Print Page | Close Window

Tacking etiquette ..

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13670
Printed Date: 22 May 22 at 11:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Tacking etiquette ..
Posted By: Bandin
Subject: Tacking etiquette ..
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 10:18am
Quick question...

So you're on port.. windward of you is another boat (also on port). You want to tack onto starboard but the other boat is just taking you way out to the layline... How much of a gap would you need to be able to tack onto starboard and call him to tack also? Just enough space to complete the tack or is there some ettiquette/rule involved here?



Replies:
Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 11:15am
Rules 13 and 15 are the most relevant here.

Rule 13: while you are tacking you must keep clear of any boat that is not tacking. So if he has to change course to avoid you before you have completed your tack you have broken rule 13.

But then rule 15 comes into play: at the moment you complete your tack (and assuming that he hasn't also tacked) you become right of way boat by being on starboard tack when he is on port tack, BUT rule 15 says that you still have to initially give him room to keep clear - you have to give him enough time and space to keep clear of you without him having to make an unseamanlike maneuver or start that maneuver before you have completed your tack. If he is going to have to tack to keep clear of you then you need to give him enough time and space to make a seamanlike tack (and he doesn't need to start that maneuver until you have completed your tack). Likewise, if he is going to have to duck to keep clear of you, you need to be far enough in front of him that he can safely go behind you without having to make an unseamanlike bear away starting at the point when you completed your tack (and not before).


NB At no point do you have the right to hail him to tack (unless you are approaching an obstruction).

(For the experts in the room, yes I know I have ignored some of the finer details of the rules.)


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 11:20am
Yes, Rule 15 :- "ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY

When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boatís actions.

So you can't just slam dunk a tack and expect them to disappear, they do not have to take action to avoid you until it is clear you are tacking.



-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 11:21am
You have to be able to tack and complete before he has to start responding (13). He only needs to tack normally and not crash tack. (15) Any collision is likely to go against you as long as they responded.
You may need to be prepared to tack back or avoid if clear astern (12) or windward boat (11)
This is always a tricky one in fleet racing and if you desperately donít want to go right you may be better slowing and tacking behind.



-------------
Andy Mck


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

they do not have to take action to avoid you until it is clear you are tacking.

Sorry Sam, but the other boat does NOT have to take action when it becomes clear that you are tacking (unless that is necessary to avoid contact, in which case the tacking boat has already broken rule 13). It is only once the tacking boat has COMPLETED their tack and become right of way boat that the other boat has to start to take action to keep clear.


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by GML


Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">they do not have to take action to avoid you until it is clear you are tacking.</span>

Sorry Sam, but the other boat does NOT have to take action when it becomes clear that you are tacking (unless that is necessary to avoid contact, in which case the tacking boat has already broken rule 13). It is only once the tacking boat has COMPLETED their tack and become right of way boat that the other boat has to start to take action to keep clear.


The interpretation in the case book includes thinking time of 1 to 2 seconds before they have to react. I think itís 27, but check.

-------------
Andy Mck


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by andymck

The interpretation in the case book includes thinking time of 1 to 2 seconds before they have to react. I think itís 27, but check.

Case 27 doesn't actually say that a boat is entitled to 1 to 2 seconds of thinking time, it merely notes that in the specific circumstances of that case the boat concerned "had perhaps one to two seconds to decide what to do and then do it", implying that that wasn't sufficient time for them to avoid contact, and hence they didn't break rule 14.

How much room (time and space) a boat needs to keep clear when another boat acquires right of way will depend upon the specific facts of each case, including e.g. the type of boat and the conditions at the time.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by GML

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

they do not have to take action to avoid you until it is clear you are tacking.

Sorry Sam, but the other boat does NOT have to take action when it becomes clear that you are tacking (unless that is necessary to avoid contact, in which case the tacking boat has already broken rule 13). It is only once the tacking boat has COMPLETED their tack and become right of way boat that the other boat has to start to take action to keep clear.

Yes, you are right, the tacking boat does not have RoW until she reaches close hauled but if it is obvious she is tacking the keep clear boat cannot claim extra time to 'have a think about it', she must be prepared to take action the moment RoW hits close hauled. I chose my words badly but, in the real world, it would be a foolish skipper who claimed he thought RoW was bluffing when she tacked.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 8:19pm
No but a hard protest to loose when you state in the room, as soon as she completed i assessed I would not keep clear and began a seaman like manoeuvre.
As has been seen from case 27
Rule 15 gives yo sufficient time for a response, and that point is when the leeward boat has reached a close hauled corse. Not before, and actually I did misquote as the interpretation, which suggests one to two seconds was not enough.
It also points out that the windward boat does not have to anticipate the tack at all.
So no. You donít say you thought they were bluffing. You just say as soon as I saw they had completed I tried to keep Keep Clear in a seaman like way and I was unable to do so.
You have at least to check to windward that you are able to tack and not commit the same breech of the rules.

Interestingly if leeward looks like causing a collision and tacks back even if windward Has to tack.
This is usually judged no incident.

-------------
Andy Mck


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 9:19pm
It's always going to depend on the boats, the conditions and the distances/timings but for all practical purposes I think my assessment is reasonable. You are not expected to anticipate but would be foolish not to do so, collisions are slow...

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Yes, you are right, the tacking boat does not have RoW until she reaches close hauled but if it is obvious she is tacking the keep clear boat cannot claim extra time to 'have a think about it', she must be prepared to take action the moment RoW hits close hauled. I chose my words badly but, in the real world, it would be a foolish skipper who claimed he thought RoW was bluffing when she tacked.


Indeed, P needs to be mentally prepared to respond, just as she needed to be while she was windward give way on the same tack, but she is not required to take any physical action whatsoever until S reaches her close hauled course, except possibly to keep watching S, to detect that moment, otherwise, the first action might be to give preparatory verbal instructions to her crew, without any actual movement, as long as movement followed.

Crew can remain fully hiked, runner hands not in station, sheets cleated off (if that's the way your roll).

But note, depending on the boat and the conditions, tacking all standing without releasing the headsail might be perfectly seamanlike.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Sep 20 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It's always going to depend on the boats, the conditions and the distances/timings but for all practical purposes I think my assessment is reasonable. You are not expected to anticipate but would be foolish not to do so, collisions are slow...


The difference between rules and tactics.

If they are far enough to leeward to make a tack dodgy but possible, as windward boat crack off a couple of degrees and close the gap enough that a tack isn't an option. Then tack when you want to.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 08 Sep 20 at 5:25pm
There is no etiquette. There are rules. You are either the keep clear boat or right of way. In this scenario the boat wanting to tack is required to keep clear. Slow down and then tack and go behind would be the obvious solution. If the other boat is going the wrong way you will overtake them...



Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 08 Sep 20 at 5:42pm
So, quick question (cos I think I've done it)...so you are watching the boat to leeward who might be getting ready to tack onto Stbd...so you foot off a bit and try to close the gap so that they can't tack, complete, and allow time and opportunity. Is that legal?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Sep 20 at 5:54pm
Yes, you have to keep clear as they are RoW boat but as long as you do so you are free to sail any course you choose. In practice the advisability or not of doing so would depend how far apart you were and how far ahead they were. RoW has two choices, foot off a little to gain room to tack and hope to put you about or tack and duck your stern hoping you'd overstated and they'd get to the mark first.

Originally posted by Rupert

The difference between rules and tactics.

Yup...


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 9:20am
Pretty standard tactics approaching a starboard layline on port. 

If the leeward boat is too close to the windward boat, so they cannot complete the tack to starboard, then this gives the windward boat freedom to hold the leeward boat beyond the layline and make the tack to starboard when they have a comfortable lay.

The leeward boat has two tactical options to combat this.
1) Luff aggressively (assuming overlap established from behind) so that the windward boat tacks off before the lay. This only works from a long way out, or if there is significant starboard still to do and not a lot of boats on the lay.  
2) Foot off to create enough gap so that a tack can completed (sometimes called 'gaping off'. The leeward boat is then free to tack on a layline which suits them. The windward boat will then have decision to tack under and tight on the lay, or duck, concede position, but sail a safer layline. 

You can see this play out from 5:50 onward in this video
[TUBE]79X_-cScgm0[/TUBE]
5:55 we tack on a port boats leebow, for a long port approach to the windward mark. I was hoping to leebow them and pinch up, then tack clear ahead on to starboard at the layline. 
up to 7:12 I try to squeeze them out, but it doesn't work. 
7:12 onwards they are controlling in that I can't complete a tack to starboard, they hold us out past the layline. Perhaps I should have footed off to create a tacking gap, but in this instance it would have meant going out in to more current. So I just accept them holding us out past the layline. 

Lesson really was to have crossed them a 5:40 and been the inside boat in less current. 


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 10:25am
The big lesson is also you are usually racing against a fleet not an individual, two boats can go faster by ignoring the boat on boat tactics till the last round. Concentrate on your strategy against the fleet.
As soon as you are pinching to lee bow, you may both be slow. But not gaining on each other. Whereas conceding that they are in the better position and both sailing fast may gain more places.

Andy

-------------
Andy Mck


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by andymck

Concentrate on your strategy against the fleet.

Andy


Wise words.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com