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Gull, Graduate, Wanderer or Enterprise

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13626
Printed Date: 29 Oct 20 at 2:11pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Gull, Graduate, Wanderer or Enterprise
Posted By: SueW
Subject: Gull, Graduate, Wanderer or Enterprise
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 12:48am
Hi, I am looking for a boat for myself and my daughter to sail together. My daughter has special needs and has limited flexibility in her spine as well as being tall (5ft 10 & still growing) So gett under the boom is a challenge.  Despite a mild learning disability she passed the RYA stage 1 last year and is keen to continue. Our favourite choice is a Gull as it has seats (daughter needs some back support), stable and could be rowed. 

We know less about the Graduate but wondered how that compares to the gull stability wise? Another choice might be a Wanderer but they are heavy and having seen one capsized last year, that part isnít fun although the Hartley boats claim to have cured that. 

Also an Enterprise seems a possibility although it might be too tippy. I accept we might capsize at some point but as daughter doesnít swim well (can keep afloat in Buoyancy aid) it is an outsider as a choice. 

If I went crazy and bought a newish a Gull do you think they retain their value reasonably?

Sorry for the long one and to mention I normally sail a Lightning 368. 



Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 6:10am
Enterprise difficult to empty after a capsize, your race is pretty much over.
Graduate deep cockpit, never capsized one though.
GP very stable but they are heavy.
Quest is a good boat, but again heavy.


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Robert


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 8:44am
I think you might find the Ent too tippy and the Graduate, whilst nice to sail, is pretty cramped for the crew. The Gull would be a fine choice I think, or a Miracle (nice seats) or a Laser 2000 (very stable and roomy but difficult to right if capsized).
Iím sure the Hartley ones are well made, and itís quite a niche boat, so no reason it shouldnít hold value.


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 9:22am
Thank you for answers at least I can rule out an Enterprise. I have been looking for a Miracle too but again barely any for sale and I am looking for a GRP boat if possible. 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 10:46am
Either Gull or Wanderer, I'd say. At our Sailability group we use a Wayfarer where we have used a smaller sail (still pulled to the top) and raise the boom by about a foot. It gives plenty of headroom and still leaves plenty of sail area. One Wanderer this would also work, and a quick experiment with borrowed sails would show what would be the right size. I'd start with a Fžrefly sail and go from there till one looks right.

The Gull might end up with too little sail to do this maybe?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 10:47am
Just to throw in about a Wanderer.

I was only talking to somebody on Sunday who had bought one for single handed touring. It had a steel centre board, I never knew they had that option but it appears they do. Looked ideal for his purpose and well setup with a multi sheave block to raise and a hold down cleat to prevent it falling back into the boat in the extremely unlikely event of capsize & inversion. The main also had a pocket at the top to hold a discrete mast head inflatable bladder.

Admittedly it would be a heavyish setup but dependant on your launch and recovery sites may or may not be a problem. 

The bloke was properly experienced with a range of boats, some quite lively and his initial feelings about this latest purchase were very positive. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 11:59am
Only ever seen one wanderer, looked a decent boat, you could probably get any centre board 'laser' cut by a local engineers, would put it out of class, but if you aren't racing it doesn't matter.

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Robert


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 12:23pm
Thank you our club already uses Wayfarers with Firefly sails for training in strong winds but I hadnít thought of that for my daughter and I in normal wind. If only Wayfarers werenít so heavy. 


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 12:27pm
Interesting about the Wanderer and a steel centre board but probably too heavy. The new Hartley Wanderers look great but too expensive for me. Itís a shame the older ones are so difficult to right and then empty out the water or I would go for one as there are some up for sail unlike the Gulls. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 2:17pm
I taught my kids to sail in an Ent with Firefly sails (blagged off a Firefly sailor mate). Depending what your daughter did her level 1 an Ent may or may not be too tippy* for her but it should be easy enough to get a trial sail in one. 

* I wouldn't have expected it to be tippier than a Gull or Grad


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 6:12pm
My daughter did level 1 in a Wayfarer, she is over 5ft 10, has a scoliosis and low muscle tone so not an ideal combination. I think if she was shorter an Enterprise would be great, she has inherited my height so we are not the most compact of crews 😂


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 8:03pm
A left field option might be a Snipe. Fairly rare in the UK, they do feature a notably high boom. But a significant drawback is they are a largish old school boat and pretty damn heavy.

An option for you, if racing is not a key aim, would be to get several inches cut off the bottom of the sail of an otherwise suitable boat, and have the gooseneck moved up the mast to match, creating a higher boom. It would depend, unfortunately, on the fine detail of the mast construction whether this was a fairly simple operation or so complicated as to be impractical.

Just went looking through Apollo Duck for inspiration, and its surprisingly hard to pick out a boat that would fit the bill.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 15 Jul 20 at 6:27am
Enterprise would probably do it, cheap as chips leaving enough money for a few mods, I have seen 6 footers crewing them, boom will slide up mast with a smaller sail.

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Robert


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Jul 20 at 8:44am
Originally posted by 423zero

Enterprise would probably do it, cheap as chips leaving enough money for a few mods, I have seen 6 footers crewing them, boom will slide up mast with a smaller sail.


Lighter to pull ashore, too, with the trade off of less stability.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jul 20 at 10:26am
The trouble with Enterprises is that the older glass ones tend to have more leaks than a Welsh allotment, and the wood ones with buoyancy bags are a nightmare capsized. The modern foram/glass ones don't look to have exactly generous tank provision either, but I've never seen one capsized.


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 15 Jul 20 at 1:28pm
Thank you for all your answers we have decided to keep looking out for a Gull. For the short term in the summer we will probably use a club Wayfarer possibly with Firefly sails or reefed. Also I am going to take a club Hartley 12 out on my own to see how that might be. One of the Hartley 12s was turtled within 5 minutes of launching yesterday, fortunately he drifted onto the reeds after 20 minutes of trying to get back in it (he didnít have a wetsuit on) so I will test it a lot before risking my daughter in it. 


Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 19 Jul 20 at 4:36pm
Worth looking at Heron as well as Gull. I've seen more fibre glass ones than Gulls. The modern FRP has a false bottom so brings up very little water.

I'd be tempted to look at replacing the kicker with a strut (out of class)

If capsize recover is a concern look at mast head floatation choices. If it's genuinely going to be very rare... secumar do a CO2 version which is pricey and obviously costs if you deploy it. Various other versions exist or just a empty bottle.

And if climbing back in is a concern work on a plan with a looped rope.





Posted By: cad99uk
Date Posted: 19 Jul 20 at 8:19pm
Another left field suggestion. Have you considered a Hansa 303W. I normally sail a 29er and RS800 but love taking a special needs lady out in our Hansa.

Great performance in the light and when it's blowing old boots. Reefable, will not capsize. The rig is a work of art and so efficient. I just love it.


Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 19 Jul 20 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by JimC

The trouble with Enterprises is that the older glass ones tend to have more leaks than a Welsh allotment, and the wood ones with buoyancy bags are a nightmare capsized. The modern foram/glass ones don't look to have exactly generous tank provision either, but I've never seen one capsized.


Bow tank makes a deal of difference, the  ent  regardless of   fully  tanked  or not   while it has   plenty of buoyancy  does sit low  when capsized ... 



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Jul 20 at 9:46pm
I believe the main complaint with the Rondar mk3 is the higher centre of gravity due to the double floor. I suspect the disadvantages are pretty small but maybe worth considering if you don't capsize much. From a cruising sailors PoV the extra headroom/legroom might be more significant. Not sure how high they float though.



-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 19 Jul 20 at 10:57pm
Thank you for the suggestion of a Hansa dinghy, we have tried that at Sailability but Abi didnít like being so low and being unable to move from the seats. I think for the right person they are brilliant but my daughter is really determined to sail in a mainstream boat and I respect that as she manages so well in a mainstream school and she managed to get RYA stage 1 at the same time as the rest of her group at WOSC last year


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 19 Jul 20 at 11:00pm
My Lightning floats high in the water so I am keen to have a boat that I can not only right but can get back into although I do have a very nice mast float 😂


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 6:10am
Only because there was an advert on right hand size, but what about a flying 15, or a squib (if you have access to fixed mooring).  Neither boat needs to be much more expensive than a dinghy if you go old enough and the keel means lack of dagger space and plenty of room.

-------------
RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 9:08am
I am at West Oxfordshire Sailing Club so no moorings or big boats there but thank you for the suggestion


Posted By: cad99uk
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 11:59am
Quite understand your daughters view of the Hansa. Best wishes in finding a suitable boat


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 12:01pm
Not sure about this, doesn't the Squib fill up and sink?

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Robert


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 12:03pm
Hi,

With regard to not turning turtle (!), our Wanderer has foam flotation panels for the Mainsail.

If you talk to a sailmaker, it's very likely that you can get the floatation built into the sail - rather than fly a buoyancy bag from the masthead...

The other option may be to choose a dinghy that can have a loose footed mainail (like the Drascombe - but one you can launch!)

Colin


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 4:28pm
I have to say that I prefer the bag at the top of the mast.

The foam panels at the top of the sail make the sail so much more clumsy to fold etc.

In addition, as you reef, you are moving the buoyancy down the mast so that it is less affective.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 5:01pm
Generally the bag is tied to the sail too, but is way better at stopping inversion than the panel. The one on the Argo made no difference even on a leeward capsize.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 5:04pm
Generally the bag is tied to the sail too, but is way better at stopping inversion than the panel. The one on the Argo made no difference even on a leeward capsize.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 5:05pm
Bahia still inverts even with the Radar dome.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 20 Jul 20 at 5:56pm
4230: "Not sure about this, doesn't the Squib fill up and sink?"

They don't. Squib is the Andrex Puppy of the sailing world. Serious respect.



-------------
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 23 Jul 20 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Either Gull or Wanderer, I'd say. At our Sailability group we use a Wayfarer where we have used a smaller sail (still pulled to the top) and raise the boom by about a foot. It gives plenty of headroom and still leaves plenty of sail area. One Wanderer this would also work, and a quick experiment with borrowed sails would show what would be the right size. I'd start with a Fžrefly sail and go from there till one looks right.

The Gull might end up with too little sail to do this maybe?

Rupert out of interest how do you raise the boom on the Wayfarer to accommodate the sail being pulled to the top please?


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 12:05am
Originally posted by polc1410

Worth looking at Heron as well as Gull. I've seen more fibre glass ones than Gulls. The modern FRP has a false bottom so brings up very little water.

I'd be tempted to look at replacing the kicker with a strut (out of class)

If capsize recover is a concern look at mast head floatation choices. If it's genuinely going to be very rare... secumar do a CO2 version which is pricey and obviously costs if you deploy it. Various other versions exist or just a empty bottle.

And if climbing back in is a concern work on a plan with a looped rope.



sorry to ask late but is the stability of a Heron similar to a Gull? also do you know if it has seats inside please?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 3:54am
Originally posted by SueW

Rupert out of interest how do you raise the boom on the Wayfarer to accommodate the sail being pulled to the top please?

On some masts you can slide the gooseneck up and down.

Originally posted by SueW

sorry to ask late but is the stability of a Heron similar to a Gull? also do you know if it has seats inside please?

Probably more stable and yes, but the downside is that the Heron is a 1950 design and the Gull 1956, and a lot of progress was made over that period. I've sailed both a fair bit and personally greatly prefer the Gull.


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 8:43am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by SueW

Rupert out of interest how do you raise the boom on the Wayfarer to accommodate the sail being pulled to the top please?

On some masts you can slide the gooseneck up and down.

Originally posted by SueW

sorry to ask late but is the stability of a Heron similar to a Gull? also do you know if it has seats inside please?

Probably more stable and yes, but the downside is that the Heron is a 1950 design and the Gull 1956, and a lot of progress was made over that period. I've sailed both a fair bit and personally greatly prefer the Gull.
Ah I donít think the gooseneck can move on our club Wayfarers and thank you about the Gull/Heron 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 12:07pm
We ended up fitting a higher gooseneck as we never use a full size sail. A sliding gooseneck would be easy to fit, though, they just have a wing nut to tighten them in place.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 12:12pm
Sailed the Heron a few times, never really thought that much of it. Like a small GP14. Somehow the Mirror seems like a better boat for the size, with loads more space because of the bow transom and open deck layout. Better than the Gull in my view too, but maybe not for your purposes.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Jul 20 at 12:48pm
I have sailed my Mirror 2 handed, crew and helm, both adults.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 25 Jul 20 at 12:49am
Heron - more stable than a Gul

Has seats in board

Has enough deck to sit on to hike if desired (unlike a mirror which digs into your legs)

Light enough to pull back up a slip single handed.

Modern FRPs rarely come up second hand though...
Modern ones very well designed in terms of layout etc

Can have under deck storage if desired.

It's a small GP (that's how it was designed) and a pointy mirror (the mirror was an easier build).

You want a bermuden rigged one, a d definitely not 100% Genoa

In 15 years - accidentally capsized once and have no idea what I did - was between races just reaching and bang.. have raced hard - water over the gunwales etc dump the sail and she sits back up. Sailed with 3 year old kid and adults.



Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 25 Jul 20 at 1:12am
Originally posted by Rupert

Sailed the Heron a few times, never really thought that much of it. Like a small GP14. Somehow the Mirror seems like a better boat for the size, with loads more space because of the bow transom and open deck layout. Better than the Gull in my view too, but maybe not for your purposes.

I am 5 ft 10 and 13 yr old is 5ft 11 and still growing I presumed we would be too big in a Mirror? 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Jul 20 at 6:44am
You might feel like you are more "on top" of the boat in a Mirror. If you can, jump in one and see. Same for all the boats.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 27 Jul 20 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by SueW


sorry to ask late but is the stability of a Heron similar to a Gull? also do you know if it has seats inside please?


Initial stability of the Heron is slightly higher due to it being single chine but there's not a lot in it really. Yes they do have inner seats. They're certainly more budget-friendly that Gulls, where even well-used ones seem to have really high asking prices.


-------------
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB



Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 27 Jul 20 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by SueW

Originally posted by Rupert

Sailed the Heron a few times, never really thought that much of it. Like a small GP14. Somehow the Mirror seems like a better boat for the size, with loads more space because of the bow transom and open deck layout. Better than the Gull in my view too, but maybe not for your purposes.

I am 5 ft 10 and 13 yr old is 5ft 11 and still growing I presumed we would be too big in a Mirror? 


The boom on the mirror is very low. They're great little boats but a Gull or a Heron would be better for your daughter.


-------------
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jul 20 at 9:29pm
Low boom easily solved - set the gaff higher - but I think there would be other issues with layout too.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 27 Jul 20 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by SueW

Originally posted by Rupert

Sailed the Heron a few times, never really thought that much of it. Like a small GP14. Somehow the Mirror seems like a better boat for the size, with loads more space because of the bow transom and open deck layout. Better than the Gull in my view too, but maybe not for your purposes.

I am 5 ft 10 and 13 yr old is 5ft 11 and still growing I presumed we would be too big in a Mirror? 


The boom on the mirror is very low. They're great little boats but a Gull or a Heron would be better for your daughter.

Thank you I guessed as much but it is good to know, we are going to view a Gull on Wednesday and hopefully buy it. 


-------------
Lightning 413


Posted By: SueW
Date Posted: 27 Jul 20 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by SueW


sorry to ask late but is the stability of a Heron similar to a Gull? also do you know if it has seats inside please?


Initial stability of the Heron is slightly higher due to it being single chine but there's not a lot in it really. Yes they do have inner seats. They're certainly more budget-friendly that Gulls, where even well-used ones seem to have really high asking prices.

Thank you I havenít found any grp Herons but have (maybe) found a Gull and yes they are really expensive I agree. 


-------------
Lightning 413



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