Print Page | Close Window

Aero 9

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13669
Printed Date: 01 Dec 20 at 12:25am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Aero 9
Posted By: H2
Subject: Aero 9
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 10:46am
I would be really interested to hear from Aero 9 sailors - I have heard people say that the 9 is hard to get going relative to its handicap and certainly I have often seen the 7s and 9s very close together on the water which would (possibly) imply that there is little benefit to using the 9. Last weeks nationals had a small band of 9's sign up and then they just folded into the 7 fleet so in effect there was no 9 nationals. Is there a future for the 9?

-------------
H2 #115



Replies:
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 2:00pm
The thread from Cirrus detailing the evolution of rig on his development single hander recently suggested that the benefit of an "oversize" rig is marginal in terms of speed across the wind range and to some degree narrows the usable wind range.

Bigger is not always better?

   


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 2:02pm
What does this place do to formatting????? Cry



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 2:45pm
Weight carrying is more a function of hull form than sail area IMO, adult sailors mostly fall in the  65-105 kg weight range but that's a large variance and a hull that works well for a 65kg lightweight is never going to work well for a 105kg big guy, and vice versa. To me the Aero looks like a lightweights boat so the big sail can't sufficiently compensate for the extra 40kg of displacement much in the same way that a Phantom is going to be an unwieldy beast for a 65kg sailor even if carrying a much smaller sail than the standard rig.  

Perhaps if any of our yacht designing contributors are reading they could chip in and point out the flaws in my reasoning?


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Do Different

What does this place do to formatting????? Cry


From what I can see it just doesn't do formatting Wacko


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 3:00pm
The Aero hull is too light for it to carry a large person. The weight of the sailor is too big a proportion of the whole package. Overpowering it isnt going to help.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 3:14pm
Didn't the 'Laser' Rooster sail die, due to similar issues? Perhaps Hull optimum weight range and extra wind resistance from larger sail, negates what would appear to be a obvious step up.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 4:00pm
From the few I've seen, the 9s look really hard work above a 3


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 4:13pm
The Rooster 8.1 has a current PN as of 2020 so there are still a few out there. There's a guy sailing an Aero 9 and 7 at L&L, he's done ok in the Wednesday night series on the 9 but sailed the 7 on Sundays (and done ok there too). He's not a big guy though. 

The Blaze Halo and Fire (11.4 and 8.8 against the Blaze rig's 10.4) don't get much use but the Blaze rig is pretty good over a fairly wide range of conditions and sailor weights so there's not much incentive.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Weight carrying is more a function of hull form than sail area IMO, adult sailors mostly fall in the  65-105 kg weight range but that's a large variance and a hull that works well for a 65kg lightweight is never going to work well for a 105kg big guy, and vice versa. To me the Aero looks like a lightweights boat so the big sail can't sufficiently compensate for the extra 40kg of displacement much in the same way that a Phantom is going to be an unwieldy beast for a 65kg sailor even if carrying a much smaller sail than the standard rig.  

Perhaps if any of our yacht designing contributors are reading they could chip in and point out the flaws in my reasoning?

I think this is the answer actually. The aero hull is aimed at a lighter helm and struggles to carry the weight needed to utilise the larger sail.


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 04 Sep 20 at 8:54pm
In our club the 7 and 9 success seem reasonably balanced, although somone like JimC may have done the analysis on whether the data supports that. Curiously all the 9 sailors seem better sailors and when joining in with the 7 sailors sailing a 7, completely dominate the results and rarely get split (with me being at the back of the 9 sailors)

From experience, I would say that the advantage of the 9 upwind is small, but the advantage reaching or off-wind significant, so the relative competitiveness is probably down to the nature of the course. I'm about 88kg these days, down from 97kg when I owned a Phantom.




Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 Sep 20 at 10:03am
From a design perspective in displacement mode one might design a boat to float to its lines at the design displacement with the transom just kissing the water ... though something so conventional might not have limited Jo Richards ... so with such a light boat it is probably fair to say that a heavy person is going to sink the transom or will have to sit further forward, and so the boat wonít be sailing at its optimum.

I suspect that the Aero 9s strength is its ability to perform better in light winds, rather than to carry more weight.

As an observer the Aero 9 can appears to be suboptimal upwind in a blow where the windage and light weight seem to work against it.

Aeros seem to fly off wind regardless of rig size, I guess that the key is being able to get to the windward mark in one piece for the fun downwind!


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 7:42am
I've seen the 8.1 popular at ditch locations where the wind comes over banks and reeds and height is really useful. These locations would possibly suit the Aero 9 too.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 9:33am
With limited experience of sailing the Aero (both '7' and '9') I think the '7' is much the better all-round rig. It will not suit everyone for all of the time, sure, but the general impression is/was that it could be the optimal one for 'most of the people / most of the time'.  You can scale things on suitable platforms both 'up' and on some 'down' .. but not without limitations.  The '9' is possibly right on the upper boundary beyond which you would really need to scale the hull up a tad as well.   If you spend a few years racing boards  you know this already... 'big' rigs do not necessarily translate into 'faster' or 'better' all other things being equal.  The '9' is great in very light conditions ... but many will be as quick or quicker with the more practical '7' in any 'proper' breeze...  and things will be very much more in the boats (and most helms) comfort zone.   Just an 'external' view of course !!


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 9:34am
I sail at 78kg and have a 7 and a 9 rig. I use the 9ífor midweek evening races where there is likely going to be a drop off in wind strength. I find the 9 is significantly faster upwind and downwind in those conditions. But once the seven or even 5 are up to hull speed there is minimal difference upwind and then like the laser the smaller rig actually can be quicker.
So you have to rely on downwind speed.
The next issue is then the bigger guys changing down once the wind is up. Itís much more accepted than in the laser. The talk from the nationals is that the 5 fleet was made up of a lot of sailors who originally entered as a 7.
Holding the boat down upwind requires a good set up. I have had to get a lot of our less experienced sailors to adjust their set up to be able to get enough kicker and Cunningham range to be able to de power enough.
Having said all that. Itís just so much more fun to sail due planing at lower wind speeds, I would just recommend them for the joy of sailing as much of trying to win on handicap.

Andy

-------------
Andy Mck


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 12:20pm
Thanks for the thread, it certainly got me thinking of all the experience gained over 6 years since the RS Aero's launch.
There are several points of discussion going on here which are related but need separate consideration;

1) PY of the RS Aero 9 - particularly relative to the RS Aero 7
2) Size of the RS Aero 9 sail
3) Size of the RS Aero 9 sail relative to the hull size
4) Size of RS Aero hull for heavy weights
5) RS Aero 9 racing fleet




1)  It is fair to say the RS Aero 9 PY has evolved as a PY most accurate for light wind, as that is where the large portion of the data will come from. Additionally the RS Aero 9's two keen participants in the 2019/20 Sailjuice series were both front of the fleet sailors, which does no favours to their data.
As any boat gets overpowered in stronger breezes it is obvious that smaller sailed boats generally will get an advantage when PY racing. That is true across the board, no surprises there. However the RS Aero 9 is an awesome option in light/medium winds, accelerating very easily on the front of gusts and zephyrs and quick to plane whilst others can't.
However sailor skill is by far the largest determining factor in Class and PY racing and the difference would only be felt between two similar ability sailors. A good front of the fleet sailor will still invariably beat an average mid fleet sailor. 
RS Aero 9s have won the 100 boat Starcross Steamer, 2nd & 3rd at the Exmoor Beastie, 3rd in the Roadford Rocket and often win in 15 boat RS Aero Lymington club races, especially where faster boats may have an advantage over the tide. 

2)
We have had some awesome RS Aero 9 heavy air sailing off Lymington in recent years when Greg Bartlett visits and a few of us go out. The RS Aero 9 is simply a little larger than an RS Aero 7. Much can be done to de-power with controls, daggerboard, technique and the flexi carbon mast. We have learnt to sail it downwind in breeze through treacherous wind vs tide Solent waves, still veering though the waves for the best line whilst avoiding digging the bow. 
In light winds the extra horsepower make it quick to accelerate and nimble. In medium breeze it will be one of the first boats in a mixed fleet to get planning. In the flat water of smaller lakes the larger sail can can hold down larger breezes more easily, providing more participation of it in those locations. 
Both the two RS Aero 9s were amongst the small 20% proportion of boats to complete both races on the Big Saturday of this year's Tiger Trophy when gust over 40kn hit Rutland. 

3)
The suggestion of high helm weight to boat weight ratio not working does not hold. The high proportion of the overall weight being in the sailor makes for a wonderfully exhilarating and involved experience. You are now much less just a passenger with a damped down experience!
Windsurfs work well and are fast and exciting with a larger proportion sailor weight. Speed sailing windsurfers tend to be heavy on very small boards! The RS Aero's hull weight interestingly falls about midway between a windsurf and a Laser which goes some way to explain the RS Aero sailor's benefit to be more versatile in exercising the option of a choice of sail sizes to boost participation, fun and safety.



4)  The design of the vertical chined RS Aero hull is such that there is little change in wetted area between a light sailor and a heavy sailor which is a major speed factor in displacement sailing. 
As per any boat you need to avoid draging the transom in lighter breezes which involves a small move forward by the sailor. As soon as the wind is up the dynamics change again with sailors moving back in the boat both upwind and down and the breeze and the power of the weight of the heavier sailors generating speed that lifts the hull. As an example, Matt Thursfield at 105kg pulled off a 5th out of 200 starters at the very windy Ullswater Lord Birkett race an RS Aero 7 having a lot of fun in the process.

The difference between a lightweight RS Aero sailor and a heavyweight RS Aero sailor (in same rig) in light winds is similar to an RS Aero 7 racing against a Laser in light winds (similar sail size). If the heavier (all up weight) boat can do good transitions (roll tacks, roll gybes, efficient acceleration, good gliding) then he is in with a chance as he maintains his speed. However, when both boats stop then all other things being equal the lighter boat will be the quickest to accelerate again. So, as is usually the case, sailing skill takes precedence.

There are plenty of heavier RS Aero sailors (say 85-105kg) racing near the front of the fleet and at the nationals they held their own in the light breezes as well as the stronger breezes, and that was in RS Aero 7s this year which should have hurt them more than in RS Aero 9s. 

5)
Of the 102 RS Aeros entered for the 2020 Eastbourne Nationals there were initially about 12 RS Aero 9s which reduced to 7 after some necessary cancelations (we had over 130 entry enquiries and about 30 cancellations in total due to various 2020 related issues). With a windy forecast a couple of the RS Aero 9s made it known they were contemplating changing down, party due to less sailing and less sea sailing this year and not feeling race fit. With only about 5 left the remainder made a group decision to swap down and enjoy racing in the large 57 boat RS Aero 7 fleet. 
Had this been a normal year then the Eastbourne Championship, initially billed as a Europeans, would have likely had 200 RS Aeros in total, similar to our Weymouth Worlds in 2018. The RS Aero 9s would have likely retained critical mass at 20+ sailors even at the potentially exposed coastal venue. Sailing an RS Aero 9 through the Eastbourne waves would have been awesome and we have done a whole load of training for that on big wind-against-tide days at Lymington.

The 2020 RS Aero 9 UK National Championships are re-scheduled as part of our Inland Championship at Draycote on 10/11th October. It is after all an extraordinary year and we remain versatile. With a nice trophy and title up for grabs I hope we might achieve a good RS Aero 9 fleet. Charter RS Aeros may be available - although new RS Aeros are under such demand at RS Sailing now they might be quite limited! Our 2019 Inlands had 79 RS Aeros in total, so fingers crossed.

There would appear to be some evidence that the RS Aero 9 sailors are overall across the fleet of a higher average ability than the RS Aero 7s and this really boosted the level in the top third of the RS Aero 7 fleet at Eastbourne producing some great racing. As ever, over a 4 day series with a good variety of conditions and the mix of upwind and down, waves and flat, both heavier and lighter sailors are mixed through the results. 

When conditions are good and appropriate the RS Aero Class will achieve good RS Aero 9 fleets. Our flexible attitude the choice enables a more optimal experience boosting participation, safety and enjoyment.
At our 2016/2017/2018 Nationals we achieved near 20 boat fleets, especially when the forecast was light. 

At the 2018 Worlds at Weymouth we had 42 RS Aero 9s out on the sea at Weymouth Bay and it was fantastic racing. Sailor weights ranged from about 80kg-105kg. The lighter sailors held their own when it was windy often gaining back downwind and similarly the heavier sailors had the opportunity to gain a lead at the first windward mark. The wind increased all week and as we crossed the final finish line to be sent home gusts were reaching 37kn on the Harbour with the fleet still racing hard and without any spar breakage! 

For shorter duration events, like 1 day or weekend, larger turnouts are more likely when it is obvious there will not be too much wind. Similarly at inland non exposed locations with flat water were the power can be controlled more easily without waves.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 12:25pm
Thanks Peter!

-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Do Different

....suggested that the benefit of an "oversize" rig is marginal in terms of speed across the wind range.... 

   

Yes thats true enough, but it only becomes a race disadvantage when mixed fleet PY racing. 
You can still enjoy good Class racing in all breezes, with the extra excitement and physical challenge of the larger rig.
The RS Aero 9 is not so much 'oversize' as Large.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

....To me the Aero looks like a lightweights boat so the big sail can't sufficiently compensate for the extra 40kg of displacement... 

I would be very wary of forming an opinion on 'looks', rather than the evidence of testing.
RS Aero 5 sailors regularly beaten by RS Aero 9 sailors on PY in light winds would disagree with you.
The RS Aero 9 gets going just fine, heavy sailors included, in light winds. Technique and sailor skill takes precedence.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

The Aero hull is too light for it to carry a large person. The weight of the sailor is too big a proportion of the whole package. Overpowering it isnt going to help.

Surely the ability of a hull to carry weight is more a function of the hull design shape and size rather than its weight. Ultimately it is the all up total weight (boat + sailor) that needs to be considered in terms off 'carrying' ability.
'Overpowering' is not an issue until the breeze is up and a heavier sailor is then more able to deal with that. Before then the extra power does help with initiating speed and acceleration.



Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by 423zero

....extra wind resistance from larger sail, negates what would appear to be a obvious step up.

Only an issue once overpowered and that comes later on flat water (like lakes).
With extra power if you cant 'use it' you have to 'lose it' as efficiently as possible to minimise drag. That is part of the racing/sailing challenge. Flat sail, tight controls, daggerboard up a little as a more efficient alternative to flogging the sail or heeling over.

Even after you are overpowered upwind you can still make your gains downwind - fast planning reaches and the agility to S-turn catching waves down the run.

Before you are overpowered it is a joy and for most of our sailing, especially inland, an appropriate weight of sailor will be in that range.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by H2

 
I think this is the answer actually. The aero hull is aimed at a lighter helm and struggles to carry the weight needed to utilise the larger sail.

Evidence and realty would suggest otherwise.
The RS Aero Nationals this year had a good variety of conditions (a little biased to the higher wind).
Whilst there was still a good mix of weights at the front, sailors at the heavier end of the usual ranges did well overall and still performed in the light winds too.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch


From experience, I would say that the advantage of the 9 upwind is small, but the advantage reaching or off-wind significant, so the relative competitiveness is probably down to the nature of the course. I'm about 88kg these days, down from 97kg when I owned a Phantom.


Thats true, it is not just about wind strength but angles too. With a marginal planning reach angle the RS Aero 9s, even with heavier sailors, may gain back their PY seconds.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:30pm
Pete,
what are the perceived weight ranges for the different rigs?


-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by GarethT

From the few I've seen, the 9s look really hard work above a 3

It is quite easy to make any boat look hard work as the wind increases!
Reminds me of the learn to windsurf saying; 'if it is hard work you are probably doing it wrong!'
The challenge is learning to do it efficiently and in controlled way. Usual rules apply.


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Peter Barton


Originally posted by GarethT

From the few I've seen, the 9s look really hard work above a 3

It is quite easy to make any boat look hard work as the wind increases!
Reminds me of the learn to windsurf saying; 'if it is hard work you are probably doing it wrong!'
The challenge is learning to do it efficiently and in controlled way. Usual rules apply.


I don't doubt that. Just my observation from club racing.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

From a design perspective in displacement mode one might design a boat to float to its lines at the design displacement with the transom just kissing the water ... though something so conventional might not have limited Jo Richards ... so with such a light boat it is probably fair to say that a heavy person is going to sink the transom or will have to sit further forward, and so the boat wonít be sailing at its optimum.


Same for any dinghy; Get your weight forward in light winds.
For any sailor at the heavy end for their class this increasingly more important.
A boat in overly bow down trim will suffer much less than any boat in an overly stern down trim in light breezes.
As soon as you have hull speed it is less of an issue.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by patj

I've seen the 8.1 popular at ditch locations where the wind comes over banks and reeds and height is really useful. These locations would possibly suit the Aero 9 too.

True!
We have an annual River Championship and the RS Aero (RS Aero 9 in particular) proves fast and agile in confined waters with fickle quickly varying breezes.
We had 18 RS Aero 9s on the 65m wide start line at Avon SC!

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3286" rel="nofollow - Avon SC, Severn 2016
https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3382" rel="nofollow - Notingham SC, Trent 2017
https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3363" rel="nofollow - Bradford on Avon SC, Wilts, 2017
https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3504" rel="nofollow - Upper Thames SC 2018
https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3633" rel="nofollow - Avon SC, Severn 2019






Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

... The '9' is great in very light conditions ... but many will be as quick or quicker with the more practical '7' in any 'proper' breeze...  and things will be very much more in the boats (and most helms) comfort zone.   Just an 'external' view of course !!

There is of course a lot of range, perhaps most of our sailing, in between 'very light' and 'proper' as well, and more so still on flat inland waters.
There are also sailors who seek the more exciting and athletic challenge and would shun being restricted by a 'comfort zone', as well as those who don't.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 2:07pm
Nobody at work today?

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by andymck

.... The talk from the nationals is that the 5 fleet was made up of a lot of sailors who originally entered as a 7...

Andy

To clarify, it was just 3 of the 47 RS Aero 5s, not 'a lot'. Non of those late changers featured highly in the overall results.
The flexibility is there to boost participation (travelling, starting and finishing races), enjoyment and safety and has been there since our early Championships. Going forwards the Class will give thought to restricting late rig changes to just those struggling at the back of the fleet, to control any title hunter banditry. 

Of course this was more of an issue in the RS Aero 7 fleet with 7 good RS Aero 9 sailors joining. However with two larger near equal 47 & 57 boat fleets the Race Officer was delighted and the racing was extra competitive in the RS Aero 7s. With a mix of conditions over 4 days it all evened out pretty well.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by Peter Barton

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

....To me the Aero looks like a lightweights boat so the big sail can't sufficiently compensate for the extra 40kg of displacement... 

I would be very wary of forming an opinion on 'looks', rather than the evidence of testing.
RS Aero 5 sailors regularly beaten by RS Aero 9 sailors on PY in light winds would disagree with you.
The RS Aero 9 gets going just fine, heavy sailors included, in light winds. Technique and sailor skill takes precedence.

Forgive me for imprecise language, my use of the word 'looks' in this case is shorthand for 'my impression, derived from reading about the Aero, it's specifications and looking at them on the foreshore and on the water'. No argument that technique and skill are far more important and, as you say, when class racing the playing field is level.

Don't take my observations as being critical of the Aero either, had my budget being larger three years ago, when I was looking for a singlehander, I think I would probably have bought one.

As a long time (and moderately successful) Raceboard sailor I get the lightweight hull and multiple sail sizes concept but agree with Cirrus that bigger is not automatically better (had my regional series adopted the IYRU 9.5m sail rather than continuing to race 7.5m I would have retired completely rather than just from the occasional National that I did prior to the change).


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Peter Barton

 
Surely the ability of a hull to carry weight is more a function of the hull design shape and size rather than its weight. Ultimately it is the all up total weight (boat + sailor) that needs to be considered in terms off 'carrying' ability.
'Overpowering' is not an issue until the breeze is up and a heavier sailor is then more able to deal with that. Before then the extra power does help with initiating speed and acceleration.


So, your boat weights say 50 kilos. we have a hobbit helm who also weighs 50 kilos. We also have a helm who weighs 75 kilos. He is sailing at a 25% weight disadvantage.

Let's take a boat that weighs 75 kilos. and the same two helms. The heavier helm now has a 17.75% disadvantage by my (very quick, please forgive me if i'm wrong) maths.

Thats one reason why the lighter a boat is the harder it is to make it carry weight. Your variable (crew) weight is a larger portion of the whole package and it can be reduced easily and legally by changing the sailor. I think its more of a problem for two person boats, but it must also apply here.




Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 4:19pm
I think the hull shape is what makes a boat a good or otherwise weight carrier, a 61kg Phantom is a better weight carrier than a 60kg Laser, they weigh the same but nobody is going to suggest that the Phantom is a great boat for lightweights or the Laser is ideal for big lads. Even if you put a 6m rig on a Phant or a 9m rig on a Laser they still wouldn't be.




-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I think the hull shape is what makes a boat a good or otherwise weight carrier, a 61kg Phantom is a better weight carrier than a 60kg Laser, they weigh the same but nobody is going to suggest that the Phantom is a great boat for lightweights or the Laser is ideal for big lads. Even if you put a 6m rig on a Phant or a 9m rig on a Laser they still wouldn't be.



I disagree on the 6m phantom rig. The hull is a perfect planing machine and with less weight onboard and a smaller (Arguably more efficient) rig it should fly offwind. The reduced sail area *and* the option for a soft carbon rig upwind would transform it for lightweights once powered up. It'll still be sticky when its light, but with less cargo load...........

The 9m Laser won't work because its less efficient. Look at a radial vs a standard when both are powered up - the Radial is as quick round the course.

Thats not to say btw that the hull shape is irrelevant, it clearly isnt. But the rig and weight of the package have a larger influence than many think. Merlins gave up on weight carrying hulls 20 odd years ago as they just weren't fast enough downwind. The heavies were better off sailing what was thought to be the lightweights hull and hopefully being faster upwind and three sail reaching in breeze.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 08 Sep 20 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

...I suspect that the RS Aero 9s strength is its ability to perform better in light winds, rather than to carry more weight.

As an observer the RS Aero 9 can appears to be suboptimal upwind in a blow where the windage and light weight seem to work against it.

RS Aeros seem to fly off wind regardless of rig size, I guess that the key is being able to get to the windward mark in one piece for the fun downwind!

Agreed about light winds.

Upwind in a blow when overpowered the large sail needs to be flat to minimise windage efficiently. Beyond a certain point there is windage, as per any boat when overpowered.

However I would not cite the light weight hull as a detriment to upwind in a blow. The light low drag hull is easily driven and provided you keep the forces under control and pointing in the right direction the light hull will squirt forwards easily. As wind and waves build on an upwind I slide back about 30cm and the light bow then lifts and steers very easily over each wave.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 4:32pm
The Aero sailors at my local club change from 9 down to 7 very quickly (F3 and up). By contrast the D-Zero sailors just keep going on the 1 rig in all conditions and seem to perform much better for a large range of helm weights.

Back in the dim and distant past a well known Laser masters sailor told me the 7 was the rig to have if you wanted an Aero, the 9 was just too much (in his opinion). Then there is the issue of heavier sailors changing down as the ind builds potentially spoiling a lighter sailors event.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 4:52pm
Or you could have the issue of the lighter sailors changing up as the wind drops, potentially spoiling a heavier sailors event.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 5:09pm
In a given series of races most clubs and organisers will expect the sailor to stick with one rig. A my home club if you change rigs you will have a different entry just as you would if you changed boats to a different class (which, actually, is what you are doing when you change rigs). I can't see any way of preventing somebody choosing the rig to suit the conditions on a one or two day event though but if they chop and change that should make it difficult for them to win the overall series.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 6:04pm
Or you could have a single PY that reflects that an Aero which could be rigged with any of the three rigs, this could be faster, since the sailor would always be selecting the optimal rig

-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 8:56pm
Like Raceboards, but it does increase the cost of entry to the class and remove some of the simplicity.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 9:37pm
At our club all boats get to choose their rig, but their handicap is always based upon the fastest PY, I think that keeps people sailing longer and also stops bandits swapping up at the lower extreme

-------------
RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Wiclif

Or you could have the issue of the lighter sailors changing up as the wind drops, potentially spoiling a heavier sailors event.

was this not an inevitability?  What might happen in sea breezes and class events doesn't translate to the puddles in a F1-2 on a midweek evening.

Lighter helms that can plane offwind are always going to have an advantage around the cans... if the planing threshold drops by even a couple of knots of wind speed by a increase in sail area, it's going to make a significant difference offwind... why else run kites on other boats?

I dropped nearly 30kg when I last owned a Laser and my results improved significantly.... I definitely wasn't any better a sailor, nor arguably any 'fitter' (in fact, I got pneumonia and could barely lift 25kg bags without a struggle for the first time since I was 16), but I could at least hold station off wind again.

As for the Aero - it still looks like a boat for lightweights to me, the multiple rigs (or certainly between the 7 & 9) do not 'add value' imho.  No harm in this, gthe Aero's a cracking success and nice to see it building fleets around the UK.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 11:13am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Or you could have a single PY that reflects that an Aero which could be rigged with any of the three rigs, this could be faster, since the sailor would always be selecting the optimal rig

But then you would need to own all 3 rigs, a significant extra cost.....


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 11:27am
Originally posted by turnturtle


As for the Aero - it still looks like a boat for lightweights to me, the multiple rigs (or certainly between the 7 & 9) do not 'add value' imho.  No harm in this, gthe Aero's a cracking success and nice to see it building fleets around the UK.

I have to say I've been quite surprised how competitive the Aero has been from light teenage girls on a 5 to heavy 50+ year olds like myself on a 9. On handicap, many times the girls win and many times the heavy weights win, across a range of conditions. It has been a much greater leveller than I was expecting and at just under 90kg I don't feel held back. I can imagine that above 90 the weight factor kicks in quickly, rather than tapers, simply due to the short length. 

To be honest the bigger problem is my 6'6" frame as the cockpits are small and I miss the space of a Phantom.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 11:49am
Yep - I can appreciate that, there was noticeable uplift in performance at just under 90kg in a Laser! 

 I would imagine the Aero is similar in this regard..... 


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 1:01pm
The shapes are very different, and a chined Hull has a lower increase in surface area drag for the increase in displacement. Jo had this in mind with the hull design. The angles are not there for their aesthetics.
The difference given an appropriate rig should therefore be smaller.
There will be a difference in acceleration for sure. But that is the same in any boat.
If the light weight can remain in any way competitive upwind, they will be earlier to plane off wind, as long as the reaches are not set too tight, and will usually make up more than they loose.

But this Brings us back to the fundamental question. Is the aero an all round boat for a 90kg Sailor?. Are you going to be competitive against a lighter sailor in night to moderate winds, unlikely. Are you going to sail a rewarding boat that really flies in a breeze and will get up on the plane earlier than you would in most other single handlers, yes.
If you sail for fun and donít have the time, fitness, solvency and water to sail a Musto skiff or a moth. Itís a great boat. If you want to win every race on handicap, well, there are a couple of boats that may be good, but if you donít like Finns and Phantoms you need to loose 7-10 kilos.
My favourite boat still is a N12. But always having been over 75kg and often over 80. I was never going to be super competitive. But that was not why I sailed them.

Andy


-------------
Andy Mck


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 1:39pm
well 40 odd years of tank testing and progressive development is clearly for something.... best of luck to the Aero, who knows, I might even buy one oneday.


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 2:44pm
"Hull has a lower increase in surface area drag for the increase in displacement"

Can someone explain this statement? I thought that as a sphere as the maximum volume for minimum surface area that a rounded hull like the laser would gain surface area at a lower rate than a chined hull.

-------------
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 3:35pm
The multi-sail concept is absolutely fine imo.  'More people sailing across more of the wind range for very much more of the time' is the simple argument.  So the forecast says its going to blow dogs off chains ...  and quite a few of the lighter or more 'mature' types as well might give that class open or even local club series day a miss.  Give them a viable option of being able to sail with a more modest sail size and they still come along.  The forecast might even be wrong and have over-estimated the wind likely.. if they turn up they can still sail with the 'standard' sail or with that smaller one..  Stay at home, given that forecast, and they get to sail nothing.  That is poor for them, poor for the club involved and poor for the class they have chosen.  The converse is also true with heavies not seeing the point of  turning up in the face of a light breeze forecast.

The 'purist' my not approve - but then they so rarely do ...  Some of them in their 'traditional' class however think nothing of having a 'special cut' sail for lighter or heavier conditions.  Others in their strict ( only one sail) SMOD don't seem to mind if their class is increasingly populated just by people of very similar statures and weights ...and ages.  Loosen up a bit guys is my message - there is more than one way to do things.  (Thank goodness !)


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Peter Barton

 
Surely the ability of a hull to carry weight is more a function of the hull design shape and size rather than its weight. Ultimately it is the all up total weight (boat + sailor) that needs to be considered in terms off 'carrying' ability.
'Overpowering' is not an issue until the breeze is up and a heavier sailor is then more able to deal with that. Before then the extra power does help with initiating speed and acceleration.


So, your boat weights say 50 kilos. we have a hobbit helm who also weighs 50 kilos. We also have a helm who weighs 75 kilos. He is sailing at a 25% weight disadvantage.

Let's take a boat that weighs 75 kilos. and the same two helms. The heavier helm now has a 17.75% disadvantage by my (very quick, please forgive me if i'm wrong) maths.

Thats one reason why the lighter a boat is the harder it is to make it carry weight. Your variable (crew) weight is a larger portion of the whole package and it can be reduced easily and legally by changing the sailor. I think its more of a problem for two person boats, but it must also apply here.


Understood. I was considering the ability of the design shape to carry extra weight and you are considering the increased proportional difference's effect on equality.

You are suggesting the extra weight is a disadvantage though, I would suggest that a good proportion of the time it is not. 
In the middle ground there is a whole load of interesting racing with the heavier sailor trying to gain more upwind than he might lose downwind......What are the downwind angles? Is it marginal planing or blast reaching? Will the lighter sailor be able to make a comeback downwind through traffic? Wind with tide or against? Waves or not?
Those weight differences playing out into an overall result, especially over a long series, are really restricted to similar good ability sailors in boat speed prioritised conditions. Otherwise many other race variables and skills will be the deciding factor.

Personally, having experienced it, I will always take the 50kg all up weight boat over the 75kg one, thanks. I have never felt the urge to suggest that all RS Aero sailors add 25kg to their boats so that they can reduce that proportional difference and have more momentum to push though waves rather than popping agilely over and around them.

If a boat could could be made at 0kg all up weight I would be at the front of that queue. It would be like a non foiling foiler - weightless! I could tie it down to a ballasted trolley when ashore and be sure to hook myself to the end of the mainsheet when afloat to avoid ever losing it.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Neptune

At our club all boats get to choose their rig, but their handicap is always based upon the fastest PY, I think that keeps people sailing longer and also stops bandits swapping up at the lower extreme

Yes, we have similar locally. The flexible rig rule was there for the Lasers before the RS Aeros arrived. Except we only allow changing down as changing up would then effect previous results if you adjust all those handicaps to the faster one.
However, in reality, with the exception of the series leaders, those with a choice option sail each race for the enjoyment of that race alone,  rather than a with focus on the whole series. So they just have a new series with a new rig. 
The flexibility helps participation (travelling, starting and finishing races), safety (not over canvassed) and enjoyment (of appropriate sized rig).


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

....the multiple rigs (or certainly between the 7 & 9) do not 'add value' imho.  No harm in this, the Aero's a cracking success and nice to see it building fleets around the UK.

I would have to disagree sorry, based on my enjoyment of sailing both the RS Aero 7 and RS Aero 9 similar amounts over the last 6 years.
It adds a lot of interest, keeps me in the right power range when I choose to be and sometimes I don't chose to be. The rigs are so similar and everything else remains unchanged, so the simplicity of the RS Aero does not suffer and it all fits nicely in the bags under the cover for storage and transport. With alternating two rigs the sails then last much longer too, especially the RS Aero 9 if (unlike me) you mainly use it in lighter winds. You just have options and most keen RS Aero owners choose to exercise that flexibility with a 2nd rig to achieve more good sailing days at each end of the spectrum.

I understand RS are offering a 25% discount off a 2nd rig with new RS Aeros at the Southampton boat show starting tomorrow....



Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 8:11pm
Does that mean you get a 5 instead of a 7?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by Paramedic


Does that mean you get a 5 instead of a 7?


A 5.25 rig, I think!

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Paramedic


Does that mean you get a 5 instead of a 7?


A 5.25 rig, I think!

inc VAT LOL


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 11 Sep 20 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Peter Barton


Originally posted by turnturtle

....the multiple rigs (or certainly between the 7 & 9) do not 'add value' imho.† No harm in this, the Aero's a cracking success and nice to see it building fleets around the UK.

I would have to disagree sorry, based on my enjoyment of sailing both the RS Aero 7 and RS Aero 9 similar amounts over the last 6 years.
It adds a lot of interest, keeps me in the right power range when I choose to be and sometimes I don't chose to be. The rigs are so similar and everything else remains unchanged, so the simplicity of the RS Aero does not suffer and it all fits nicely in the bags under the cover for storage and transport. With alternating two rigs the sails then last much longer too, especially the RS Aero 9 if (unlike me) you mainly use it in lighter winds. You just have options and most keen RS Aero owners choose to exercise that flexibility with a 2nd rig to achieve more good sailing days at each end of the spectrum.
I understand RS are offering a 25% discount off a 2nd rig with new RS Aeros at the Southampton boat show starting tomorrow....


Fair enough ... and I hope they got their money back on the stand


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 11 Sep 20 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by Riv

"Hull has a lower increase in surface area drag for the increase in displacement"

Can someone explain this statement? I thought that as a sphere as the maximum volume for minimum surface area that a rounded hull like the laser would gain surface area at a lower rate than a chined hull.

You are right, a sphere has the minimum surface area relative to volume. 
However we are considering the change in surface area between a 35kg and a 105kg person. The low chine and vertical sides mean that a 35kg sailor is already at max waterline beam and adding weight then gives a lower increase of wetted surface.
At the recent Eastbourne Nationals with over 100 sailors weights ranged from about 44kg-105kg. We have had 35kg sailors enjoying the RS Aero 5 up to about 15kn.
 
From the original https://www.rssailing.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/RSAero_Datasheet_A5-1.pdf" rel="nofollow - RS Aero datasheet ;
'The early prototypes had a higher chine, however through development, the chine has dropped to just below the water line amidships. This has proved to have several advantages: 
ē A 35kg sailor gains the benefit of approximately the same waterline beam and hence the same hull form stability as a heavier sailor 
ē The waterline beam and wetted surface does not change significantly with an increase in helm weight'


Posted By: andrewwilde
Date Posted: 12 Sep 20 at 1:08am

Interesting thread.

Personal perspective, owning a 9 (most of my racing in that) and having used borrowed 7 rigs a fair bit, and being on the heavier end of the spectrum:

I can be competitive in the 9 rig (speed-wise, my tactics and boat handling arenít up to being consistent) in winds up to mid-twenties (kts). Itís clearly possible to perform well in winds above that (Matt, Greg, etc) but it requires a level of skill (and practice) I donít have. In a chop, the taller mast of the 9 doesnít seem to do many favours, as the boat moves around more and the top part of the sail doesnít seem to help as much as it does on smoother waters. Iím sure, again, that with practice and fitness you can work it through but itís a rig that is hard to make it work in the stronger stuff. Given a choice Iíd move down to a 7 at around 18kts sustained or gusts of over 22kts, but the 9 is probably better for my technique & improving my skills. The 7 feels bogged down under 12-14kts given my current 102kg (a bit too much lock-down snacking...).

In the lighter stuff & on inland puddles I can be quite quick, but itís really critical where you put your weight fore-aft; as my weight has changed Iíve seen the difference get a lot more dramatic around 94-95kg Ė if youíre heavier than this itís hard getting the boat going in light airs (<5kts) and it slows up quicker than those around you (Iím thinking itís much harder to keep the tail from digging). Once youíre over 100kg, this becomes pronounced. That said, as soon as youíre out of the drifting conditions and sailing in 4-8kts the boat picks up again and you can make it work providing you keep forwards.



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Sep 20 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by H2

is there a future for the 9?

If you look at the races recorded on the PY table its one of the most popular classes in the country, so I'd say the answer is definite yes. Similarly with such a large body of data the yardstick calculation is going to be a decent reflection of the active fleet as sailed in the clubs.


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 12 Sep 20 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by H2

is there a future for the 9?

Well, equally, is there a future for the H2?


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 13 Sep 20 at 7:27am
Originally posted by Oinks

Originally posted by H2

is there a future for the 9?

Well, equally, is there a future for the H2?

There very different animals aren't they?

The Aero obviously has a future, and the 9 will attract an audience based upon the theory that if you're large extra sail area is what you want - I've made my thoughts on that clear.

The H2 doesn't have RS marketing behind it and while it was aimed at a specific audience and to get around specific problems that singlehanders suffer from its far from an easy boat to sail. So yes, it has a future but it in my view it'll be another RS300 with a niche following. 


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 13 Sep 20 at 8:01am
Nice bit of trolling by the OP, followed by a strong defence from the RS machine!  Neither the Aero 9 nor H2 is my cuppa but good luck to you both.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 13 Sep 20 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

 
The Aero obviously has a future, and the 9 will attract an audience based upon the theory that if you're large extra sail area is what you want - I've made my thoughts on that clear.

Thanks but I think there is a lot more to it than that.

The RS Aero 9 is a more exciting and energetic sailing experience by virtue of its extra sail area. Some like energetic, some don't. Some like energetic some of the time, like the controlled situation of an easy sheltered venue or shorter sailing time, maybe a club race or a quick training sail.

There are plenty of RS Aero 9 sailors who are not large, most often found on smaller lakes or when it is not overly windy. We could actually do with more large sailors and there is plenty of opportunity to be had by them.

I am not large and I really enjoy my RS Aero 9. Over 6 seasons I have competed in equal numbers of nationals - three in the RS Aero 9 and three in the RS Aero 7. Actually this year will now be four in the RS Aero 9 with the re-schedule. An important factor in our dinghy sailing is variety as it keeps our interest. Sometimes I choose the RS Aero 7 for a big fleet experience and sometimes I choose the extra excitement and challenge of the RS Aero 9.

I am now really excited with the new focus of the https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=event&eid=1825" rel="nofollow - RS Aero 9 UK National Championships at Draycote on 10/11th Oct in 4 weeks and the 9 rig will remain the rig of choice on my RS Aero for the next few weeks at least.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 15 Sep 20 at 4:05pm
This weekend has seen an interesting test of the relative PY of the RS Aero 9 relative to the RS Aero 7. There were 6 events held in 5 countries with them racing against each other on their local time correction factor 'PYs'.

Check out the results here; https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results" rel="nofollow - RS Aero Reports and Results

In summary;

UK; 
Using 'RYA PY'; RS Aero 7 : RS Aero 9 = 1065 : 1014 = 105.0%
At Burton SC three RS Aero 9s got 2nd, 4th, 5th out of 13 mixed 7s and 9s.                    

USA; 
Using 'US Portsmouth'; RS Aero 7 : RS Aero 9 = 91.3 : 87.3 = 104.6%
At Massapoag the fleet of 13 had 11 RS Aero 9s with the RS Aero 7s taking 2nd and 4th.

Czech Republic;
I think the were using similar PY numbers to the UK.
At Lipno the fleet of 13 CZE and GER sailors had six RS Aero 9s and seven RS Aero 7s and the RS Aero 9s finisher 1,2,4,5,8,9 so fairly equal but marginal benefit to the 9s.

Sweden;
Using Time Correction Factor; RS Aero 5 : RS Aero 7 : RS Aero 9 = 0,786 : 0,838 : 0,880 = 105.0% between the 7s and 9s.
At Alingas on Saturday the sole RS Aero 9 (bias in the entry list towards RS Aero 5s) was 8th out of 10, but splitting the three RS Aero 7s (but with respect, he is a Great Grand Master at 75yrs+ !)
 
Switzerland; 
Using Swiss numbers; RS Aero 7 : RS Aero 9 = 113 : 109 = 103.7%
At Hallwil, probably in light breezes, in a mixed fleet including 505s out of the 6 RS Aeros the 3 RS Aero 9s took 1st, 3rd & 4th against the 3 RS Aero 7s.

So overall over the weekend just gone the RS Aero 9s were certainly holding their own on balance against the RS Aero 7s and there is RS Aero 9 activity with calendared events across several counties, in addition to local racing & sailing. 
As ever, lots of factors and variables apply!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Sep 20 at 5:24pm
Looking at those figures it seems the Aero 9, contrary to the OP's supposition is actually a bit of a bandit LOL

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 7:52am
Originally posted by Oinks

Originally posted by H2

is there a future for the 9?

Well, equally, is there a future for the H2?

Good question - and yes I think there is. Second hand boats are holding their value well at around £8,500 to £9,000 and they seem to sell within a few days of being listed. One of the most well known sailors in the UK just commissioned a boat which will help raise the classes profile.

It is certainly a niche boat and I very much doubt will be a mass market proposition in the way that clearly the Aero has done amazingly well. I actually asked the question out of genuine interest as I was considering a second boat and the Aero was on the list rather than as a troll!!


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 7:56am
Originally posted by A2Z

Nice bit of trolling by the OP, followed by a strong defence from the RS machine!  Neither the Aero 9 nor H2 is my cuppa but good luck to you both.

I was not trolling - I was considering a second boat but as I am 92kg I would really need the 9 rig but my observations were that it did not seem to go well against the 7 rig and I wanted to avoid a situation where I got an Aero knowing that I needed to sail the 9 and finding out that the class was gravitating around the 5 and 7 rigs. It was a genuine question and I have enjoyed the responses, especially from Peter!


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by A2Z

Nice bit of trolling by the OP, followed by a strong defence from the RS machine!  Neither the Aero 9 nor H2 is my cuppa but good luck to you both.

I was not trolling - I was considering a second boat but as I am 92kg I would really need the 9 rig but my observations were that it did not seem to go well against the 7 rig and I wanted to avoid a situation where I got an Aero knowing that I needed to sail the 9 and finding out that the class was gravitating around the 5 and 7 rigs. It was a genuine question and I have enjoyed the responses, especially from Peter!

He does have a vested interest in the Aero being their class manager and getting some kind of renumeration from RS for doing so.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 4:36pm
..... "He does have a vested interest in the Aero being their class manager and getting some kind of renumeration from RS for doing so.. "

And even if true what is your point -  Is the implication here that someone needs to be paid to say here what they might well support anyway ?  (There are far easier ways to earn a crust than lobbying in this paticular market segment !)  .  Many non paid contributors might well have their own undeclared interests that they quietly promote as well.  Sometimes it may involve subtle direct promotion .. and other times less subtle indirect 'promotion' of their own preferred classes. What was that ...  you never knew ?  Wink


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 4:40pm
Of course Pete has a vested interest but I would argue that every penny RS  have paid him over the years , has been returned many time over  . His patience, advice and good humour , both on line and at the 100s of test/training events have gone a long way in making the aero as successful as it has become . 
Looking back itís hard to fault RS launch and promotion of the aero. 
Itís a shame no other dinghy maker/ importer has the money and the foresight to launch in this way.
And I donít say this as a RS aero fan boy, TBH I think the Dzero is a much better boat and itís where my money will be heading once things get back to something like normal .Smile


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by zeon

once things get back to something like normal .Smile

LOLLOL - hmm, we can but hope....

Anyway, I've always found Pete's contribution honest.

Better a paid hand that's accountable to both employer and customer, than a bunch of fanboys who just want to ensure that there's some f**king residuals in whatever laser-replacer they've ponied up for..... Wink


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by A2Z

Nice bit of trolling by the OP, followed by a strong defence from the RS machine!  Neither the Aero 9 nor H2 is my cuppa but good luck to you both.

I was not trolling - I was considering a second boat but as I am 92kg I would really need the 9 rig but my observations were that it did not seem to go well against the 7 rig and I wanted to avoid a situation where I got an Aero knowing that I needed to sail the 9 and finding out that the class was gravitating around the 5 and 7 rigs. It was a genuine question and I have enjoyed the responses, especially from Peter!

Why would you want an Aero as a second boat to a H2? Bigger fleet racing? (Not taking the P btw LOL)


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 7:56pm
You always have to admire the passion of fanboys . The problem is that passion can easily turn to anger if someone might just mention their lovely new toy is not perfect in every way lol 

PS  TT , how is Russ these days ? Lol lol LOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 9:06pm
I would have lived to be able to afford the Blaze for the costal club and an Aero for the inland club, maybe the H2 likes room to stretch it's legs too?

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 9:20pm
That Blaze is such a ponderous tub when the wind drops in sloppy waves, I got my arse royally handed to me the other night by an Aero 7 ffs, having worked my butt off to nail him down a wavey reach (which he wasn't exactly 'working' to his advantage, we both headed upwind, the wind dropped he took me to weather pointing higher sailing faster, that Blaze can't point for toffee either. I remember why now, it's got a pathetic centreboard for its size, now I fully recall why I flogged it last time. It could be such a great boat if it were twenty kilos lighter and had proper foils.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 16 Sep 20 at 10:42pm
... oh bless him !!  LOL


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 17 Sep 20 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by A2Z

Nice bit of trolling by the OP, followed by a strong defence from the RS machine!  Neither the Aero 9 nor H2 is my cuppa but good luck to you both.

I was not trolling - I was considering a second boat but as I am 92kg I would really need the 9 rig but my observations were that it did not seem to go well against the 7 rig and I wanted to avoid a situation where I got an Aero knowing that I needed to sail the 9 and finding out that the class was gravitating around the 5 and 7 rigs. It was a genuine question and I have enjoyed the responses, especially from Peter!

Why would you want an Aero as a second boat to a H2? Bigger fleet racing? (Not taking the P btw LOL)

Sam hit the nail on the head - I am moving clubs with my H2 to be on a bigger piece of water but that is further away so I was considering a second boat for use nearer to home on the little pond. As such I do not mind it being a bit of a "compromise" because it is not my main boat but rather something I can go and sail for an hour just 20 mins from home on a sunny evening. Its an Aero or a solo - yes I know they are different, but in my head both are too small for me but they are ok on a small / shifty pond with a fleet to sail in.


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Sep 20 at 8:04am
Originally posted by zeon

You always have to admire the passion of fanboys . The problem is that passion can easily turn to anger if someone might just mention their lovely new toy is not perfect in every way lol 

PS  TT , how is Russ these days ? Lol lol LOL

he's very well - slim n' trim, rides a lot, still has a wife for too good for him.


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 17 Sep 20 at 9:34am
Originally posted by zeon

TBH I think the Dzero is a much better boat and itís where my money will be heading once things get back to something like normal .Smile


Well you heard it here first.... I will be most interested to see how that one pads out.


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 17 Sep 20 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by The Moo

Originally posted by zeon

TBH I think the Dzero is a much better boat and itís where my money will be heading once things get back to something like normal .Smile


Well you heard it here first.... I will be most interested to see how that one pads out.



Well not quite the first lol. You know how things roll in my household lol.


Itís just I have to stop sailing slow boats or I will stop racing altogether and the current club Covid rules  donít help either. And I totally know no other boat will flatter my sailing in the way the British moth does.
The bottom line is , I would rather sail faster boats badly than sail slow boats badly especially as we sail mostly pursuit races . 



Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 17 Sep 20 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Looking at those figures it seems the Aero 9, contrary to the OP's supposition is actually a bit of a bandit LOL

That would be nice, but not really. 
They show a marginal gain for the RS Aero 9 over the RS Aero 7 last weekend. In reality the winds were light to medium at those 5 locations from east coast USA to the Swiss alpine foothills and Scandinavian lakes.
Importantly to this topic, they do show RS Aero 9 participation at all those calendared events across 5 countries.
https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results" rel="nofollow - Results 12/13 Sept


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 17 Sep 20 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by A2Z

Nice bit of trolling by the OP, followed by a strong defence from the RS machine!  Neither the Aero 9 nor H2 is my cuppa but good luck to you both.

I was not trolling - I was considering a second boat but as I am 92kg I would really need the 9 rig but my observations were that it did not seem to go well against the 7 rig and I wanted to avoid a situation where I got an Aero knowing that I needed to sail the 9 and finding out that the class was gravitating around the 5 and 7 rigs. It was a genuine question and I have enjoyed the responses, especially from Peter!

Nice to hear of your interest!

 At lakes, especially smaller lakes like yours, the RS Aero 9 is that much more of a popular option. The flat water makes it easier (rewarding for effort as the breeze increases) and you will be accelerating nicely when the puffs and zephyrs hit (even at 92kg, you are still lighter all up than heavier boats).
At Bowmoor nearby there is a really keen following for the RS Aero 9 and they are all very good!
There are plenty of RS Aero sailors holding their own at around 90kg+, we have front of the fleet sailors over 100kg.
As you are interested, RS currently have a https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=news&nid=10846" rel="nofollow - BOATS2020 deal until Sunday. 40% off most accessories and 20% of additional rigs with new boats.

 'Gravitating' is an apt word. With the RS Aero 7 being the largest fleet there is inevitably occasion where some sailors opt for the largest fleet for the biggest race. Conversely, some like to avoid that too. For home club PY racing and mixed fleet PY events that is not such an issue.

 We opened entry on Friday to the re-scheduled https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=event&eid=1825" rel="nofollow - RS Aero 9 UK National Championships 2020 at Draycote on 10/11th Oct,  part of the RS Aero UK Inland Champs . By the end of the weekend there were 60+ entries and 15 RS Aero 9s are signed up, which is great.
There could be socially distanced big boys beers for RS Aero 9s in Dunchurch that Sat night, bought by anyone who welches down from the RS Aero 9 entry list to the RS Aero 7 at the last minute!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Sep 20 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Peter Barton

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Looking at those figures it seems the Aero 9, contrary to the OP's supposition is actually a bit of a bandit LOL

That would be nice, but not really.

I'm sure you realised my comment was not meant to be taken entirely seriously Thumbs Up


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ShipTease
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 11:36am
Originally posted by iGRF

That Blaze is such a ponderous tub when the wind drops in sloppy waves, I got my arse royally handed to me the other night by an Aero 7 ffs, having worked my butt off to nail him down a wavey reach (which he wasn't exactly 'working' to his advantage, we both headed upwind, the wind dropped he took me to weather pointing higher sailing faster, that Blaze can't point for toffee either. I remember why now, it's got a pathetic centreboard for its size, now I fully recall why I flogged it last time. It could be such a great boat if it were twenty kilos lighter and had proper foils.

The Aero does have a damn good handicap considering how light it is. The Blaze is difficult to sail to its full potential unless its flat water and 12 knots but in the right hands does stand a good chance. Perphaps you dont have the right hands or rig set up in your Blaze? They seem to go pretty well at our club against the Aero's. All up, 75Kg for a 4.2meter boat with racks seems pretty reasonable to me... 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by ShipTease

All up, 75Kg for a 4.2meter boat with racks seems pretty reasonable to me... 

Not sure where you've got that figure from but it's incorrect, Blaze hull with fittings, racks and centreboard is 72kg, all up with rig, sail rudder etc is probably around 90kg.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 3:09pm
The Blaze minimum weight includes everything except the rig - ie as it would arrive at a championship event before being put together (when this may be checked !!) . So hull, wings, centreboard in hull, ropes and corrector weights etc etc - all that is excluded is mast, boom, sail and rudder..  Mid to- High 70's kg wise  with a fully carbon rig and a bit higher with an M7 alloy one.  Any boat built in epoxy  (last 13-14+ years) is most likely be under the minimum weight limit without its added correctors.   Better polyester boats also get close to the class minimum weight.

Interestingly without the wing system and before fittings etc are added new hulls are generally around 51-53kg without the builder having to worry too much about long term durability issues. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by ShipTease


All up, 75Kg for a 4.2meter boat with racks seems pretty reasonable to me...†


And there lyeth the problem all the time dinghy folk think like that, manufacturers will get away with substandard products, or if there are dozy class associations involved making them have to fill the bottom of their crafts with resin just to bring them UP to weight.

I once had lunch at the Southampton boat show, around the time of the RS100 launch (having just bought one) I remember telling my lunch companion if someone launched an easy to sail single hander, sub 50 kilos all up, they'd kill it.
I'll leave you to guess who that 'companion' was, but eventually he did and they did.

Pity no-one else is listening.

Single handed boats should not weigh more than their owners.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by iGRF

 ...Single handed boats should not weigh more than their owners.

Sail what you can carry; 
Windsurf, Moth, RS Aero, Cherub, 18' Skiff...


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

The Blaze minimum weight includes everything except the rig - ie as it would arrive at a championship event before being put together (when this may be checked !!) . So hull, wings, centreboard in hull, ropes and corrector weights etc etc - all that is excluded is mast, boom, sail and rudder..  Mid to- High 70's kg wise  with a fully carbon rig and a bit higher with an M7 alloy one.  Any boat built in epoxy  (last 13-14+ years) is most likely be under the minimum weight limit without its added correctors.   Better polyester boats also get close to the class minimum weight.

Interestingly without the wing system and before fittings etc are added new hulls are generally around 51-53kg without the builder having to worry too much about long term durability issues. 

Do you mean mid to high 80's Mike? My Blaze carbon mast, boom*, sail and rudder weighs around 16.5kg so that would give an all up of 88.5kg (if my boat was minimum weight). The carbon mast is exactly 2.5kg lighter than the M7 so 91kg with the tin mast.

Not complaining mind you, my Spice adds up to 155kg ready to sail (for context an RS400, with a quoted min hull weight of 88kg has an all up sailing weight, from the RS website, of 129kg)

*I'm guessing the boom weight at 2.7kg, everything else is as weighed.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 4:45pm
Blimey Sam - what is your rudder made of !?  The other 'removed' bits are fairly standard so the only one with a lot of variance is likely to be the rudder.  The modern centreboard is only about 3.0-3.3kg  after all to give some context.... btw the M7's weight varied a lot as well - this was all to do with the age of the extrusion tooling at the point of production.    We also noticed that carbon (and historically alloy) boom sections varied a considerable amount in terms of weight over time.  Superspares had two different 'weights' of tube that were used, plus back in the Topper days (Mk1+2) you could end up with a  really quite heavy 'generic' bit of carbon (nobody knew who made them either) and when Seldon tubes were used later  they were somewhere in the middle.   The carbon masts on the other hand were very stable and uniform ....   I do suspect your rudder blade/stock though - there were some really 'horrible' lumpy ones way back. (but that has not been true for many years now )

I think GRF's real problem is he needs to put a few KG's on himself if he is to ever do more than dabble with a Blaze and get continually frustrated....  and/or find a better boat more suited to him.   The Aero 7 is possibly as near as he will ever get in this world imo ...  he just has to get on with it.  (And his Blaze will sell within days ...)   


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 5:20pm
Carbon mast with rigging 5.3kg (my M7 is 7.8 inc wires), North sail 4.4kg, rudder, stock, tiller and extension 4.1kg. Even accepting that my rudder is heavier than most* (AFAIK it is what was supplied with the boat) I can't see the all up sailing weight being less than about 85kg.

TBH I don't think we'll ever convince Graeme as he's been 'tainted by experience' in particular his windsurfing career (but there were some heavy old lumps back then too, the original Windsurfer hull was 21kg. But TBF his own brand, Mistral, built some of the lightest and most durable boards I've ever raced, in particular the original Competition Superlight and my old Equipe 2 (both were sub 13kg).

* The rudder blade alone weighs 2.2kg, just weighed it as I was concerned it might have taken on some water it being much repaired but that sounds about right if a CB is 3.3kg. Maybe I need a lighter stock and a carbon tiller... The boat is 671 a Topper mk2.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 6:33pm

Might even be worth suggesting a return 'to the boards' ..... maybe not.   I suspect any boat existing now or in the future however will still be found 'wanting' by some - it was ever thus.

 It is much easier, since the sector is unlikely to ever respond 'appropriately' for some, that they   adapt their approach rather than expecting the equipment to be modified, 'improved' or for class associations to rip up their rule book and respond with enthusiasm to the would-be forum revolutionaries etc etc.  So  1) Choose something, a boat type, that suits you in the general sense  2) Work out through training what makes it 'go' rather than seeing everything to do with it 'sub-optimal' when you cannot achieve things instantly. 3) Train with others who already know how to make it 'go' and start going to class events.  4) 'Keep at it' and then afterwards 'Keep at it' even more  5)  Try and enjoy the  learning process... If you do all of the above you will, with reasonable certainty, end up doing pretty well.  Oh and lastly try and stay mostly off the web negatively for enough time to get through 1-5 above before you are tempted to try yet more alternatives !

And do try an Aero out some time would still be the 'nudge' from me for GRF ... It is about as close as you will ever get to your long list of 'wants'.  Seriously and all Ďforum banterí digs  aside.  (And in case anyone wonders - I don't even own one)

 

Good luck with that one Mr Barton !!



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Sep 20 at 6:47pm
I think RS have paid grf not to buy one!

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Sep 20 at 9:17am
I did demo the Aero, almost from day one of its appearance and I was indeed impressed and don't hesitate to reccommend it, take pride in fact that it's a quiet British success story selling the world over. The Problem was I demo'd the D0 on the same day and at that venue (Grafham) they were chalk and cheese, the D0 excelling in every way so convincing I put the deposit down immediately.

Then I demo'd the D0 on the sea, which undid some of the confidence I had in it being 'the one for me' pity I hadn't had the Aero at hand, then the Solution came along and whilst not as excellent as the key points of the other two, it was a good compromise (and available instantly being S/H) I have enjoyed it ever since and still do for close quarter nip and tuck confined water sailing. The sea where I sail however is a different story and can very quickly become a boring procession, drawn out with usually only a single tactical solution which more often than not is boat speed, waterline length and power. It's only the fairly recent arrival of our new Aero 7 rider who's now dialed it and has certainly won some if not one of the recent series. Indeed wether I'm in the Blaze or the Farr inevitably he's the target between the Lasers and the Contenders to race against.

What would be nice is an Aero weighted trap boat to take on the Contenders with.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 Sep 20 at 11:22am
What would be nice is an Aero weighted trap boat to take on the Contenders with

Here we go again !!   The key point made so clearly !!.

OK OK so when unobtainium becomes more commonly used in boats you really might have your wishes come true... until then you will just have to work with what is available / possible in this life.  Just sell the Blaze and get an Aero...  you can sell the Blaze within days - they are about as common in reasonable used condition as chickens teeth at the moment.  You might even make a decent profit.  That nice Mr Barton will help you with the rest ....  Big smile


Posted By: heymatey
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 8:44pm
I race both the RS Aero 9 and 7; the 9 is great fun! It's so powerful, pops onto a plane super easily and is just exciting to sail.

Admittedly, the 9 can be challenging to sail to its rating in strong breeze compared to a 7, but in under 10 knots it's a total weapon. Once the breeze is up both boats go roughly the same upwind (makes sense, right?), so the 9 has to make up its handicap on the downwind legs. When it gets really windy, the 9 begins luffing on reaches, reducing its advantage. So what? It's still a hoot, allowing heavier sailors to enjoy a fun day on the water!

When talking with people who don't know the Aero, I liken the 9 and 7 to the L@ser Standard and Radial: the Standard is much more powered-up, the Radial is much more of a finesse boat. Like the Radial, the 7 is always searching for power (at least for me at 82kg), and doesn't take well to be manhandled with its flexible lower mast. It's still fun, just a different kind.

A few years ago I raced a 9 at the Alamitos Bay YC Olympic Classes Regatta in Long Beach California. On the long beat out to the racecourse I was sailing next to a Finn. He expressed surprise my "cute little boat" was keeping up so well, but that his boat would blow mine away on a reach. I suggested we bear off to test his assertion, and in 15 knots of wind, I walked away from him so fast it'd make your head spin. He was speechless...


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 29 Sep 20 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Cirrus

What would be nice is an Aero weighted trap boat to take on the Contenders with

Here we go again !!   The key point made so clearly !!.

OK OK so when unobtainium becomes more commonly used in boats you really might have your wishes come true... until then you will just have to work with what is available / possible in this life. 

Cirrus - iGRF's crusade for a light, longer that 12ft waterline length, usable, single handed trapeze boat does not require unobtainium. As I hope you know. It just needs a maker to grasp the fact that lightweight does not need extreme sail plans and hull shapes to go together. To my mind it's a reasonable wish.


-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 29 Sep 20 at 11:28am
.....To my mind it's a reasonable wish.

Of course it is reasonable enough... But if it was already possible, and more importantly was economically viable my guess is that we would have something like it already.   Perhaps you (and GRF) are missing the point.  You could easily argue that the Aero is optimal in meeting the 'reasonable' requirement now.  You know - reasonably fast, light, easy to sail, reasonably affordable, reasonably suitable for lightweights and so on.  But not everybody sees it as 'their reasonable'  or ideal boat naturally.  That is the market we live with, and anyone is free to launch their own 'reasonable' boat.   I don't sail an Aero, have any commercial interest etc etc - but I do believe it is about as close as you will get in the current or next decade to a proper Laser (other names for it are currently available - still a Laser to me though?!) challenger as a 'wide appeal' boat.   Trapeze boats simply cannot command the numbers to make that segment commercially attractive - either for light or heavyweights.  'Sit down' single sail singlehanders were the dominant present and future 20 years ago, still are today and will be in another 20 years imo.Change materials technology and that might no longer hold but I bet it would be applied to still dominate in this obvious majority singlehander segment .   That is my 'reasonable' take on it anyway  ;-) 



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 20 at 8:16pm
Well just imagine your Blaze made down to Aero weight in two options, with the racks, or without and you use wires?

Oh and a proper sized foil.

And on the fly adjustable forestay.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com