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Ovington Laser

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13572
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 3:13pm
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Topic: Ovington Laser
Posted By: tink
Subject: Ovington Laser
Date Posted: 27 Mar 20 at 7:38pm
Picture on FB of what appears to be Laser moulds on the back on an Ovington truck. Anyone got ant insights 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com



Replies:
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 27 Mar 20 at 7:54pm
LPE no longer a class builder .
PSA and PSJ are the only class legal builders at the moment. 
ILCA asked for inquiries to to be new builders.
A number of companies from around the world ( including ovingtons) have passed the first stage and are now building test batch’s to be inspected by the ILCA.
This is a very potted history , if I went into the whole history of how it got to this point , this post would be longer than war and peace.
If you are really interested there is a huge thread on sailing anarchy which covers the mess from the start. If the lock down continues until June you might have enough time to read it . 😀😀


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Mar 20 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by zeon

LPE no longer a class builder .
PSA and PSJ are the only class legal builders at the moment. 
ILCA asked for inquiries to to be new builders.
A number of companies from around the world ( including ovingtons) have passed the first stage and are now building test batch’s to be inspected by the ILCA.
This is a very potted history , if I went into the whole history of how it got to this point , this post would be longer than war and peace.
If you are really interested there is a huge thread on sailing anarchy which covers the mess from the start. If the lock down continues until June you might have enough time to read it . 😀😀
Thanks, not sure I’ll have time to read it all - working from home is tough as I have to work twice as hard to justify it and expect to do something called DIY, years of disappearing on a Sunday is catching up on me. Not complaining, have it easy really-obviously the NHS but also guys in shops, delivery and utilities. Gone off topic 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Mar 20 at 10:03pm
Working through a long list of home jobs ... with the extra time taken will hopefully not have to revisit and can have guilt free sailing for plenty of time when this is over

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 27 Mar 20 at 10:18pm
Surely Ovi are far to  competent to be allowed to build Lasers, it would obsolete 220,000 boats. Or would it be a condition that only cack-handed, blind, don't give a sh*t, YTS students who think adding resin to the hardener is OK, should be allowed on the production line?




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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 20 at 11:43am
There's a pretty strict construction manual and I believe they are hoping to tighten that up further, so the strong intention is that no-one will be allowed to build a better boat.


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 28 Mar 20 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by JimC

There's a pretty strict construction manual and I believe they are hoping to tighten that up further, so the strong intention is that no-one will be allowed to build a better boat.

That assumes the existing boats were built properly. Which contradicts the observations of a mate who used to work at Banbury (but not in production) when LPE were there 



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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 28 Mar 20 at 3:57pm
One would think that a builder such as Ovington should be able to consolidate the laminate, ensure better workshop environmental conditions, improve hull to deck bonding and ensure tolerances such as the mast step are controlled ... this could ensure a longer lasting product with better residuals.  If they could drop the price a bit, they could create the virtuous circle that existed in the eighties

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Mar 20 at 5:18pm
I suspect better QC and consistency... if you owned or sailed enough Lasers you know when you get a good one and when one's a bit of a dud.

Having the option and the knowledge to work it out when picking one up from Banbury was just one more item in a long list of elite sailing skills I never mastered.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 28 Mar 20 at 6:26pm
Yep, I had a super fast one with a gelcoat defect which I made the mistake of having replaced, subsequent boat was discernibly slower

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 29 Mar 20 at 6:50am
Of the three guys I know who have built Aussie Lasers, one is a very keen sailor who is still in the industry and the other two are qualified tradesman boatbuilders who have won nationals in non-SMOD classes.  So they don't have to be built poorly or by unskilled staff.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Mar 20 at 7:12am
It is obviously low tech, by modern standards, build as this shows 
https://youtu.be/wNR4O5YxKUY" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wNR4O5YxKUY

And this is a marketing video so shows the process at its best. Imagine the glass content is pretty identical for all boats. Resin content must vary with a hand layup and bonding paste all looks a bit slap dash. This could be controlled but at a cost. Then it comes down to tooling / jigging to ensure mast tube, board case etc all spot on. 

Interesting to see what happens. 




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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Mar 20 at 10:49am
"Each hull and deck is weighed to ensure a perfect match." Light hulls get teamed up with heavy decks and visa versa but which is best? I suppose TBF it's just fine tuning but who knows what the tolerances are.....

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 29 Mar 20 at 11:52am
I think getting one with the ‘right ‘ mast rake is the key 


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Mar 20 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by zeon

I think getting one with the ‘right ‘ mast rake is the key 

I imagine back in the beginning and in the manual they put quite a wide tolerance on it but never tested what boats sail like on top and bottom limit. Clearly somewhere within the limits there is a ideal measurement. A shrewd builder could figure out the best dimensions, invest in jigs and produce a better boat that was 100% class legal.  

I can’t see Ovingtons throwing them together, I figure they will build the very best boat they can that meets the rules and makes a profit. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 9:45am
List of builders currently going through the approvals process (if anyone is that bothered):

Devoti Sailing s.r.o. (Poland)
Element 6 Evolution Co Ltd  (Thailand)
Nautivela srl (Italy)
Ovington Boats Ltd (United Kingdom)
Qindao Zou Inter Marine Co., Ltd (China)
Rio tecna srl (Argentina)
Zim Sailing (United States)


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 10:29am
Originally posted by JimC

There's a pretty strict construction manual and I believe they are hoping to tighten that up further, so the strong intention is that no-one will be allowed to build a better boat.

Has anyone bothered to tell the Aussie builder?

The Aussie hulls have been recognised for years as superior.


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by L123456

Originally posted by JimC

There's a pretty strict construction manual and I believe they are hoping to tighten that up further, so the strong intention is that no-one will be allowed to build a better boat.

Has anyone bothered to tell the Aussie builder?

The Aussie hulls have been recognised for years as superior.

Isn't one of the causes of all this that LPE weren't working to the manual/and-or would not allow an inspection so someone could verify if they were, having been put upon enquiry. 

Certainly one of the guys at our club bought a new one for his lad who sails the 4.7 circuit, and when boats there were compared they were all over the shop, in terms of rake and even (IIR) lower mast section pre-bend.

So as to JimC's better boat, is that better than the next one or better than the shoddy efforts Laser sailors have been saddled with historically? I can't imagine Devoti, Nautivela or Ovi (don't know the others on Jeffers' list but I suspect RS would counsel against a Thai builder given recent experience) compromising themselves and building down to past dodgy standards. 




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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 3:45pm
Or to within the letter of the manual what is the absolute best Laser you can build. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by tink

Or to within the letter of the manual what is the absolute best Laser you can build. 

IMO that's the problem with a 'build manual' or 'specification' versus one or two centrally controlled factories under one badge/organisation ... This kind of guide is exactly that, a guide, it's not an absolute and is only as good a measurement and tolerance guide as its enforcement. The reality of an open market with choices for buyers is to incentivise the builders to look for advantage; you get a reputation for making 'the best' of something and you get the lion's share of the orders, and that counts for development classes and ODs, for example (respectively) Ovi's successful i14's and FF's.

One of the off-putting aspects of the L*ser long term has been this inconsistency and boatpark myth stuff, it was marketed like a SMOD but built a lot like a restricted OD class.


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 4:44pm
At a recent 4.7 euros there were so many LPE 4.7 bottom section that failed measurement that they were allowed to race otherwise there would be no one to race!


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 9:16pm
The funny thing is I don't know anyone close to the front of the Laser class who believes the stories about significantly faster superboats.  Certainly when I checked the results, there was NO apparent evidence for Australians (who obviously have access to Aussie boats) to do better in the world titles that allowed people to bring their own boats, than in supplied-boat events like most worlds and the Olympics.

It's a bit like the claims that you need a new sail for every regatta, when in fact people like multiple world Masters champs say specifically that you do NOT - Mark Bethwaite, a wealthy man who can get what he wants, used the same sail to win three world titles.




Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by getafix

Originally posted by tink

Or to within the letter of the manual what is the absolute best Laser you can build. 

IMO that's the problem with a 'build manual' or 'specification' versus one or two centrally controlled factories under one badge/organisation ... This kind of guide is exactly that, a guide, it's not an absolute and is only as good a measurement and tolerance guide as its enforcement. The reality of an open market with choices for buyers is to incentivise the builders to look for advantage; you get a reputation for making 'the best' of something and you get the lion's share of the orders, and that counts for development classes and ODs, for example (respectively) Ovi's successful i14's and FF's.

One of the off-putting aspects of the L*ser long term has been this inconsistency and boatpark myth stuff, it was marketed like a SMOD but built a lot like a restricted OD class.

The Laser may have been built like that in some places, but it certainly did not have to be built like that.  Certainly they are incomparably closer than the restricted OD class I have had most to do with, which is the FF and in which there are significantly different hull shapes, vastly different construction methods, etc. My 30 year old Laser appears to be completely competitive with ex-Olympians on new boats, as were the brand new boats my brother and I pulled off racks when we were young and top 10 nationally, whereas to use another class you mentioned my less than 30 year old FF was completely uncompetitive in many conditions (despite being #1 Classic at the nationals and able to score 2nd and 4th overall in light winds).  

Compared to my other SMOD hulls, also from single local factories such as the Tasar, Windsurfer and J/24, the Laser has been vastly more successful at maintaining class uniformity and competitiveness.  


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 30 Mar 20 at 10:42pm
It might be like that in Australia. It’s not like that over here. I’ve owned two lasers in my life , a 1978 one which I owned for nearly twenty years and 1999 boat . Both were good fast durable boats both built before LPE took control of manufacturing lasers. If boat park talk ,in every club a have been to in the last decade, has any credence . There is no way I would ever buy a laser build by LPE in the last decade if I want a durable fault free boat. 😔


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 5:52am
Originally posted by fab100


Certainly one of the guys at our club bought a new one for his lad who sails the 4.7 circuit, and when boats there were compared they were all over the shop, in terms of rake and even (IIR) lower mast section pre-bend.


I had a good friend who went to the 4.7 worlds a couple of years ago, supplied kit and 90% of the lower sections would not measure. They ended up having to fudge it to allow the event to take place.

Originally posted by fab100


So as to JimC's better boat, is that better than the next one or better than the shoddy efforts Laser sailors have been saddled with historically? I can't imagine Devoti, Nautivela or Ovi (don't know the others on Jeffers' list but I suspect RS would counsel against a Thai builder given recent experience) compromising themselves and building down to past dodgy standards. 


The big advantage for Devoti over the others is space, they have a massive facility in Poland (a former WW2 submarine base).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 9:25am
Originally posted by zeon

It might be like that in Australia. It’s not like that over here.

Sounds like we're 100% in agreement that poor quality is a possible problem with the class, but not a definite problem as some are implying.




Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 10:33am
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by zeon

It might be like that in Australia. It’s not like that over here.

Sounds like we're 100% in agreement that poor quality is a possible problem with the class, but not a definite problem as some are implying.



I know of several people who have had major issues with brand new boats from LPE. Stuff you can see not just stuff like mast rake (stress cracks etc.. that were clearly visible at collection time).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 6:14pm
How many people are likely to want a new Laser? 


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 6:35pm

I presume that over the past 50 years we have gained about 5kg. Someone in the 75 to 80kg range kind of falls between the big and small rig of the Aero and D-Zero so Laser a better choice. 


There are plenty of Lasers out there so economic to get a competitive boat and eventually people upgrade, if you have sailed something for years you’re likely to stay in the  same class, go up the chain and people buy new boats. 


Back to the build quality this is the mast foot 



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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 8:12pm
Wow, that is a lot of tolerance  in the fit between the mast pot and the step. I assume it was designed like that initially to make it really easy to fit the deck and hull together.

Maybe some hull and deck moulds needed this much tolerance to fit because they were built to a wide tolerance in the first place.

There now is absolutely no need for this much tolerance. If they are all like this then I'm not suprised mast rake is a problem.

It's a shame old Lasers don't get sawn up much as this would have been sorted out years ago.


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Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by Riv

Wow, that is a lot of tolerance  in the fit between the mast pot and the step. I assume it was designed like that initially to make it really easy to fit the deck and hull together.

Maybe some hull and deck moulds needed this much tolerance to fit because they were built to a wide tolerance in the first place.

There now is absolutely no need for this much tolerance. If they are all like this then I'm not suprised mast rake is a problem.

It's a shame old Lasers don't get sawn up much as this would have been sorted out years ago.

I think it probably took off so fast that though it could have been sorted it would have suddenly made an awful lot of boats uncompetitive plus probably back then no one was complaining.

I’m sure it is (I said this earlier) to build the boat to the manual with an optimal mast rake. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 31 Mar 20 at 10:19pm
Given that mast rake, on boats that can adjust to taste, varies by loads I wonder how the Laser has had an optimum/ideal rake for 40 odd years?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 6:55am
Thanks for sharing that mast step photo, very interesting. My first laser sail number 63k sailed very well but when I upgraded to a 144k boat it was a pig to sail, it screwed up into wind in every gust. I compared the mast rakes and the 144k boat had a considerable amount of extra rake. I have had 2 other boats over the years which had the normal mast rake so in my very limited experience 25% of Lasers are bad, I am certain Ovington can improve that rate!


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 6:56am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Given that mast rake, on boats that can adjust to taste, varies by loads I wonder how the Laser has had an optimum/ideal rake for 40 odd years?
Presumably as it has had the same sail cut and spars for most of those years.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 7:19am
The new kicker will have changed the optimum (I'd guess to more upright, as it's now possible to get the boom beyond block to block), and more aggressive squad sailing styles will have altered it too.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 8:36am
As I understand it, the tolerance around the mast cup in the bottom of the hull is irrelevant.  The mast rake is set by the mast tube, which is held in a jig while it and the deck are being laid up.  The gap between the plywood of the mast cup and the mast tube is filled with bog, and when the hull and deck are brought together the bog can slop around - the mast tube angle is not affected by the mast cup position.

From personal experience the top people (ie world champs and Olympians) in Lasers worry less about production variations than the people in the other SMODs I sail.  I'm not denying that LPE may have problems but that is a problem with one manufacturer, just as the J/24s had problems with Italian manufacturers, RS had a problem with Brazilian (?) manufacture, etc.

I think that Sam is on the money when he notes that it's unlikely that there is only one ideal rake, given the difference in sails, vang power, people, rigs, conditions etc.  I sail way inland and have to dial in far more twist than when on the coast. My arch rival (3 time world Masters champ etc) back in the day used a lot less vang upwind in a breeze than I did.  The top sailors have a very different style than most people so the leach tension that applies to one group is unlikely to be optimum for the other, etc etc etc.


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 11:35am
I have not expressed myself clearly.

The mould builders decided upon a larger diameter cup in the hull than the bottom of the mast pot (looks about 15mm to me)

They did this for a reason. What would the reason be? I can only think that boats were being produced in several moulds all slightly different (+/- 7mm) and this level of tolerance allowed all the hulls and decks to fit and so reduce waste, improving profit.

This means that the fore and aft position of the mast pot was +/- 7mm. Would this make a difference?

To produce Lasers quickly how many moulds were used? 5 hull and 5 deck moulds? Given the horizontal tolerance how accurate were mast pot rake tolerances?

The other option is that the fore and aft measurements were always spot on but the mast pot rake measurement was the one that was out. This I feel is more likely. as it is more difficult to check than the fore and aft position.

On a similar subject who has used the knot method of reducing mast rake on a Laser for windy conditions?


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Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 12:30pm
I dunno folks, I think you're making a storm out of nothing. That the Laser construction is a bit agricultural is no suprise.

The mast rake relative to the deck must be controlled by the deck moulding. That's surely going to be long cured and rigid by the time the deck and hull are joined. As for the mast rake relative to the hull mould, its going to be difficult for that to vary much, because there won't be more than a few mm variance if the two mouldings are going to meet at bow and transom.

So why a great big cup? Think about it. You want to get the pot in the cup first time, its very fiddly to align what you can't see. So a great big pot and its almost impossible to get it wrong. If mast rake varies significantly I would be reasonably confident it was an issue with the deck moulding process.


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 1:01pm
The rake of the mast tube will be set in the deck mould, and there could be some variance there, particularly if the mast tube is a seperate part of the mould from the rest of the deck. However I think the bigger risk comes from assembly.

Depending how stiff the deck is prior to joining it would be possible to introduce some variance. Potentially if the mast tube went into the pot at the back edge, and then as it was pushed down the deck moulding slid forward as the gunwhales aligned this could distort the deck moulding giving a different rake than if the deck moulding started at the front and slid back. 

It could be controlled with assembly jigs or with strict procedures but if it just relies on procedures it certainly opens the possibility for variation depending on the workforce.
 




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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 3:05pm
Can someone give an idea of how far out mast tips can be from one another? From that we should be able to work out how many mm the pots are actually.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 3:26pm
Hang on Rupert, you're surely not suggesting people should get some evidence instead of speculating wildly without any?

It should, I hope, be obvious that a very small variation at the pot will make for a larger variation at the tip, and that because of the multiplication effect wear in the various components will also have a significant effect.
It might be interesting to measure say 10 each of new Toppers, Aeros and Lasers to see how much they vary, and repeat the exercise with 10 of each well used examples... I'm willing to bet, though, that no-one will actually do it!


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by JimC

Hang on Rupert, you're surely not suggesting people should get some evidence instead of speculating wildly without any?

It should, I hope, be obvious that a very small variation at the pot will make for a larger variation at the tip, and that because of the multiplication effect wear in the various components will also have a significant effect.
It might be interesting to measure say 10 each of new Toppers, Aeros and Lasers to see how much they vary, and repeat the exercise with 10 of each well used examples... I'm willing to bet, though, that no-one will actually do it!

if they could stick them on the weighing scales at the same time that would be eye-opening too for sure Wink


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one



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