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Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Race Management
Forum Discription: For race officers and competiors to discuss the topic
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13693
Printed Date: 17 Jan 21 at 4:10am
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Topic: Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules
Posted By: NickM99
Subject: Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 9:54am
I assume that many clubs have SIs for club racing that says something like "All races will be governed by the rules as defined in The ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2017-20(RRS)" and then turn a blind eye to Rule 78, particularly with regard e.g. to Laser equipment.  

Have any clubs inserted in SIs a change to Rule 78 with a paragraph along the lines of "The Sailing Committee may at its discretion permit boats that do not comply with class rules or have a valid certificate to race but may apply a separate handicap and/or exclude a boat from participating in single class races." ?



Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:27am
You are not allowed to do that. What most clubs do to get around it is create a club class that specifies what is and is not permitted.

For example you could create an SCLaser class which has the same rules as the ILCA dinghy with the exception that non-compliant sails may be used at the discretion of the ILCA fleet captain/club/sailing committee. All sails must be a direct replacement for the Class Compliant sail.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:38am
The other way is to say that measurement protests are not permitted (not sure if you can still do that). 

That does raise other concerns though as you cant stop a boat that has clearly been modified to increase performance unless you go down the rule 2 or rule 69 route or impose a PY penalty.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:53am
An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...

You mean Laser Performance sell training and 'compliant but no royalty button' sails.

Not sure what Ovington and the other new builders will be doing.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 11:26am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...

You mean Laser Performance sell training and 'compliant but no royalty button' sails.

Not sure what Ovington and the other new builders will be doing.

Sailboats and other retailers are selling them so I assume that is with the blessing of the ILCA. LPE can't sell ILCA 'compliant' sails (compliant = "used to  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/describe" rel="nofollow - describe  something that  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/obey" rel="nofollow - obeys  a  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/particular" rel="nofollow - particular   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rule" rel="nofollow - rule  or  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/law" rel="nofollow - law ").


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by NickM99

I assume that many clubs have SIs for club racing that says something like "All races will be governed by the rules as defined in The ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2017-20(RRS)" and then turn a blind eye to Rule 78, particularly with regard e.g. to Laser equipment.


What do you mean 'turn a blind eye'?

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/955?page=4" rel="nofollow - Case 39
Sportsmanship and the Rules
Rule 60.2(a), Right to Protest; Right to Request Redress or Rule 69 Action
A race committee is not required to protest a boat. The primary responsibility for enforcing the rules lies with the competitors.

Originally posted by jeffers

You are not allowed to do that.


Why?

It looks quite neat to me, but you have to be careful with your SI, because PY relies fundamentally on a List of Class Handicaps.


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 1:19pm
Jeffers, why do you say you cannot change Rule 78?  I frequently see in SIs "The following Rules will be subject to change..." and then elsewhere in the SIs it specifies what the local amendment is.  Whether it is a good idea to do this with Rule 78 is another matter.


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 1:27pm
Brass, sorry, loose drafting on my part.  I was thinking of pre-empting the situation which as others has said is unlikely in club racing, where a competitor protests another boat for being out of class.  

Incidentally, even at national level there can be a lot of tolerance.  For example I believe the Mirror Association tolerates unmeasured boats competing in the Nationals in the Bronze Fleet,  but they are excluded from qualifying for fleet prizes. (Not sure if that is covered in the SIs or not.)


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 2:09pm
Loose drafting from me too, my second post says about not allowing measurement protests which is effectively that same thing but opens a huge can of worms.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...

You mean Laser Performance sell training and 'compliant but no royalty button' sails.

Not sure what Ovington and the other new builders will be doing.

Sailboats and other retailers are selling them so I assume that is with the blessing of the ILCA. LPE can't sell ILCA 'compliant' sails (compliant = "used to  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/describe" rel="nofollow - describe  something that  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/obey" rel="nofollow - obeys  a  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/particular" rel="nofollow - particular   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rule" rel="nofollow - rule  or  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/law" rel="nofollow - law ").

You would need to speak to ILCA or UKLA. Most of the dealers/retailers are Laser Performance retailers and not ILCA/Ovington/Devoti dealers (Ovi and Devoti being the newly appointed builders among others).

In reality ILCA has very little say over what a dealer sells. A number of years back LPE strong armed a number of chandlers in the UK and US to stop them selling replica sails and parts.

The sails they sell as 'Class Compliant' are compliant in every way except the important one which is that the Royalty has not been paid to the rights holder so no button. The 'training sails' could be made of anything and cut differently.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 3:14pm
Sailboats are selling ILCA dinghies not LPE Lasers and appear to list the 'official' class compliant and training sails.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 5:48pm
LPE Lasers are only non compliant in the UKLA, (they have their own class set up, give it 6 months and it will be more visible), hopefully common sense will prevail at the clubs.
There are no non compliant boats of any class at my club, so not sure what would happen if say, someone turned up with a 'Enterprise' that wasn't class legal. 
The club can race what it likes, if they wanted to, even race how they like, they can allow crashing into each other, wouldn't be very good if they then submitted the results to PY committee.


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Robert


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Sailboats are selling ILCA dinghies not LPE Lasers and appear to list the 'official' class compliant and training sails.

As I said ILCA (and by extension the UKLA) have no control over what dealers/retailers sell or who they source from. Sailboats are selling ILCAs made by PSA, I doubt their sails comes from Oz they are likely sourced from elsewhere.

As the market in the UK is established for training/replica/non-royalty paid sails they would be missing out on revenue if they didnt service it.

Or it could simply be a case of stock they already had and they are running it down now they are selling ILCAs. Its a question they might answer if you asked them nicely.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Oct 20 at 3:20pm
I got an opinion on RRS78 from the RYA a few years ago. Basically a boat not maintained to its class rules ceases to be a member of that class and is not subject to RRS78.

So IMHO its all down to the NOR, which is distinctly sketchy in most club racing. The NOR states what boats are permitted to enter a race. If the NOR specifies International Laser, and you enter a boat that is not an International Laser then that's cheating. But I suspect that the precise letter of the NOR for most club racing would struggle to prohibit a Laser 2000.


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 08 Oct 20 at 5:18pm
That is an interesting take on RRS 78.  I looked at an old Siljuice Great Lakes NoR and it said under eligibility "The event is open to MONOHULL dinghies only (Includes Vortex). To be eligible boats shall have an event yardstick (See Appendix 1)."   So if that wording is adopted again for the next series they will presumably have to publish separate if identical handicaps for the ILCA and LP dinghies.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 12:09am
Nick and Paul,

I get your drift.

I think the operation of PY for the NotALaser Class has hitherto relied on a 'gentleperson's agreement' not to protest for class non-compliance.

I don't have a problem with this: I think it's commonsensical and shows a nice 'club' spirit.

Just let someone try to race a Rooster tall rig of the Laser PY, and I bet there'll be protests soon enough, and rightly so.

Does anyone know how the new NotALaser Class Association treats 'replica' sails etc? Does the NotALaser Class permit RealLaser Class parts and equipment?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 9:17am
https://www.thelaserclass.com/

This is their site.

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Robert


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 9:35am
Originally posted by 423zero

https://www.thelaserclass.com/

This is their site.

Wow, what a mess ... I thought for a moment that a group of sailors had got together to create an umbrella for ILCA, PSE, replica sails etc. ... but this is not the case


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 9:49am
They aren't going to allow carbon top mast or mk2 sails by the look of it, had nearly 800 members worldwide on April 2020.

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Robert


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 11:38am
I wonder who's really behind this, and is thelaserclass.com more than a website designed to sow confusion and generate a view that says ICLA/Laser, what's the difference ?   I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist but I wonder if LPE are behind this as it feels like classic confusion marketing and LPE would gain more than most from it. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 1:40pm
'Heini' Wellman, who is president of thelaserclass.com was president of world sailing.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 2:21pm
LPE are marketing a mk 2 sail and compost top mast so maybe they are not entirely responsible... And Heini has decent credentials.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 3:29pm
The compost topmast is completely recycled!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 4:15pm
Ouch bludie spoll chuckers.....

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 4:39pm
Watts rung wiv spill chequers?

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 4:48pm
Thae alwuz get my mucking furds wuddled...

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 12:59pm
moved to Ovington Laser Topic


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by JimC



One should note, with TLC membership, that it's free, and there were some interesting to Laser sailors videos posted which required people to sign up.

Sounds ideal!


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Brass



Does anyone know how the new NotALaser Class Association treats 'replica' sails etc? Does the NotALaser Class permit RealLaser Class parts and equipment?

You let yourself down by disparagingly calling it NotALaser Class Association.  The boats in this class are actually called Lasers and the sails have the long recognised Laser emblem on them. 

On the other hand the class you refer to as the RealLaser Class does not (in the overwhelming majority of the world) call itself a Laser or have a Laser logo on it.  So which one is the real Laser class?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 1:21pm
moved to Ovington Laser Topic


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 1:30pm
Why?  For sure itís a real class, it is the real ILCA class.  But not the only real Laser class. TLC is just as much a real class for a type of boat known as Laser.  Which isnít to say I think it (TLC) has a great future, but it is a legitimate (Laser) class.



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Oct 20 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by Brass

Nick and Paul,

I get your drift.

I think the operation of PY for the NotALaser Class has hitherto relied on a 'gentleperson's agreement' not to protest for class non-compliance.

I don't have a problem with this: I think it's commonsensical and shows a nice 'club' spirit.

Just let someone try to race a Rooster tall rig of the Laser PY, and I bet there'll be protests soon enough, and rightly so.

Does anyone know how the new NotALaser Class Association treats 'replica' sails etc? Does the NotALaser Class permit RealLaser Class parts and equipment?

When I was my clubs Laser Fleet Captain (back in the day). we agreed at a Sailing Committee meeting to allow racing with replica sails at club events only.

We created a NotQuiteALaser class and the rules were the same as the class rules of the International Laser with the except that replica sails may be used as long as they were:

a) A direct replacement for the original sail

b) The brand of replica sail was 'approved' by the current Laser fleet captain. 

We had a rudimentary measuring process but most of the replica brands at the time were fine (so Rooster, iSails, Intensity et al)

Every other part of the boat had to comply and for Open events only the genuine item was permitted.

It wasnt perfect but it meant that those without deep pockets could afford a new sail every year rather than every 2nd or 3rd year so stayed as competitive as they could.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74



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