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TheLaserClass

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13703
Printed Date: 20 Jan 21 at 10:10am
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Topic: TheLaserClass
Posted By: JimC
Subject: TheLaserClass
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 12:02pm
This follows on from discussion in the Ovington Laser topic, but I suggest it's significant enough to warrant separating out.

The headline is that a group of Laser class people, including a former International Class president, dissatisfied with aspects of the current Class management, notably the decision to remove Laser Performance Llc as a builder, have set up a rival class association which they have called the Laser Class, apparently supported by Laser Performance, and have applied for it to become an International Class.




Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 12:11pm
The first stage in their application was consideration by the WS equipment rules sub Committee. AIUI their task is to advise on the suitability of the class rules in the application. After minimal discussion (video of the whole meeting is on YouTube https://youtu.be/bnegmJFycX0 and its 1:40:00 in) my understanding is the sub committee's recommendation was to defer the application as the proposed class rules were not in a usable format.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 12:23pm
This could be an interesting topic.  Whilst I don’t think their odds of sustainable success are great, I would take slight exception to the way you have described it’s formation in the OP.  I would venture that it is not a rival class borne of dissatisfaction with ILCA, but a new class association that is associated with a new class of boat - the boat that is called Laser (in most territories) and build by the Rastegar empire. This distinction is important, any new design of boat can have an association attached to it.  

The terms “class”, “fleet”, “boat”, “design” and “class association” are often used interchangeably but they are different. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 12:29pm
The simple question from me would be is this new/old Laser class prepared to pay for the plaques on their new boats to WS, in which case for them it's win win, at the end of the day it's always about the money.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 12:36pm
Discussion on the new CA in the old topic started around page 13.
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13658&PN=13&title=ovington-laser#top" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13658&PN=13&title=ovington-laser#top


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 12:45pm
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/tlcapplicationtows31072020-[26602].pdf



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Robert


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 12:48pm
Apologies, I didn’t mean to thread drift so soon.  

So the application was deferred on a technicality that the rules don’t conform to the WS template (and may be badly written).  Easily rectified presumably. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 1:05pm
AIUI only Council makes decisions, although I think it can be over ruled by the General Assembly. The Equipment rules sub cttee makes recommendations on the rules, the Equipment cttee makes recommendations on the application, and Council decides on the application informed by the recommendations. The Equipment cttee is Sunday and Monday, and Council is the following Friday and Saturday.

I gained the impression that at least one person on the subcttee was unhappy with some of the actual content of the proposed rules, but probably to get an idea of how they work you'd need to listen to the discussion on other applications as well. I'm on a limited link here and didn't want to do that.



Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 1:11pm
Even if Rastegar and his empire now paid over all the historical and current design dues he should have paid to Bruce Kirby over the years and any other creditors he may have shafted in his travels, I'd still not choose to buy anything from him. Far as I can tell, he has no interest in sailing, just in milking a cash-cow monopoly. Having (finally!) been called out, his rearguard action that is TheLaserClass should be strangled at birth, as far as I am concerned.

Professional football clubs have 'fit and proper person' tests for club owners. Happily, sailing is mostly not in that world, but if it was, would Rastegar pass? 


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 1:15pm
The Laser class are seeking other builders, so hardly a platform purely for LPE.

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Robert


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by 423zero

The Laser class are seeking other builders, so hardly a platform purely for LPE.

If LP had paid the dues and behaved appropriately (letting in entitled WS inspectors, providing decent, consistent builds and QA, paying suppliers so that the official parts supply chain did not dry up being a few examples) we'd not have this mess. And strange that they can now sell boats at about half what they used to before they had $118 WS plaques taken away.

People and organisations that use and abuse positions of power then change their behaviour when they lose it or get called out will never get my respect (or my business if I can avoid it).




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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 1:41pm
This from EurILCA
• Changes to the class insignia, the use of the word Laser, and wording changes from ISAF to World Sailing, are all what I term 'hygiene' changes, alterations of form rather than function. Nevertheless, the first two are important, for they are dependent on the ongoing dispute with LPE and its geographical ownership of the Laser trademark and symbol. We should be cautious: one doesn't know, LPE and 'The Laser Class' just might roll over and cease to be an issue at any time: it would be a sad state of affairs if we (as ILCA members) changed the Constitution only for the LPE/Laser issue to collapse, leaving us two years down the line constitutionally tied to calling our sailboat and our Association something other than 'Laser'. (1 sailor


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Robert


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by fab100

Even if Rastegar and his empire now paid over all the historical and current design dues he should have paid to Bruce Kirby over the years and any other creditors he may have shafted in his travels, I'd still not choose to buy anything from him. Far as I can tell, he has no interest in sailing, just in milking a cash-cow monopoly. Having (finally!) been called out, his rearguard action that is TheLaserClass should be strangled at birth, as far as I am concerned.

Professional football clubs have 'fit and proper person' tests for club owners. Happily, sailing is mostly not in that world, but if it was, would Rastegar pass? 
+1

Its worth googling McLaren buggy lawsuit for some background on the guy behind LPE. I'm old enough to recall an ex Fireball sailor who was UK Prime Minster between 1970-4 and coined the phrase "the unaccptable face of capitalism".   I think this applies here too.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 2:04pm
Slight mixing of issues here, TLC came into being to promote traditional Lasers, they want nothing to do with Composite mast tops and mk2 sails.
LPE are at the moment TLC builder.

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Robert


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by 423zero

The Laser class are seeking other builders, so hardly a platform purely for LPE.

If LP had paid the dues and behaved appropriately (letting in entitled WS inspectors, providing decent, consistent builds and QA, paying suppliers so that the official parts supply chain did not dry up being a few examples) we'd not have this mess. And strange that they can now sell boats at about half what they used to before they had $118 WS plaques taken away.

People and organisations that use and abuse positions of power then change their behaviour when they lose it or get called out will never get my respect (or my business if I can avoid it).




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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Late starter

Originally posted by fab100

Even if Rastegar and his empire now paid over all the historical and current design dues he should have paid to Bruce Kirby over the years and any other creditors he may have shafted in his travels, I'd still not choose to buy anything from him. Far as I can tell, he has no interest in sailing, just in milking a cash-cow monopoly. Having (finally!) been called out, his rearguard action that is TheLaserClass should be strangled at birth, as far as I am concerned.

Professional football clubs have 'fit and proper person' tests for club owners. Happily, sailing is mostly not in that world, but if it was, would Rastegar pass? 
+1

Its worth googling McLaren buggy lawsuit for some background on the guy behind LPE. I'm old enough to recall an ex Fireball sailor who was UK Prime Minster between 1970-4 and coined the phrase "the unaccptable face of capitalism".   I think this applies here too.

Yes, I purposely left that additional fact out, trying to keep it about sailing and boats, but fair point


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by 423zero

The Laser class are seeking other builders, so hardly a platform purely for LPE.

and can be judged by the company they keep?


They say “reconstitute the original Laser class” so will that be back to wooden tillers and 3:1 kickers then?



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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 3:03pm
There’s no argument that Rastegar is not in it for the love of the game.  You might even call him unpleasant.  But that has no bearing on whether TLC has a right to existed whether Rastegar has the right to build boats. A lot of people seem to conflate whether they like someone with whether that person is breaking the law.  


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by A2Z

There’s no argument that Rastegar is not in it for the love of the game.  You might even call him unpleasant.  But that has no bearing on whether TLC has a right to existed whether Rastegar has the right to build boats. A lot of people seem to conflate whether they like someone with whether that person is breaking the law.  
I think its more around if LPE and/or Rastegar are behind TLC in some shape or another. I have no knowledge of this, but what TLC are doing is classic confusion marketing and helps LPE so one has to wonder. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Slight mixing of issues here, TLC came into being to promote traditional Lasers, they want nothing to do with... mk2 sails.
.

Someone should have told the person who slung their class rules together then. They most certainly include the mk 2 sail.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 4:39pm
The website does change, not so long ago it was inferred that they had passed 'equipment committee' stage and were waiting on 'World sailing' to adjudicate, it comes across differently now.
Seems very rude to accuse TLC and members of setting up to keep LPE in business.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by fab100

Even if Rastegar and his empire now paid over all the historical and current design dues he should have paid to Bruce Kirby over the years and any other creditors he may have shafted in his travels, I'd still not choose to buy anything from him. Far as I can tell, he has no interest in sailing, just in milking a cash-cow monopoly. Having (finally!) been called out, his rearguard action that is TheLaserClass should be strangled at birth, as far as I am concerned.

Professional football clubs have 'fit and proper person' tests for club owners. Happily, sailing is mostly not in that world, but if it was, would Rastegar pass? 

Spot on 



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Oct 20 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by 423zero

The website does change, not so long ago it was inferred that they had passed 'equipment committee' stage and were waiting on 'World sailing' to adjudicate, it comes across differently now.
Seems very rude to accuse TLC and members of setting up to keep LPE in business.

I doubt LPE (or whatever the current company is called) will be more than inconvenienced by the loss of 'official' ILCA recognition, they build several other popular classes including the Sunfish and Pico which will keep them going just fine...


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 8:26am
Originally posted by 423zero


Seems very rude to accuse TLC and members of setting up to keep LPE in business.

But as the original idea for TLC and the money to set up TLC came from the holding companies behind LPE , it’s not a difficult conclusion to come to Wink


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by 423zero


Seems very rude to accuse TLC and members of setting up to keep LPE in business.

But as the original idea for TLC and the money to set up TLC came from the holding companies behind LPE , it’s not a difficult conclusion to come to Wink
Source?


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 10:22am
Laughable that anyone considers the TLC a legitimate organisation when they have stolen copy writed documents from ILCA


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 10:34am
  Rugby League and Rugby Union model ?   Both could prosper and even benefit from the others existence with a bit of imagination rather than instinctive rancour.  Not sure the 'strategists (!)' on either side want to do much more than 'win' though... even if that means precipitating, accelerating and presiding over a short or longer term decline.   At some point Olympic 'status' could easily disappear either because sailing is 'out' of the circus or because if it survives it wants something 'different', 'better or whatever.   

Not sure anyone in their right minds would want any member of such a dysfunctional  family living next door ! .... or recommend their  products or companies to others.  Apparently too obsessed with their own issues to deal with the real world outside of their own self-built  bubble....  Too much weeping from all involved about their largely self-inflicted wounds .. and why they are  completely, absolutely and always were  in the ‘right’.  Do just  try and 'move on' there .... Confused



Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 11:21am
What happening now and what happens with multiple class Associations about sail number allocation? 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 11:26am
Originally posted by By The Lee

Laughable that anyone considers the TLC a legitimate organisation when they have stolen copy writed documents from ILCA
I'm not sure which document you are referring to but I'm guessing you mean the 'Laser Class Rules' which, 'cos the Laser/ILCA is an international class, are presumably, the property of World Sailing?
WRT LPE's right's to the boat formerly known as "the Weekender" either ILCA or World Sailing own the exclusive worldwide rights to the 'construction manual' or a licence to same, in which case they could prevent LPE from building 'Lasers', or LPE have a legitimate right to build lasers and, thus, a legitimate right to use the 'construction manual'. Since ILCA or WS have not sent a 'cease and desist' letter to LPE it's probably safe to assume that LPE have a legitimate right to build Lasers.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 11:42am
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by 423zero


Seems very rude to accuse TLC and members of setting up to keep LPE in business.

But as the original idea for TLC and the money to set up TLC came from the holding companies behind LPE , it’s not a difficult conclusion to come to Wink
Source?

Err the owner of LPE has been threatening the ILCA with setting up its own class association since it was deselected as a builder because of not allowing factory visits, as confirmed by members of the ILCA committee in various places . The evidence is out there,  you just have to look further than asking the 10 people that post on here.
If you want some hearsay evidence, when I was talking the the guys on the LPE stand at the dinghy show this year, when I asked why their boats didn’t have the proper WS/ILCA plaques, they said not to worry as they were going to set up their own class later in the year LOL


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 11:50am

■     ILCA is not legally able to seek new manufacturers for Laser products in LP territory without LP’s consent. LP territory covers the world excluding Australia, New Zealand (PSA) and Japan, Korea (PSJ). This is a simple matter of ownership of intellectual property and LP will enforce against any party who attempts to violate LP’s intellectual property rights.


■     ILCA can indeed appoint new builders in Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) and Performance Sailcraft Japan (PSJ) limited territory; however, neither of them can supply boats into LP territory without LP’s consent.


■     PSA has tried in the past to import illegally into LP territory by a variety of schemes. LP has successfully enforced its property rights against PSA and will continue to enforce its rights against PSA and any collaborating dealers or persons. The last of such legal action was in Belgium and it was adjudicated in favor of LP with the dealer involved filing for bankruptcy to avoid payment of award pursuant to the court judgment.

This is boats called 'Laser' not boats called 'ILCA'



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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:21pm
Ha ha 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Since ILCA or WS have not sent a 'cease and desist' letter to LPE it's probably safe to assume that LPE have a legitimate right to build Lasers.

Doesn't the multi million US court judgement against LPE demonstrate that they don't have that right? Not that it matters much since LPE are effectively defunct, and doubtless it will take another ten years and many lawyer's paydays to establish what rights LP LLC have.

But in any case LP are not claiming to build International Lasers, which would be the limits of World Sailing's rights.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:57pm
Looking forward, the biggest visible change sailors will see is in the branding of the boats. ILCA does not own or control the LASER trademark and all attempts to achieve a worldwide licensing agreement amongst the three trademark owners for the Laser name and the sunburst logo failed last summer. As a result, in order to comply with World Sailing’s Olympic Equipment Policy, ILCA undertook a rule change vote to remove the requirement that approved builders must also have the rights to use the Laser trademark. The rule change,  http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/12/01/ilca-updated-class-rules-published/" rel="nofollow - approved by 79% of the class members , will allow the class to “un-brand” and let new builders sell class legal equipment under alternate brand names. An important point to be made here is that there will no longer be artificial territories for the sale of class legal equipment – builders will now be allowed to compete directly against each other.
This is taken from ILCA page, link below.
http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/01/05/international-laser-class-association-the-past-present-and-future-of-our-class/


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Robert


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by By The Lee

Laughable that anyone considers the TLC a legitimate organisation when they have stolen copy writed documents from ILCA
I'm not sure which document you are referring to but I'm guessing you mean the 'Laser Class Rules' which, 'cos the Laser/ILCA is an international class, are presumably, the property of World Sailing?
WRT LPE's right's to the boat formerly known as "the Weekender" either ILCA or World Sailing own the exclusive worldwide rights to the 'construction manual' or a licence to same, in which case they could prevent LPE from building 'Lasers', or LPE have a legitimate right to build lasers and, thus, a legitimate right to use the 'construction manual'. Since ILCA or WS have not sent a 'cease and desist' letter to LPE it's probably safe to assume that LPE have a legitimate right to build Lasers.

Incorrect the ILCA class rules belong to ILCA and were stolen by the TLC. The TLC have now written their own version.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:59pm
Over the years licensed builders have come and gone, ultimately leading to the situation we see today where Performance Sailcraft Japan (PSJ) owns the trademark for Japan and Korea, Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) owns the trademark for Oceania and Velum (who licenses the trademark to LaserPerformance) claims rights to the LASER trademark in other parts of the world.
Taken from same page.


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Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:04pm
https://www.trademarkelite.com/europe/trademark/trademark-owner/VELUM%20LIMITED/243657

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by By The Lee

Laughable that anyone considers the TLC a legitimate organisation when they have stolen copy writed documents from ILCA
I'm not sure which document you are referring to but I'm guessing you mean the 'Laser Class Rules' which, 'cos the Laser/ILCA is an international class, are presumably, the property of World Sailing?
WRT LPE's right's to the boat formerly known as "the Weekender" either ILCA or World Sailing own the exclusive worldwide rights to the 'construction manual' or a licence to same, in which case they could prevent LPE from building 'Lasers', or LPE have a legitimate right to build lasers and, thus, a legitimate right to use the 'construction manual'. Since ILCA or WS have not sent a 'cease and desist' letter to LPE it's probably safe to assume that LPE have a legitimate right to build Lasers.

Incorrect the ILCA class rules belong to ILCA and were stolen by the TLC. The TLC have now written their own version.

I stand corrected the WS website has this to say on the matter "It is the responsibility of the ISAF Class Association to manage their Class Rules. All classes, especially those applying for status, are encouraged to use the ISAF Standard Class Rules template when writing their rules." however it's hard to see how one could be accused of stealing the rules for a boat you have the right to build. Sounds like ICLA are clutching at straws. WRT making their own set of class rules a few changes in wording would be sufficient and not much else would be acceptable to WS I guess given the requirement to use the WS rules template. 


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:27pm
What I'm still trying to understand is how ICLA and LPE can both build the 'Kirby Sailboat' (irrespective of what name they give it), surely one must be infringing the IP rights of the other?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:37pm
From a strictly IP stand there will not be any. What patents will have expired. Design registration would be the shape of the hull and they only last a very short time, less than five years. Trademarks will still be owned by someone. Anyone could take a mould of a Laser and sell boats off the mould so long as they don’t call it Laser. 

That said this is a far mor3 complex set of legal agreements and licensing. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:53pm
Forgive me for being thick but if that's the case I don't understand why a licence fee is paid to BKI or, now Global Sailing? It's not for the Laser name 'cos ICLA are no longer using that so what are they paying for (not suggesting that BK or Global who, presumably, paid good money for the design rights should not be getting some ongoing consideration for their work or investment)?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

it's hard to see how one could be accused of stealing the rules for a boat you have the right to build. Sounds like ICLA are clutching at straws.

Copyright exists in any piece of writing or drawing. What it's about is neither here nor there. TLC lifted the explanatory diagrams from the ILCA rules and rather than drawing their own. That's bang to rights infringement of copyright. No doubt they also nicked some wording as well. Copyright can be a complex subject, especially when there's complexities like the requirement to use the WS template, but the basic principle of write your own words and draw your own drawings shouldn't be that difficult.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Forgive me for being thick but if that's the case I don't understand why a licence fee is paid to BKI or, now Global Sailing?

It's all about contracts, not IP law. Historically one of the conditions to become an authorised Laser builder was that you had to sign up to a number of contracts, which included a contract to pay a small royalty to the design owner. The requirement to have that contract in place was embedded in the Laser Class rules. However if you don't want to be an authorised builder, but just build Laser shaped boats, then there's no requirement to sign any contracts, but what you build won't be an International Laser. Typically class rules for multi builder or home built classes will also have a designer's royalty embedded in some manner.



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 2:53pm
A major problem is, this has been going on for years, posters on sailing forums and social media have quoted opinions so often they now are taken has facts, they have become 'Urban myths' no matter how many times official sources and documents are cited, they are just ignored.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 3:03pm
Thanks for the explanations Jim C, it all makes a little more sense now.

432zero, was it ever thus (even before the internet we had "well it says so in the paper so it must be true" and, I suppose, "the bard sang it so it.....")


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 5:25pm
If my browsing of other online places is correct. Jim C is the nearest as you can be  to a expert on this subject . Also  normally the voice of reason . 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 9:09pm
'Well' That's us radical rabble rousers telt.

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Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Oct 20 at 1:21pm
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/tlcconstitution31072020-[26600].pdf
Revised constitution.


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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Oct 20 at 1:39pm
The Equipment committee has just voted to reject the application, and further proposes that the regulations are amended to make it clear that such applications will not be considered in future.

In brief discussion they were also very negative about a number of aspects of the application.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Oct 20 at 2:17pm
They are an elected body so its only over until the next election, nothing written in stone, if TLC are in it for the long term, they will be disappointed but, will probably be more determined.

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Oct 20 at 3:19pm
In theory I don't think it's over until council formally turn it down. The committees are just recommendations AIUI. In practice, probably best to listen to the tone of the discussion. It's https://youtu.be/6-jdKDQQkZc, and theLaserClass is just after they take a break about 2:12:30 in.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Oct 20 at 4:45pm
No positive comments, admission of a lot of prior verbal discussions, not in the public domain, admission of a similar situation, so not a precedent.
Examined membership and stated not one member is actively racing, didnt state, whether this was 'Laser' or any boat, (assuming they meant 'Laser')
Would be interesting to know how many sailors of any class are actually racing, I haven't sailed since March.
TLC, probably jumped the gun, next year would have been better, 12 months of history.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 25 Oct 20 at 11:39pm
This story has plenty more chapters to go . Lol 
Changing tack . Can I ask why you haven’t sailed since March ? Is it a club or a personal situation that has stopped you sailing.  All of my local clubs have been open since June . My own club has been open since June for social sailing and we have been back racing since the end of of July. True it’s not the same as it was before COVID. Club house is still closed , COVID measures are in place in the toilets and the landing stages and we are sailing one off races not series. But on a personal level , even with these measures in place, I am getting probably 90% of the fun of sailing that I had before and it’s doing wonders for my mental health  Smile


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 7:07am
No racing at my club, you have to book an appointment to sail, cruising only, which I don't do, so, let the ones who do, have my slot.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:59am
That’s a shame and very unusual. Can I ask what led your club to make this decision? I am assuming you are on the sea and it’s to do with the risks of rescue? 


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 11:13am
Back to LPE and TLC . Rumor is the LPE factory in Portugal is closed .
If it’s true , is it just because there is no demand or is production going to be outsourced to China which has already happened to most of their other products?


Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by JimC

The Equipment committee has just voted to reject the application, and further proposes that the regulations are amended to make it clear that such applications will not be considered in future.

In brief discussion they were also very negative about a number of aspects of the application.


 It's all  a  bit Judean people's front /. people's front of Judea isn't it 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 1:07pm
Grumpy cat, no it's a small lake, hence I don't want to cruise.
Nicola jayne, more like the 'Tooting popular front', becoming very 'Dads army'.

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Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 2:12pm
That makes it even more confusing why it’s not back racing , even in a limited way. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 6:37pm
Grumpy cat, only 35 members, most in at risk group, only one person on duty per session, this is safety boat only, no sailing at all if wind above a certain strength.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 7:26pm
I totally understand, in this situation you have the twin responsibilities of listening and protecting your members . I would never criticise any club on what they decide in this difficult time.



Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 7:34pm
Back on topic

I had to explain the situation to a parent at our club today. He was about to order an LPE boat for his son. It would have been a disaster as the kids all want to go to national youth events.
He only asked as he could not understand the reason why second hand ones were so expensive.
This is going to leave some purchasers who don’t understand rightfully angry.

Andy

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Andy Mck


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 9:28pm
RYA needs to send a message to all affiliated clubs explaining the issues.


-------------
Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by andymck

Back on topic

I had to explain the situation to a parent at our club today. He was about to order an LPE boat for his son. It would have been a disaster as the kids all want to go to national youth events.
He only asked as he could not understand the reason why second hand ones were so expensive.
This is going to leave some purchasers who don’t understand rightfully angry.

Andy


Sounds like something for the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading)Act.

They might find it very tricky to make it stick if any of the parents were savvy enough.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:11pm
I guess there's a little of 'caveat emptor' here, or in modern english 'if it looks too good to be true its too good to be true'. Not that that helps the parents who are not diligent enough, and at the end of the day, surely (in their eyes), 'a Laser is a Laser'... Maybe ILCA could offer a measurement scheme where they measure 'Laser hulls' without a WS Plaque and certify them as conforming, I see the cost being £1145 for a WS plaque Smile

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:18pm
It actually is a 'Laser' hopefully an accommodation can be reached sometime down the line, TLC doesn't appear to have much Internet traffic, perhaps they are close to fading, 'Kirby Torch class' style.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:20pm
At least the Kirby Torch had some tenuous claim to the moral high ground...

FWIW the LPE Laser XP/Composite topmast version is currently £45 more expensive than the Harken 'Class Legal' ILCA dinghy from Sailboats. You can still buy a LPE Radial or 4.7 for well under £4k though.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:29pm
I think they still have some Hulls with correct badges.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:45pm
They aren't advertising it as 'Class Legal' though, I'm sure they would be if they were...

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by 423zero

It actually is a 'Laser' hopefully an accommodation can be reached sometime down the line, TLC doesn't appear to have much Internet traffic, perhaps they are close to fading, 'Kirby Torch class' style.

Err no . It’s just a boat called laser in the uk and USA , as no one is now checking their construction anymore , no one knows if it still built to class rules anymore. TBH we don’t even know if they are even being built at all at the moment. 
It now has no connection to the world wide international laser class association that has run the class for decades .
Rasty never backs down , win or lose , so there is only two chances of an accommodation . 
Fat chance and no chance LOL


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:56pm
They are saying only sails aren't class legal, probably just mean spares though, they were advertising Hulls for two and a half grand recently, class legal ones.
By reaching an accommodation, I meant all the Hulls being accepted by UKLA and ILCA, if TLC disappear.

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Robert


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 7:24am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by 423zero

It actually is a 'Laser' hopefully an accommodation can be reached sometime down the line, TLC doesn't appear to have much Internet traffic, perhaps they are close to fading, 'Kirby Torch class' style.

Err no . It’s just a boat called laser in the uk and USA , as no one is now checking their construction anymore , no one knows if it still built to class rules anymore. TBH we don’t even know if they are even being built at all at the moment. 
It now has no connection to the world wide international laser class association that has run the class for decades .
Rasty never backs down , win or lose , so there is only two chances of an accommodation . 
Fat chance and no chance LOL
- It’s important to keep things factual.  Rastegar has the undisputed legal right to build and market boats called Laser and branded with a starburst logo in the UK, the EU, the former soviet block, the rest of Europe, Africa, North America, South America, Central America, the Middle East, China, the Indian sub-continent and beyond.  In fact, the whole world excluding South Korea, Japan and Oceania. 


- Rastegar is free to chose what this boat looks like and how it is built.  He cannot claim his boat was designed by Bruce Kirby, but it can look and be built* just as the Kirby boat is because any design rights that may have existed have long since ceased. Plagiarism is unethical and possibly bad business practice but it is not, of itself, illegal.  


- He and/or the boat owners are free to set up an organisation to coordinate racing activities for this class of boat - a class association.  If the class association believes it meets the published World Sailing criteria for becoming a recognised International class then it is free to apply for such status.  I do not know whether WS retain the right to refuse recognition if all criteria are demonstrably met. Coping sections of text from the ILCA class rules is a copyright infringement, though given that such rules have to conform to a standard WS template some duplication may be unavoidable.


- All of this is possibly moot if Rastegar has ceased production or if his reputation is so bad he can’t either finance his business or sell any products. But let’s not confuse the unethical or the undesirable with the illegal.


* With the exception of patented items such as the Mk2 sail which are legally protected.  



Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 8:07am
A2Z
Just because something is ‘legal’ does not mean we are obligated to go there.

We also make decisions based on our own values and ethics, not always going to the edge of the law.

I don’t own tabacco shares. And i chose, now there is a choice at last, hurrah, to sail the world’s most popular racing dinghy without a brass cent going to Rastegar. 

My Laser (sic) has needed some replacement, class legal, parts for ages, but I’ve been on a personal boycott of LP since it came out that Bruce Kirby was not being paid his dues, to the extent he took legal action.

If everyone took the same stand and we could make sure the less informed/interested were not duped, perhaps Rastegar would naff off out of sailing because his Laser activity had zero sales (hopefully making his other sailing products uneconomic to run in the process)


Gerald Ratner lost a jewelery empire with a careless jest, the ensuing media frenzy then totally alienating consumers from his business. I’d like to see Rastegar’s behaviour over the years, far far worse than Ratner’s, punished by consumer power and choice with the same ultimate result. Nothing to do with the law or ‘legal’.


-------------
http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 10:11am
Not forgetting 'World sailing' and ILCA were also lumped in with LPE, all three were found guilty, none of them have paid the six million dollars.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 10:13am
I quite agree, and I too have not and will not buy from LP.  That’s said, I also find ILCA’s actions questionable and I am not totally convinced that there are altruistic good intentions behind all of their moves, so they don’t hold the moral high ground in this sorry saga. Hence I still won’t be buying!


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 11:57am
Originally posted by 423zero

Not forgetting 'World sailing' and ILCA were also lumped in with LPE, all three were found guilty, none of them have paid the six million dollars.

Not sure that an actuate reading of the the events. Can Jim C shed a little light on this . 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 1:07pm
Grumpy cat, if you are unhappy with my post, do what everyone else does and do some research, instead of causing jimc to be embarrassed.

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 2:41pm
In the very early days of the Kirby/Global sailing/LPE/Quartermoon/Velum dispute ILCA and ISAF were listed as defendants on some minor aspects of the lawsuit. It appears to be US litigation practice that you need to throw everything against the wall, just in case, because you won't be allowed to bring it up later.

Anyway ILCA and World Sailing ceased to be parties to the lawsuit years ago, and there is absolutely no judgement against them. Goodness only knows where you got that from.

It was clear to me from the videos that TLC can apply all they like (as indeed I can apply for International status for the one off I built a few years ago) but there is not a cat in hell's chance they will be recognised for anything while ILCA is in existence. World Sailing is completely free to grant or refuse International status as they consider appropriate.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 2:56pm
423zero. I already know what I know .  I have been following this story for years in the ‘ other place’ so I have already done my research. But I have only been on y&y for a short time and I am trying to play nice and I have already noticed you don’t like being criticised in anyway. ( see your last post. ) 
So I thought it would be better if I asked the nearest thing there is to an expert of this whole mess to comment . But even that seems to have put your nose out of joint , sorry Cry

Jim C thanks for the  comment , shedding a little light on the subject. I hope you weren’t to embarrassed  Smile


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 3:04pm
Thanks for clearing that up Jimc, I will check my research and see if I am not letting facts get in the way of a good yarn. Or vice versa.

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Robert


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 3:20pm
So all they have to do is ensure the product is sufficiently different .... er .. er ...I thought that was what it was mostly about ?! 

So they end up positioning their product as a 'trainer' boat anyway ... 'Official' status is desirable but far from essential given a practical strategic approach.  The more ILCA et all goan and moan and complain the more they highlight the now 'unofficial' alternative  ... and the very obvious price gap.  Not saying I approve or like any of the associated nonsense or either side - and fortunately for most of us a bun-fight to watch from a safe distance..   However my 'bet' - the 'trainer' version is soon produced in the far east and in high volume, the pricing and margin gap grows larger and larger as the 'official' versions exisitance now leaves them little alternative - it may be their key target USP and one they will do well to enhance further still.  Recreational sailors, many club sailors and institutions preferentially purchase from them... A sub-set of their customers, growing beyond the 'unofficial' version open circuit  as it may emerge - grind their teeth but buy an 'official' version if they really end up aiming at national selection...  But they will only be a small proportion.   A 10% variance ? - no brainer they will buy the ILCA  but +25% ?  +35%  + 40+%  - no they will not !  The club level purists - well they will mostly buy ILCA ....but not at any price .... or forever.   WS approval may be sought and is desirable but imo is not essential by a very long way.   In a messy divorce there are usually few winners ...  Whoever survives long term, both or just one .. they will have to live with damage to their self-defined niche for a very long time indeed.   I'd not bet the farm on either long term. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 6:56pm

Announcement from ILCA

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/01/22/announcement-from-ilca/" rel="nofollow - JANUARY 22, 2019 http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/author/laserclass/" rel="nofollow - LASERCLASS http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/category/news/announcements/" rel="nofollow - ANNOUNCEMENTS ,  http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/category/news/announcements/class-announcements/" rel="nofollow - CLASS ANNOUNCEMENTS ,  http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/category/news/announcements/important-announcements/" rel="nofollow - IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENTS

In a  https://www.facebook.com/LaserPerformanceSailboats/posts/10156902815228426?__xts__%5b0%5d=68.ARCPlTbzmMamzTm7JTNqd-a6fyHQuLrTxZMLu1U-hPsE7M-_XbZBUdfjDWwPpGvfxfPtV_-kTxhAwDXXrzDji1Wjpe0O9FTs0DhVxfU5_bNrqUNo81fNn-IZwXpPcVJUXpJEjFbHUmYHNM9TqBfvm7Dyx5-BDKyC3hkjXxLufmtU6FS4pXWwFrSyygJYivpzsBJv2ILAHGF5Zm6rNAogWfyFReaD9JHmNuLLKesybMk5deKO3h4RN5xETzwx4TTVlXyN6f0NWXgrKoug-KKfJFpuPgeGrn9k_8E-n5hmUrsSNS3C_4B4FnmY8AVt5CT6YzVnJiF27VvVqA&__tn__=-R" rel="nofollow - recent statement  released on Facebook and circulated to various media sources, Laser Performance has claimed, among other things, that their company is “suffering from an onslaught of litigation and legal challenges from the International Laser Class Association in coordination with Bruce Kirby and his Australian partners at the Performance Sailcraft Pty group….” The statement goes on to say that this has caused “a diversion of millions of dollars into legal fees which would have been otherwise available to our sailing community initiatives.”

ILCA strongly and adamantly denies these claims. ILCA is not a party to any lawsuit against any person, entity or builder, including Laser Performance, and has never initiated any lawsuits nor coordinated or conspired with any other entity in bringing any litigation or legal challenges. 

While ILCA was originally named as a co-defendant in a 2013 lawsuit brought by Bruce Kirby in Connecticut District Court against Laser Performance, ILCA, ISAF (as World Sailing was called at the time) and others, ILCA has since been dismissed from that suit. ILCA understands that the lawsuit in Connecticut is ongoing, but strongly denies that we have caused any other party to incur legal expenses, large or small, because of lawsuits brought by the class. 

From the beginning of the legal actions in Connecticut, ILCA has encouraged all parities to look for an amicable solution outside of the court system and has attended several settlement meetings in an attempt to help the litigants reach a resolution to their legal disputes. ILCA finds it highly unfortunate that money (much less millions of dollars of legal fees) may have been spent on this case and we continue to encourage the litigants to settle their dispute as quickly as possible.

ILCA will continue to monitor any developments in legal cases affecting the class that are on-going or new ones that might arise, and follow any legal requirements made of our organization, with a goal of ensuring our members can continue to enjoy our sport.

  • https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/01/22/announcement-from-ilca/&t=Announcement%20from%20ILCA" rel="nofollow -


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by JimC


World Sailing is completely free to grant or refuse International status as they consider appropriate.
You may be right about this, but to me it is not obviously the case.  The guidelines for becoming a World Sailing Class outline the conditions necessary to be considered for approval, but are they necessary and sufficient?
http://https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingClassEntryGuidelines2019-%5B24647%5D.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingClassEntryGuidelines2019-%5B24647%5D.pdf
The introduction states “ World Sailing Class status is given to classes which offer a high standard of international competitive sailing and satisfy the relevant ISAF criteria.”  
To me this indicates meeting the necessary conditions is sufficient - if you meet the criteria (currently TLC do not) then WSC status “is given” not “may be given”. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 7:52pm
10.3 There shall be an executed agreement between World Sailing Limited., theClass/Owners Association and where relevant the Trademark, Trade Name and the Copyright Owner. This agreement shall include at a minimum the following matters: (a) define, if any, the ownership of the Copyright, Trade Name and Trademark and establish the rights granted and the responsibilities, obligations and restrictions that apply to the use of such rights generally and among the parties to the agreement;
ConfusedThis is a can of worms Confused


-------------
Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 8:55pm
WS regs
10.1 Classes which offer a high standard of international competitive sailing and satisfy the respective criteria set out below may be designated as a World Sailing Class Association.

My emphasis.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 9:30pm
I would add another 'proof' 'that there is communication between the members of applying class' . I haven't been able to find any digital chat, other than official releases.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 10:22pm
Nice counter example Jim!


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 9:32am
Interesting that LPE are advertising new "TLC Plaqued Laser 1" boats for sale, hull only for £2.5k and a full XD boat for £3867.  TLC seem to be an important part of the LPE sales pitch, and muddies the water around what's an official class legal "Laser". 

Feels like there's been some coordination between TLC and LPE. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 9:48am
Interesting that on Monday the LP website was showing the Laser XD at nearly £6k...

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 9:56am
LPE and the TLC change daily.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 9:59am
The LPE ads I saw earlier were on Apollo Duck rather than their website.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 10:02am
That's one hell of a boat for £3,500.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 7:25am
https://www.google.com/local/place/fid/0x4877146cfcd8fab3:0xb666f3c0f089a644/photosphere?iu=//geo0.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid%3DUcVZQP9niG0DXHXl13Y4lQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dlu.gallery.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D160%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D265.7184%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100&ik=CAISFlVjVlpRUDluaUcwRFhIWGwxM1k0bFE%3D
For sale /to let sign outside 'Laser performance', can't find anything on 'Knight Frankley' website though.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 9:15am
Was that a manufacturing base ?   I recall picking up new Lasers from the factory in Banbury back in the day, but that was years back.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 9:19am
Not sure, sign board also has Maclaren on it, think that is pushchairs.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 9:25am
Originally posted by 423zero

That's one hell of a boat for £3,500.

I wonder what the unit price is for a fleet lease deal of say 12, maybe 24? 

That'd be one good way to encourage some local class racing... everyone gets a shiny new boat to sail, they'd be booked out like squash courts when that was also once popular.


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 9:28am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by 423zero

That's one hell of a boat for £3,500.

I wonder what the unit price is for a fleet lease deal of say 12, maybe 24? 

That'd be one good way to encourage some local class racing... everyone gets a shiny new boat to sail, they'd be booked out like squash courts when that was also once popular.
I wonder if that price is for surplus stock that is being sold off due to the closure of the Long Buckby factory ?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 10:30am
If you put LP address in Banbury, in Google Maps, go on satellite it is a haulage company, unless I have wrong address.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 10:34am
Originally posted by 423zero

If you put LP address in Banbury, in Google Maps, go on satellite it is a haulage company, unless I have wrong address.

LP has been in Long Buckby for years (I picked up a new one from there about 15 years or so ago, maybe longer). I think they still used the factory in Banbury for manufacturing until fairly recently though, the yard might have been rented out though.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 10:43am
So if I use google maps to look at the LPE UK sites in Long Buckby and Banbury they are either closed or being used for other purposes. I don't see any signs of boat building or distribution.



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