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Training aid idea

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13511
Printed Date: 19 Jan 22 at 8:15am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Training aid idea
Posted By: tink
Subject: Training aid idea
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 4:17pm

This not intended as something to be a commercial product just a bit of fun. It stared with thinking about speed through tacks and wouldn’t it be good if to knew that you were slowing down, by how much and then use this information to improve your technique. I figure that a system that would work would be an audio system, initially thinking that beeps would get closer together as you sped up and further apart as you slow down. This would only really work if it was comparing relative speed over the past den seconds say. This would ensure it works at two knots and twenty knots. 


I have started messing about with Arduino programming and it seams relatively easy. I’m thinking supper simple. You have a piece of rope tie it to the rudder stock and throw it overboard, near the boat end is a small container with the electronics and the speaker, the outboard end has a spinner, think Walker log. 


I appreciate there are all sorts of fancy pucks with logging and readout but this is just about in the moment understanding what is happening to your speed without looking at a display 


Any thoughts would be appreciated, again nothing commercial just a bit of fun. 



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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com



Replies:
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 25 Jan 20 at 6:54pm
Yes  I'd just like an audio feedback on the speed at all times.

Walker log sounds interesting. Or a paddle wheel type sensor taking the place of a Laser bailer or shute type bailer.




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Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 26 Jan 20 at 11:59am
I have an onboard system already. On a bad tack, I will get " the stare" from my crew. The very bad ones get a head shake as well.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 26 Jan 20 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

I have an onboard system already. On a bad tack, I will get " the stare" from my crew. The very bad ones get a head shake as well.

I have a similar system with my crew, they shout at me - I sail a single handed boat


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 26 Jan 20 at 4:01pm
When you start hearing voices it's time to really worry!

Just a thought, with the size of the Pike in Blithfield ( up to 44lb) , towing a small fish sized canister behind the boat could result in exciting moments


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 26 Jan 20 at 4:32pm
Particularly as I will be making a shiny stainless version of this 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 12:40pm
I would have thaught that a GPS module would be cheaper than a paddle and generator it would also reduce waterproofing issues.

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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by Granite

I would have thaught that a GPS module would be cheaper than a paddle and generator it would also reduce waterproofing issues.

New to this hadn’t thought of that will look at it, a much better idea 

Found that an old garmin and phone apps a bit sluggish to respond 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 9:15pm
I think you’d learn more from a GoPro mounted in your boat filming your movement through a manoeuvre. The problem with speed reading is you’d have to either watch a speedo, therefore stopping you concentrate on actually what makes a good manoeuvre or pulling through lots of speed traces on computer then trying to work out what you did in each one.

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RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Jan 20 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Neptune

I think you’d learn more from a GoPro mounted in your boat filming your movement through a manoeuvre. The problem with speed reading is you’d have to either watch a speedo, therefore stopping you concentrate on actually what makes a good manoeuvre or pulling through lots of speed traces on computer then trying to work out what you did in each one.

That was why I thought auto would be good, a simple sound system that changed to indicate acceleration and deceleration. That way it is completely independent of wind speed. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: johnbrooker
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 11:54am
I agree an audio speed read-out would be handy for training purposes- I don't think it'd be legal when racing in many classes. If it was an app on your phone it might be hard to hear though with the wind and more so if the phone is in a waterproof case. 

I always thought the google glass would be a cool way to do this eventually- glasses that overlay the speed over what you're seeing. That tech may be a bit far off though!


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https://dinghyracingtips.com" rel="nofollow - Dinghy Racing Tips Blog
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_-XsHqQUPXWd-cuuPZIUqQ" rel="nofollow - Sailing Tips YouTube Channel


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 12:20pm
Would they be known a "Sailing Googles"? Geek

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 1:51pm
Whilst many of the regular posters pretend not to be competent and experienced sailors, most are.

We can all feel through our feet, body and the boat ( and rig) the difference between naff, ok and perfect tacks. The boat feels alive coming out of the best ones.

And I am not sure a beginner having to watch and listen to outside inputs is going to help much


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 2:00pm
Something that gives audio feedback when the boat slows or speeds up would be useful. As johnbrooker says above a phone app might be viable. I'd suggest a continuous tone that changes frequency with speed, higher pitched=faster or a regular beep which speeds up or slows down would be the easiest to hear/interpret.

If a cheap visual readout is needed a paddle wheel device and a bicycle speedo may be the way?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: johnbrooker
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 2:08pm
Agreed Ian, depends what level you are at. If you are at British Sailing Team/ Americas Cup level I could see how that could be useful. 

Sam, the continuous tone would make sense. And I liked the "Sailing Googles" comment!


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https://dinghyracingtips.com" rel="nofollow - Dinghy Racing Tips Blog
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_-XsHqQUPXWd-cuuPZIUqQ" rel="nofollow - Sailing Tips YouTube Channel


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by johnbrooker

Sam, the continuous tone would make sense.

Just thinking about that one, maybe beeps would be less irritating Embarrassed


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 3:19pm
Audible would be a no no, people moan about my sailing watch beeping for every minute Angry
got moisture in the glass, left it in the window till it disappeared, works perfectly except for the beeping for every minute, won't go even when you cancel it in settings Angry 'SO' something sounding like a geiger counter picking up radiation would be a fighting matter LOL


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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 3:38pm
TBF this would only be for training as most classes ban electronic aids while racing so the only others around would be your crew and/or training partner and, for both, the info would be relevant.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Something that gives audio feedback when the boat slows or speeds up would be useful. As johnbrooker says above a phone app might be viable. I'd suggest a continuous tone that changes frequency with speed, higher pitched=faster or a regular beep which speeds up or slows down would be the easiest to hear/interpret.

If a cheap visual readout is needed a paddle wheel device and a bicycle speedo may be the way?

The changing frequency was the the thought of thing I figured would work 

I am dyslexic which means I don’t make the normal connections and has helped my career as a design engineer. Any ho - from bike speedo - bike bell, impeller rotates the hammer of a bike bell, as speed changes frequency of ‘clangs’ changes


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Aug 20 at 2:33pm
Zombie thread revival alert.....

Just been thinking more about this. I think I'm struggling to make best VMG upwind so I've decided to use my old Garmin Etrex to help out when practicing. Question, for the VMG feature to work a waypoint some distance upwind is required. I'm just trying to get a feel for the best compromise between pointing high and footing fast so, as I see it, it doesn't really matter exactly where that is for my purposes as long as it's in the 'no-go' window? 


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 9:09am
VMG toward a mark or waypoint is pretty useless for upwind tuning. The long tack will always show as better VMG. The nearer you get to the layline, the worse your VMG reading will be. 

You need velocity in the direction of the true wind over water (i.e. how fast are you doing upwind). 

Whether you want to follow the number real time or do post sailing analysis then the data needs to be pretty high resolution (1 sec interval or less) and you'll need to adapt your target numbers for wind speed too.

This is something most racing yachts will have and be doing if they are good. But I don't think it's possible to recreate it on a dinghy with only a GPS. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 10:33am
Thanks Mozzy, I did try it yesterday and was not able to get it to work satisfactorily. I just want to get a feel for the differences between pointing and footing really so a waypoint a couple of miles upwind would keep me in the middle of the window for a few hundred metres. The Garmin I'm using updates once per second.



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 11:57am
What would be easier (albeit rough), is to consider what sort of speed increase you need to make a 5 degree foot worth it. 

Do 5 tacks recording the tacking angle on your compass. Try not to tack on shifts when doing this. 

Look at your GPS post sailing to get an idea of your average 'steady state' upwind speed. 

Run the maths to ascertain how much faster you need to go when you foot 5 degrees to make it a better VMG. Then play around on the water watching your speed as you foot and pinch to see if you can achieve the required speed increase.  

I think that would be the only realistic way to approach the problem with the tools you have. 

Of course gusts and shifts wreck all this, even for instantaneous readings. And tide makes these GPS speeds meaningless. 

I guess this is why, despite advancements in technology, a tuning partner to see relatives against is very valuable. 


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

a waypoint a couple of miles upwind would keep me in the middle of the window for a few hundred metres. 
I'd set it about 50km away. It's only a waypoint. The further away it is, the less susceptible it is to wind shifts and skew as you sail out to one side. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 1:11pm
 Thumbs Up

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



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