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Demise of club level class racing?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13624
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 9:30am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Demise of club level class racing?
Posted By: turnturtle
Subject: Demise of club level class racing?
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 1:34pm
following the demise of sailing theme; post lockdown, any of you guys actually still club racing properly or have the inmates finally taken over the asylum and it's all spreadsheets and adjusted PY chitter-chatter? 



Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 2:06pm
No club racing, Saturday second week club open, first week only 3 boats.

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Robert


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 2:43pm
Been handicap racing for 28 years at club level since I left Restronguet. Means I can sail boats I like.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 2:53pm
We start Tomorrow and have split our fleets in to separate evenings to reduce people around at any one time and at the weekends one start 12 and one at 3pm to again help with distancing.
We at LOSSC have 24 Rs400 so lets hope they don't all turn up at once for now, but would be great in the future.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 2:59pm
The world has changed and not just in the last few months.  Club dinghy racing IS about handicap these days but with individual classes still enjoying their own battles within.  This is nothing new imo and is not a threat to fleet racing at all  ..... where it counts at Open and Championship level.  The paradigm today is that club racing is where you practice and have club based fun and rivalries  in mixed handicap fleets - AND you then get out and strut your stuff on the open one class platform several times each season .. including at Chmpionship level.

It is much better than simply lining up with the same old lags (often in the same boring order at the finish) in a possibly diminished twilight single class fleet every week locally.  And this change has been decades in the making and is nothing to be particularly worried about.    I can hark back with the best of them to fleet racing in the 70's if I want as well (!) .. usually at bar-side before the bloody virus interupted normality.  However that is just boring for me as much as any trappped (and bored) listener.   But it does not rewind the clock and never did ... remember there is still absolutely nothing stopping any booming class locally getting their 'own' start today.  But if they cannot sustain the numbers at least 90% of the time it is just hollow and conversally a poor advert for any class involved.  Enjoy club racing for what it is today - but still chase after the purist one-class stuff a few times each year if you want.  That is where you find the best competition anyway surely ? 



Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 3:06pm
I agree with Cirrus on this one - some series at our club are sailing in fleets, everyone knows who will finish in what order and no one ever seems to improve. Very few boats show up. Some series are raced as one big fleet and its not surprising to me that these are the events where we see 20+ boats most weekends.

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 3:32pm
just handicaps. We were doing more class only stuff earlier in lockdown.

Still, had a 78 boat handicap race down the further reaches of the harbour on Saturday was great. There were 3 other 800s to race directly against. 

Luckily I pay little attention to handicap results, otherwise it would have been quite a  demoralising experience. I find it's much better to just believe I sailed the best out of everyone and chalk up any results that say otherwise as a glitch in matrix LOL


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 6:29pm
We one design race Solos ... we have over 50 boats on the register and typically get 10-20 boats out every weekend ... we had 15 out last Saturday.  We set up a WhatsApp group at the beginning of COVID and quite a few have organised up to 6 boat rabbit start racing, which has presented an opportunity for self improvement.  

The essence of our racing is to be completely open with the fleet with advice and encouragement ... whilst the same group of people float to the top, the podium places cannot be predicted and there are tight battles throughout the fleet.

The Solos as a class are very open on coaching and tuning, and we as a club encourage visiting coaches and organise home training sessions.

It is the best club racing that I have experienced in a forty five year sailing career.

We might be lucky or it might have something to do with fighting to keep our own starts and not becoming a handicap fleet.

The most likely reason why this might come to an end is our aging membership, though I suspect that most of us will carry on until we cannot physically go sailing.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 6:34pm
The Class I race also has boats in Holland and Germany.

Speaking to the Dutch (who probably have more active boats than the UK) they do not have anything which equates directly to our weekly Club racing. They seem to have facilities closer to sports clubs where they sail and practise more or less on their own. Somewhat like the model described by Cirrus, coming together at race meetings a few times through the season.

I quite like it and by default of being billy-no-mates at my present club find that I am pretty immune to PY argy bargy. At the European meetings we've attended we mostly manage to make mid fleet and on a good week might nudge just little higher.  


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 6:54pm
I am with cirrus on the this. Class racing has been on the decline for decades. I have been sailing since the mid 80s at a total of four clubs . At all of these clubs the core series have always pursuit races with the odd handicap race’s thrown in for variety. That not to say sometime class results were extrapolated from out of the overall results . The only , separate start, class racing I have ever done has been at opens and nationals. I am to only one never to has class raced at a club ?



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Jul 20 at 7:50pm
It's funny, kind of been my experience the opposite, not with any design as such, but our two clubs have kind of evolved from handicap to folk sailing either lasers or Contenders on the sea and for a moment before the lake collapsed we had four solutions. So like it or not and as I've been on record many times saying I don't, same boat sailing sort of evolves wether you want it or not in some clubs.

I sometimes think about buying something suitable for my weight then to go off in search of fame and misfortune, then I slap myself round the face with a wet fish and chuck a bundle of notes down the toilet and come to my senses.

Disparate Class racing and class associations are the reason the sport is in such decline, they're evil, nothing good ever come from the pursuit of evil.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 7:57am
The class associans fault now is it... Guess everything else has been blamed, so time to have a dig at them 😕



Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 9:20am
Here in Leigh-on-Sea, we have 2 clubs 500 yards apart! Leigh-on-Sea SC has Solos, Essex YC has predominantly Laser Radials and some Solos. The clubs do the sensible thing - on any given day, one club runs the racing. Sometimes its all in, sometimes its fleet starts. This gives an excellent critical mass of boats in the start area, making an excellent spectacle - 35 boats last night for example. 


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 11:27am
Originally posted by turnturtle

following the demise of sailing theme; post lockdown, any of you guys actually still club racing properly or have the inmates finally taken over the asylum and it's all spreadsheets and adjusted PY chitter-chatter? 

No racing here, but I have been out twice and raced informally against a friend in a boat of the same class. Not something that would be very interesting between classes!


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by iGRF

It's funny, kind of been my experience the opposite, not with any design as such, but our two clubs have kind of evolved from handicap to folk sailing either lasers or Contenders on the sea and for a moment before the lake collapsed we had four solutions. So like it or not and as I've been on record many times saying I don't, same boat sailing sort of evolves wether you want it or not in some clubs.

I sometimes think about buying something suitable for my weight then to go off in search of fame and misfortune, then I slap myself round the face with a wet fish and chuck a bundle of notes down the toilet and come to my senses.

Disparate Class racing and class associations are the reason the sport is in such decline, they're evil, nothing good ever come from the pursuit of evil.

I do think some class associations make errors, they can focus on the top twenty percent of owners and updating the boat to make it more appealing with the result that the boats the body of the class race become un-competitive. But these guys are the ones that do most of the hard work involved in running a class it is their right, but it isn’t good class. Instead of focusing on how light their boat is or what’s made of carbon it should be twenty year old boats are still competitive and you can pick one up for £XXX and with a bit of graft you will have a decent boat. 

Apart from the few who have the cash the future is SMOD mainly single handed and then for double handed it is a 200 or 400

The una rig non extreme single handed boats are where the action is, between the Aero7 and the Radial there is only a PY difference of about 80 and 8 active classes. You may only race against a few boats of your class but should get some good boat on boat stuff. 



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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

The world has changed and not just in the last few months.  Club dinghy racing IS about handicap these days but with individual classes still enjoying their own battles within.  This is nothing new imo and is not a threat to fleet racing at all  ..... where it counts at Open and Championship level.  The paradigm today is that club racing is where you practice and have club based fun and rivalries  in mixed handicap fleets - AND you then get out and strut your stuff on the open one class platform several times each season .. including at Chmpionship level.

It is much better than simply lining up with the same old lags (often in the same boring order at the finish) in a possibly diminished twilight single class fleet every week locally.  And this change has been decades in the making and is nothing to be particularly worried about.    I can hark back with the best of them to fleet racing in the 70's if I want as well (!) .. usually at bar-side before the bloody virus interupted normality.  However that is just boring for me as much as any trappped (and bored) listener.   But it does not rewind the clock and never did ... remember there is still absolutely nothing stopping any booming class locally getting their 'own' start today.  But if they cannot sustain the numbers at least 90% of the time it is just hollow and conversally a poor advert for any class involved.  Enjoy club racing for what it is today - but still chase after the purist one-class stuff a few times each year if you want.  That is where you find the best competition anyway surely ? 


Well written, and I agree with your general observation, if not the sentiment.  I'm always inspired when I see new classes pop up in pockets - Aeros I guess have been the most recent?  There were a couple of D-Zero fleets too iirc??? 

I don't have to hark back too far to remember over 10 RS300s on my then club start line of a wednesday night.  Rose tints gloriously foreshortening the times when it blew old boots and I couldn't sail it for toffee..... 

Anyway, the initial post was a tad tongue in cheek - it's fairly obvious what davidyacht describes is the wonderful exception to the rule.  Surely even the traveller events are rapidly becoming handicap racing these days?  Did the Sail Juice summer series thing ever take off???


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 6:25pm
Not this year TT

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Robert


Posted By: bluefish
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 7:41pm
Similar to davidyacht here, a very strong Solo fleet, turnouts are good and racing is tight, the class is well organised and regular training sessions outside of racing keeps everyone interested.  I find most of those with more experience will happily help new guys and are generous with advice, after all where is the fun in the same people winning every race easily, better to keep everyone progressing and racing tighter.

We have a mixture of class starts for some series and general handicap racing for the rest.  There's been two club handicap races post lockdown and they were both well attended.

There's also been a big influx of Firefly's, 17 new boats in the last year or so and almost all family memberships and interested in racing, they now also have their own starts and even an open meeting planned. I don't think we are just lucky, I think a lot of it has been down to the excellent class captains and their enthusiasm and organisation.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Jul 20 at 8:19pm
Yup, strong Solo and Laser fleet racing at my club. Usually 10 or so Solos and 20ish Lasers our racing. Flying fifteens too. Restarts this Sunday! Quite a number of 200s as well but they don’t have their own start or fleet status.


Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 15 Jul 20 at 9:42am
Tink, I agree with much of your post, but not where you pick on carbon.  There are some applications, particularly spars, where carbon could be cheaper than traditional alternatives, engineered to provide no performance advantage and offer equal or better longevity.  A regular review of any classes rules can allow sympathetic, evolutionary change without making 80% of boats built obsolete overnight.

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Europe AUS53 & FF 3615
National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret


Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 15 Jul 20 at 9:43am
Originally posted by tink

Instead of focusing on how light their boat is or what’s made of carbon it should be twenty year old boats are still competitive and you can pick one up for £XXX and with a bit of graft you will have a decent boat.

The N12 Class Association has been working hard on this over the past few months. 

1) We've worked alongside a boat builder to make a retro-fit adjustment system for T-Foil rudders and can sell as a complete package. Some of the older boats (1996 onwards) in the right hands can now give the new boats a run for their money in all conditions.

2) We've been searching for boats and contacting members who haven't sailed recently to dig their boats out of garages and onto the market so new members can begin their N12 journey. A 19 year old Feeling Foolish design sold within 8 hours of the advert being posted online. 

The above alongside a friendly and helpful class are helping to increase the numbers of competitive sailors when a new boat could initially be out of reach......


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3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 15 Jul 20 at 11:23am
Originally posted by andy h

Tink, I agree with much of your post, but not where you pick on carbon.  There are some applications, particularly spars, where carbon could be cheaper than traditional alternatives, engineered to provide no performance advantage and offer equal or better longevity.  A regular review of any classes rules can allow sympathetic, evolutionary change without making 80% of boats built obsolete overnight.

My beef with carbon is specific and have already bleated on enough about it in the past so won’t repeat. Carbon is fantastic, but it’s introduction into an established class has to be done with care and yes there have been many classes that have done this. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com



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