originally posted by JimC

The boat taking the penalty must initially sail well clear of other boats. That's not a definition, so it goes to the dictionary. She must then keep clear of other boats. Fair enough.

I don't think that a boat taking a penalty that fails to keep clear of another boat necessarily implies that she failed to sail well clear in the first place, thus making the penalty non-compliant with rule 44.2 so it doesn't count: maybe so maybe no, but she is going to have to do another penalty in respect of the latest failure to keep clear, or face disqualification.

Originally posted by JimC

But a windward boat entitled to mark room is also required to keep clear. So if I'm not overthinking then a boat taking a penalty, and most especially one that has completed the penalty is still entitled to mark room subject to various other requirements in RRS18.


True, but see above about no exoneration if it's rule 22.2.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 1:10pm



This scenario demonstrates the difference between a 360 degree penalty and  One Turn Penalty, and presents some flip-flops in the analysis.

Assumption
@1 Y reaches the zone clear ahead of other boats.
Y is entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2(b))


Hits mark 

@2 Y touches the mark, and her bow also crosses the finishing line
Y breaks rule 31.
Y finishes in accordance with the definition.
At this point, Y has been given all the mark-room she is entitled to, and she is no longer entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2(d)).


Starts taking penalty 

@3 Y is no longer touching the mark, and has begun making her turn to take her penalty for touching the mark.
Y begins to be required to keep clear of other boats in accordance with rule 22.2.

Suppose there had been another boat, that became overlapped with Y between @1 and @3 and was close to Y @3, there might be an issue whether Y complied with her rule 44.2 obligation to get well clear of other boats before beginning her penalty. If a protest committee concluded in hearing a valid protest that she had not complied with that obligation, then she would not have taken her penalty for breaking rule 31 in accordance with rule 44.2 and subject to being validly protested for breaking rule 31, she would be penalised for that breach.
@4 Y’s stern clears the finishing line: she is taking a penalty under rule 44.2 and has crossed the finishing line, so she ‘un-finished’ in accordance with Definition : Finish (a), and is still racing.
@4 Y continues taking her penalty.
@4 Y gybes onto starboard tack
  • With respect to any boat approaching the finishing line on port tack, Y will be on opposite tacks with her proper course at the mark to tack, thus rule 18 will not apply.
  • With respect to a boat approaching the finishing line on starboard tack, Y would be entitled to mark-room from any boat becoming overlapped outside her (rule 18.2(a)), but would remain required to keep clear of such a boat in accordance with rule 22.2, and would not be exonerated for any breach of rule 22.2 by rule 21. Because Y is manoeuvring below and outside the finishing mark, it is highly unlikely that any other boat on the finishing line side of the finishing mark is going to get overlapped outside her.
@5 to @6 Y continues taking her penalty
@7 Y is head to wind, still taking her penalty
@8 Y is past head to wind.
Y has tacked and has completed her penalty, no longer required to keep clear under rule 22.2.
Y becomes required to keep clear of other boats not tacking under rule 13.
Y becomes entitled to mark-room from any boat overlapped outside her, that is now, almost any boat approaching the finishing mark from the course side, which will exonerate her if she breaks rule 13 (rule 21).
@9 to @10 Y continues bearing away to finish.
@11 Y finishes
@12 Y’s stern clears the finishing line and Y is no longer racing.



Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 11:50am
I follow the drift of this debate, but suggest that whilst the penalty boat is taking its penalty turn (gybe & tack) it is effectively out of the game and for want of a better discription 'invisible' the point at which it completes the penalty it 'reappears'. Only at this point can it claim to have established an inside overlap at the mark but could only be entitled to room from other boats that are still >3 lengths from the mark. Would that be the case?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 1:29pm
Not keen on the 'invisible' or 'out of play' idea.  If that were the case, rules 22.2 and 24.2 would have no work to do.


There's nothing in the rules to say that a boat taking a penalty turn cannot become entitled to mark-room:  it's just that if she does, she will not be exonerated for not keeping clear as required by rule 22.2, because rule 21 (Exoneration) does not include rule 22.2.


And any mark-room that she becomes entitled to is not limited to boats more than 3 boat lengths away.  Why should it be?


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 6:20pm
Would it not be the case that whilst taking the penalty turn, you should not be in a position to manouvre into an instantaneous 'advantagous' situation over other boats in close proximity. That appears to go against the caveat in case 108 'well clear of other boats, and when no question of advantage arises'.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Would it not be the case that whilst taking the penalty turn, you should not be in a position to manouvre into an instantaneous 'advantagous' situation over other boats in close proximity. That appears to go against the caveat in case 108 'well clear of other boats, and when no question of advantage arises'.

Andy, 'in a position to manoeuvre into an instantaneous 'advantageous' situation':  you are shovelling words into the rules that aren't there.

Case 108 is primarily about ways a boat may manoeuvre in taking a penalty.  It does nothing to add to or interpret the words of rule 44.1(b)

If a boat ... despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage ... by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

Looking at the diagram above, my view is that:
  • Generally, because she remains required to keep clear by rule 22.2, with no prospect of exoneration if she breaks that rule, her entitlement to mark-room dissolves into no more than her entitlement under rule 14 not to get hit.
  • @4 Y becomes entitled to mark-room from boats approaching the finishing line on starboard tack (either hot or DDW),  Because Y is manoeuvring below and outside the finishing mark, it is highly unlikely that any other boat on the finishing line side of the finishing mark is going to get overlapped outside her. but she is already wholly past the finishing line.  Any starboard tacker who might be required to afford Y mark-room would already have finished and would suffer no disadvantage (give Y no advantage) by giving mark-room.
  • @8 Y 'instantaneously' completes her penalty turn and gains mark-room:  there's nothing wrong with that:  entitlements change all the time, sometimes they're 'buffered' (for example by rule 15 or rule 18.2(b)), sometimes they're not.




Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 6:35am
Ah, I misinterpreted case 108, did not realize that 'advantage' was directly referring to rule 44.1(b).
I still have a problem with the notion that a boat can complete a penalty turn inside the zone and instantly gain entitlement to mark room. With no buffer, it gives them the right to barge in (not being subject to rule 15). Or am I overthinking this?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 7:05am
Remove a large chunk of rules and simply allow the marks to be touched, as long as they have been passed on the correct side.

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Robert


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 8:29am
Andy, 

As any law student will tell you, never rely on a headnote.

I'm not trying to kid you that this outcome was carefully considered and approved by the rule-makers:  I'd suggest that it is an unlikely and unusual situation that was never in contemplation.

Note that the 'unbuffered' flip-flop occurs @8 when Y passes head to wind (completes her penalty, ceases to be required to keep clear by rule 22.2, and simultaneously becomes required to keep clear by rule 13, so it's only going to affect a port tacker way deep of the layline coming in red hot.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 10:36am
Originally posted by 423zero

Remove a large chunk of rules and simply allow the marks to be touched, as long as they have been passed on the correct side.

Windsurfers have done this for years (not that most of them paid any notice beforehand mind you Ouch) and it is a licence to barge in at speed.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:19am
Would be Exciting to see large cats doing that.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:33am
Brass, In the scenario you have illustrated (downwind finish), indeed there is little chance of a conflict arising.
Take a different scenario when the finish is on a fetch/reach with a steady stream of boats... The penalty boat first tacks then gybes... Straight into the stream of boats, with a claim to mark room...
On a normal inside overlap at a mark, the zone provides the buffer. How would you propose a solution to the situation then?
Mine would be something like; Addendum case 108 or explanatory note (or whatever it takes) 'A boat taking a penalty turn within a mark zone forfeits any entitlement to mark room and cannot re-establish entitlement on completion of the penalty over other boats already in the zone'. How would you see that?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:43am
Thanks for the reaching example.  I agree that it's much more problematical.


I think the problem will be solved in the 2021 rules, where a new last sentence is added to rule 18.1



Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been given.


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 12:03pm
But does it? What about the boat that was outside the zone when mark room was first given (by another boat(s)). But is in the zone when penalty boat makes second 'claim' to mark room?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 1:16pm
All the boats outside the zone when the penalty boat touches the mark have given the penalty boat mark-room then, so no more mark room when they arrive.


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 4:11pm
I think it's fine.

The whole thing about no getting an advantage when breaking a rule and completing a penalty is different from this situation. They aren't gaining an advantage, they are limiting their losses. 

If they don't get room when going to the finish a second time, then how will they ever finish?


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 5:03pm
Mozzy, In the absence of other boats, there would be no problem in taking a penalty turn in the zone, but the issue is gaining an immediate entitlement to mark room in a crowded area without the other boats having any opportunity to give it. I would suggest that the penalty boat needs to sail outside the zone and 'slot in' the queue in an orderly manner at that point.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Oct 20 at 11:25am
Removing the rules can also cause confusion.

RS have (or used to have) a rule for their events that said if you hit a mark you didn't need to take a penalty. This was only for RS Open meetings.

Cue the issue when someone in club racing hits a mark, doesn't take a penalty and uses the defence of 'I sail an RS my class says I don't need to take a penalty'. Thankfully after explaining they were happy to accept it was only for Class Open events. It is a can of worms though..... similar to the Finn pumping rule (although that is easier as it requires a flag to be displayed).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74



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