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Simple Rule Question

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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13494
Printed Date: 06 Aug 20 at 5:23pm
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Topic: Simple Rule Question
Posted By: epicfail
Subject: Simple Rule Question
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 7:57pm
As I understand it the leeward boat has priority, so...

After the start of a race I am the leeward boat of a line of five boats on starboard tack. I need to tack as I am running out of room due to an island in the lake. Do I have to ask for room to tack or just slow and tack behind the boats to windward?

If I ask for room do the other windward boats have to move in turn?






Replies:
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 8:39pm
Hi,
Read Rule 20...

If you are close-hauled, approaching an obstruction and you can't tack and avoid a windward boat, you hail for "room to tack".
The hailed boat must respond.
Either replies "you tack" and then allows you to tack, or it must tack.
Obviously,it can hailthe boat to windward for room to tack (and so on up the fleet).
In this case, hail a bit early, getting several boats to tack takes a few moments...

Colin


Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 9:00pm
That's great, thank you. I'll try to avoid being in that situation but last Sunday I tacked behind and ended up loosing rather a lot. I need to be more assertive!


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 10:28pm
You're welcome.
The rule applies to an obstruction...
Than means that it could be an island, stand-on sailing boat or similar (see the definition of obstruction).
The one thing it isn't is the committee boat! That is special exclusion.

I learnt this one rule years' ago sailing on the river - also how to tack quickly and sail to inches!

Colin


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by epicfail

That's great, thank you. I'll try to avoid being in that situation but last Sunday I tacked behind and ended up loosing rather a lot. I need to be more assertive!

You need to read the rule carefully and understand that it is not a carte blanche.

Here is the rule

20. ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/rules/675?part_id=47&previous=true" rel="nofollow -
20.1. Hailing
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/rules/681?part_id=47&previous=true" rel="nofollow -
There area also a number of World Sailing Cases about rule 20 which are quite important.

Remember that the hailed boat can respond by hailing 'you tack'.  This can play out in various ways including that described in these two cases, which you can follow the links and read in full:








Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 7:46am
Epicfail, just when you thought it was simple...

Actually, in real life it is a lot more simple than the post above suggests. You may hear the expression "Water please" from old people like me - I expect Brass will now say how wrong that is!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 8:22am
Lol me too. This is  the first rule I ever learned, when I started sailing  Sailing on a narrow river in Warwick you tend to use it a lot more than on open water 😂😀


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:59am
Room at the mark, most common comment I hear, not from me though, I always avoid confrontation, life's too short, drop in behind or make sure you are first to mark/obstacle.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 10:04am

I had a very similar situation recently, three boats, Blaze (me) to windward and slightly ahead, and two Lasers to leeward in line abreast, the far leeward Laser tacked without hailing forcing the middle Laser to hail and tack immediately upon which, before completing this tack he hit me on the aft quarter and shouted "protest". I had not opportunity to respond so replied that I needed time to keep clear. Nothing more was said after the race but I'm still not sure if I was right or not. Because we were close it could be that I was in breach of Rule 11 in that the leeward boat made contact when tacking so I was not 'keeping clear' [def. "keeping clear" (b)  when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.] I'm not sure if a crash tack fails the definition of changing direction though?

Also I don't know if he hit me before or after passing head to wind so that may be relevant (before and he was luffing, after he was tacking) he certainly had not completed his tack (sails filling on the new close hauled course).

With hindsight I should have tacked off early to avoid the risk, particularly as the Blaze is not so close winded as a Laser.



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 11:00am
So three boats overlapped. RRS 11.
Leeward (ROW) tacks. On passing head to wind she must keep clear of all others RRS13. Presumably she must have tacked onto starboard, in which case she newly acquired ROW after completing the tack, and RRS15 applied.

Middle hails. Windward must tack as soon as possible (20.2) or hail back "you tack".

So, did you tack as soon as possible after being hailed? As soon as possible depends on the boat. If you were unable to respond in time then it seems possible middle broke 20.2a. It might be that middle was forced to break 20.2 by leeward breaking RRS15.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Epicfail, just when you thought it was simple...

Actually, in real life it is a lot more simple than the post above suggests. You may hear the expression "Water please" from old people like me - I expect Brass will now say how wrong that is!

<g>.

No problem with a hail of 'water'.

Case 54 Answer 4
Unlike rule 20.2(c), rule 20.1 does not require A to use specific words in her hail but, to meet the requirements of the rule, those words must clearly convey that A requires room to tack. The hail must be directed towards B and be as loud as is required in the prevailing conditions to be capable of being heard by B. A hail is primarily an oral signal, but in addition the hailing boat may draw attention to the hail by, for example, physical gestures, a whistle or horn signal, or, at night, light signals. If boats are required to monitor a particular radio channel while racing, the hail may also be made over that channel.
These requirements for hailing apply equally to B if she responds ‘You tack’.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 12:47pm

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


I had a very similar situation recently, three boats, Blaze (me) to windward and slightly ahead, and two Lasers to leeward in line abreast, the far leeward Laser tacked without hailing forcing the middle Laser to hail and tack immediately

Then she broke rule 20.2a:  she did not give you time to respond.

 upon which, before completing this tack he hit me on the aft quarter

Then she broke rule 13:  she did not keep clear of you.

and shouted "protest"

Nice of her.

I had not opportunity to respond so replied that I needed time to keep clear.

Avoid contact yes, you had no obligation to keep clear:  she was the give-way boat under rule 13.

Nothing more was said after the race but I'm still not sure if I was right or not. Because we were close it could be that I was in breach of Rule 11 in that the leeward boat made contact when tacking

Best to ignore the 'While Tacking' heading in rule 13 except to remember it by.

The transition occurs when the tacking boat passes head to wind

  • before head to wind, leeward boat is right of way boat (rule 11) changing course and required to give the windward boat room to keep clear (rule 16.1).
  • after head to wind, she is give-way boat (rule 13), the other boat has gained right of way because of the tacking boat's actions and is not required to give room to keep clear under rule 15.
 so I was not 'keeping clear' [def. "keeping clear" (b)  when the boats are overlapped, <span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.]</span>

Conceivably, but if she tacked right into you, she either broke rule 16.1 or 13.

I'm not sure if a crash tack fails the definition of changing direction though?

How can tacking not be changing direction?

Also I don't know if he hit me before or after passing head to wind

See above rule 16.1 or 13:  same outcome.

so that may be relevant (before and he was luffing, after he was tacking) he certainly had not completed his tack (sails filling on the new close hauled course).

Sails filling is not relevant:  it's just the relative angle of the hull to the wind.

With hindsight I should have tacked off early to avoid the risk, particularly as the Blaze is not so close winded as a Laser.

But presumably faster?

You're advanced on the Lasers and to windward:  at this stage you are in control, and you are entitled to expect that if they want water at the obstruction they will hail in compliance with rule 20.1.

Again, presumably you are going towards the side you want to go to:  you have no obligation to sacrifice your tactical advantage unless and until there is a hail.

Originally posted by JimC

So three boats overlapped. RRS 11. Leeward (ROW) tacks. On passing head to wind she must keep clear of all others RRS13. Presumably she must have tacked onto starboard, in which case she newly acquired ROW after completing the tack, and RRS15 applied.

 But not until she has reached her close hauled course.
Middle hails. Windward must tack as soon as possible (20.2) or hail back "you tack" immediately.

So, did you tack as soon as possible after being hailed?

No, because he was prevented from doing so by being hit by the middle boat which tacked in breach of rule 20.2a. 

As soon as possible depends on the boat. If you were unable to respond in time then it seems possible middle broke 20.2a

Dead set certain IMHO.  OP evidence "Laser hail[ed] and tack[ed] immediately"

It might be that middle was forced to break 20.2 by leeward breaking RRS15.

Or, IMHO more likely rule 13.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 1:05pm
Thanks gents I had just about reached that conclusion.

Blaze, faster but less close winded than a Laser? In F2 there's not much in it TBH.

I would definitely have stayed out of the Lasers way if I hadn't beed defending against another Blaze and trying to catch yet another.....


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 1:36pm
The other conclusion is that middle was correct in hailing protest when contact occurred, but it was leeward who needed to take a penalty. Of course if Leeward were telling the tale I expect it would all look different!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 4:53pm
That begs the question "if I was Leeward how close to Middle can I tack without hailing for room?"

I suspect he will say he had completed his tack and left Middle enough room to tack to avoid, Middle but in practice Middle could not without without hailing Windward (me) to tack first. What would Middle's best course of action be? I would probably have hit Leeward and called protest on rule 15 but would that have been the right thing to do?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 5:23pm
The definition of room includes all obligations under Part 2 rules. So if middle needs time to hail windward that's part of the room she's entitled to. Middle's best course of action is whatever she thinks will cause the least damage and protest. In general of course one prefers to hit the guilty party...


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 5:48pm
 Thumbs Up 'tis what I thought.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:40pm
Sails filling on the new tack does no currently figure in the rules.
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.
Sounds to me like the Blaze should have tacked as soon as the leeward boatd started to tack, it was only going to end one way? The middle boat is just middle lane flotsam, the onus is on the windward boat to 'keep clear' of the leeward boat.

And with its 1027 PY, the Blaze is clearly in 'in the wrong' if it's bickering with Lasers. Once they drag you into their PY 1099 conflict zone, you've lost.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

That begs the question "if I was Leeward how close to Middle can I tack without hailing for room?"

If you have space to tack and avoid M in a seamanlike way, you need not hail.  If M than chooses to tack in front of W, that's her look-out.

If, as JimC has assumed, you are tacking from port onto starboard, if you have space to tack, reach a close hauled course then give M room to keep clear of you, you need not hail.

I suspect he will say he had completed his tack and left Middle enough room to tack to avoid,

As JumC said, the room L, gaining right of way, needs to give M includees room for M to comply with her obligations under the rules, which, if M needs to tack and needs room to do so from W, includes room for M to hail W and for W to respond in accordance with rule 20.

 Middle but in practice Middle could not without without hailing Windward (me) to tack first.

Then L needed to give M room to do that as part of her rule 15 obligations, and if she couldn't do that, she damn well should have, herself hailed for room in accordance with rule 20.

 What would Middle's best course of action be? I would probably have hit Leeward and called protest on rule 15 but would that have been the right thing to do?

Ease sheets, pinch and back out of the sandwich. protesting loudly the while?

"take such action as will best aid to avoid collision"?

Once somebody steps outside the rules, every one needs to try to avoid contact and/or minimise damage.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Sails filling on the new tack does no currently figure in the rules.
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.
Sounds to me like the Blaze should have tacked as soon as the leeward boatd started to tack, it was only going to end one way? The middle boat is just middle lane flotsam, the onus is on the windward boat to 'keep clear' of the leeward boat.

And with its 1027 PY, the Blaze is clearly in 'in the wrong' if it's bickering with Lasers. Once they drag you into their PY 1099 conflict zone, you've lost.

I disagree, but only in the sense that M hailing and tacking almost simultaneously did not give W the chance to keep clear, W was under no obligation to anticipate L tacking.

WRT speed differences, in F2-3 sub-planing the Blaze is barely faster than a Laser but I agree that with hindsight I should have stayed out of their way. As I said above I was engaged in a close race with two other Blazes myself and should not be expected to compromise my tactics. But with nearly 70 boats on a small lake you are bound to come into conflict with others.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 11:42pm
Ok....maybe it wasn't such a simple question. I am enjoying reading the answers. 




Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

...

I disagree, but only in the sense that M hailing and tacking almost simultaneously did not give W the chance to keep clear, W was under no obligation to anticipate L tacking.

...


You can choose to anticipate it or put your head in sand, leeward/ahead boat on port tack, if he's not pinned down totally, will take his chance to get onto starboard at some point. Your supposed to be 'keeping clear' that means you have the spacce to respond without anticiapation.
Take the middle boat out of the picture, the windward boat has to keep clear of the leeward, and once the leeward boat is down to its stbd course, the port boat has to keep clear.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 6:32am
Think you're reading a different rulebook to me mate.

It really messes up rule understanding when people mix up a sort of semi tactical evaluation with the rules. Its a really bad idea. In the situation as described leeward broke a rule when they tacked. That's it.

There is definitely no requirement in the rules to anticipate that another competitor might break a rule.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 8:44am
In the L, M, W situation, if L hails Water or Room is he calling just M or both M and W?  Or does he have to wait for M to call W?

Our start line has a beach at the favoured end and if beating against a flood tide thirty boats will be heading into the beach on starboard ... given that we know that L is going to call, as soon as W hears the call he is likely to shout “water called” and push his helm down ... is the suggestion that he does not need to react until M calls?

I should add that L will typically carry on for a few boatlengths on starboard to secure an advantage ... but that is another story!




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Happily living in the past


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 9:13am
If the first boat to tack gets onto starboard close hauled course, others have to keep clear, end of.

If a boat manages to tack and gets onto a stbd close hauled course with the bow 1mm from the side of the ex windward boat, I think there would be considerable doubt about whether the tacking boat allowed room, unless they took a very slow tack (and we are talking about Lasers here). To say it's "end of" is clearly not true.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 9:32am
Originally posted by davidyacht

In the L, M, W situation, if L hails Water or Room is he calling just M or both M and W?  Or does he have to wait for M to call W?

Our start line has a beach at the favoured end and if beating against a flood tide thirty boats will be heading into the beach on starboard ... given that we know that L is going to call, as soon as W hears the call he is likely to shout “water called” and push his helm down ... is the suggestion that he does not need to react until M calls?

I should add that L will typically carry on for a few boatlengths on starboard to secure an advantage ... but that is another story!

Pretty much all you need to know about when and when not to 'pass on' hails.



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 10:27am
Case 113, clear, concise and to the point. For once, I'm not left with a headache!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Rupert

Case 113, clear, concise and to the point. For once, I'm not left with a headache!

but a completely different situation.
SS's description of his incident is not even self-consistent, so it's no surprise that each of us is interpreting it differently.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 11:09am
I'm not sure where the inconsistencies in my description lie, can't be bothered rereading all my posts just now so apologies if that's the case.




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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 11:23am
Thanks Brass ... I think that we have two or three different “water” situations running on this thread, but the discussion is interesting all the same.

The snap of a jib cleat tends to be a preface to the hail.

The reality is that collisions in this type of situation tend to be messy and time consuming to disentangle so tactically best avoided ... best to err on the side of caution.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 11:37am
No jib cleats on Lasers Wink

In my case it would definitely have been a good move to have not got into the situation in the first place.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

...I should add that L will typically carry on for a few boatlengths on starboard to secure an advantage ... but that is another story

Not to mention a clear breach of 20.2d. The hailing boat is required to tack as soon as possible after the hailed boat responds.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by davidyacht

...I should add that L will typically carry on for a few boatlengths on starboard to secure an advantage ... but that is another story

Not to mention a clear breach of 20.2d. The hailing boat is required to tack as soon as possible after the hailed boat responds.

Indeed.

This goes into the pantheon of serial misdemeanours, including the hail “tacking” before a sailor tacks onto starboard, as though this gives them the right to tack into you, more recently morphed into a hail of “starboard” in anticipation of tacking onto starboard


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 7:29pm
Wouldn't racing without hailing ( shouting!) be a lovely thing?

Ok 25% is required to inform and wake up the helm who hasnt seen you.

But losing the other 75% would be great


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 8:01pm
Depends who you are racing against. In some cases, the shouty bits with people you've raced against and shared beers with for years can be a lot of fun.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 10:22pm
In the L, M, W situation, if L hails Water or Room is he calling just M or both M and W?  Or does he have to wait for M to call W?

Our start line has a beach at the favoured end and if beating against a flood tide thirty boats will be heading into the beach on starboard ... given that we know that L is going to call, as soon as W hears the call he is likely to shout “water called” and push his helm down ... is the suggestion that he does not need to react until M calls?"
W shouldn't put the tiller down until his hail has had a response...
If there are 30 boats close hauled on starboard, then the hail should be passed form leeward to windward all along the fleet...
Original L needs to hail Loudly and in good time!
Colim





Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 11:00pm
Being involved in an incident is rarely fast so choosing how late to push it is a tactical decision.

Case 113 :-   http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1088?page=12" rel="nofollow - http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1088?page=12  says that W is required to tack on hearing L's hail "W is a "hailed boat" in the context of rule 20.2 and she shall respond accordingly.". There is no suggestion I can find in the rules or case study that she has to anticipate L's hail. 


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 Jan 20 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by ColPrice2002

In the L, M, W situation, if L hails Water or Room is he calling just M or both M and W?  Or does he have to wait for M to call W?

Our start line has a beach at the favoured end and if beating against a flood tide thirty boats will be heading into the beach on starboard ... given that we know that L is going to call, as soon as W hears the call he is likely to shout “water called” and push his helm down ... is the suggestion that he does not need to react until M calls?"
W shouldn't put the tiller down until his hail has had a response.

W is the outside 'hailed boat'.  W is not hailing and is not awaiting a response from anybody.

W can tack away any time he chooses.

If there are 30 boats close hauled on starboard, then the hail should be passed form leeward to windward all along the fleet.

Didn't you read Case 113?

If an outside boat hears a hail she is a hailed boat and must respond in accordance with rule 20.2, without a middle boat 'passing on' the hail.

If a middle boat that is hailed sees that an outside boat is not responding, then she SHALL pass on the hail.

Original L needs to hail Loudly and in good time!

Fair enough.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 12:10am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Being involved in an incident is rarely fast so choosing how late to push it is a tactical decision.

Case 113 :-   http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1088?page=12" rel="nofollow - http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1088?page=12  says that W is required to tack on hearing L's hail "W is a "hailed boat" in the context of rule 20.2 and she shall respond accordingly.". There is no suggestion I can find in the rules or case study that she has to anticipate L's hail. 

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/675?page=6" rel="nofollow - Case 54
Answer 2

I'm not that thrilled with the use of 'anticipate' here.

In English, 'anticipate' is usually taken to mean that you actually take some action before the anticipated event.  In this context, I think it must be construed as no more than to 'be alert', 'listen', or 'be prepared'.

I think it means that W can't say "I was taken by surprise by the hail and that delayed my response".


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 9:46am
Anticipation is waiting with baited breath, as it were. Certainly if in a line of boats heading off a start line towards a shore I'll be anticipating a hail. But in reality, shouldn't we be anticipating stuff in sailing generally? OK, we can't be in a heightened state of awareness for every crash tack, but surely the rules aren't assuming total obliviousness?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Rupert

Anticipation is waiting with baited breath, as it were. Certainly if in a line of boats heading off a start line towards a shore I'll be anticipating a hail. But in reality, shouldn't we be anticipating stuff in sailing generally? OK, we can't be in a heightened state of awareness for every crash tack, but surely the rules aren't assuming total obliviousness?

Here's the search for 'anticipate' on the Cases and Appeals

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/searches?search_terms=anticipate" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/searches?search_terms=anticipate

Relevant Cases are
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1014" rel="nofollow - Case 3


https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/675" rel="nofollow - Case 54



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 10:46am
Seems to me that anticipate is used to mean "act" in those cases, rather than "be aware". I can see why you were cautious about its use in the previous situation. I'm sure as hell going to "be aware" that a RoW boat might do, or not do something, even if I don't have to "act" on it till they do.

But maybe, as JimC might say, I'm mixing tactics (and self preservation) with rules, which causes distress and confusion. I might be paraphrasing, here!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 11:00am
I can't find where to put this, it is feedback on a forum issue, that of quotes not staying in the text area and straying across the adverts on the right makeing them unreadable. It does it on two different browsers so It's not a Safari issue?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 11:04am
> I'm mixing tactics (and self preservation) with rules,

You are I think. To require anticipation in the rules would make for a horrible soggy mess, because suddenly rule observation would depend on second guessing what other people are thinking. I think the current rules situation that one is only expected to act on what actually happens is 100% correct.

Consider RRS 15 and Sams's example. With RRS 15 and no anticipation required then leeward may not tack if in doing so, as per example, she makes it impossible for boats down the line to keep clear of each other. If a requirement that boats down the line were expected to anticipate that leeward will want to tack onto starboard were added to the rule, then the whole thing would get extremely messy "I can see a header ahead of of leeward: he's going to tack on it so I want water to tack now so I can keep clear if he tacks in my water". Its a minefield, to say the least!


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I can't find where to put this, it is feedback on a forum issue, that of quotes not staying in the text area and straying across the adverts on the right makeing them unreadable. It does it on two different browsers so It's not a Safari issue?


Thanks for warning us. I believe I have fixed the issue now. Hopefully things stay readable...


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 5:07pm
If the ROW boats don’t anticipate I can assure you that there will be an almighty pile up!  

This is why I asked the question as to whether a loud hail from L should initiate W to tack, or whether W can wait for M to hail.  The wording of the rule refers to “hailed boat” in the singular, if it was intended for the hail to get all of the boats that were pinning him to tack, then it would say “hailed boats” ... in fact 20.3 clearly makes the case that there can be a sequence of hails.

I accept that Case 113 sets out to clarify this situation, however imo it is applying common sense rather than applying the rule as it is written.

The biggest assumption is in trusting that everyone is aware of and working to the same set of rules.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Jan 20 at 3:13am
Originally posted by davidyacht

If the ROW boats don’t anticipate I can assure you that there will be an almighty pile up!  

In the boats piled up approaching the beach scenario, who are you saying is the ROW boat that needs to anticipate?  Not the windwardmost boat:  she's overlapped windward, same tack and the give-way boat.

Whatever of the dictionary meanings you ascribe to 'anticipate', according to the rules and the Cases I linked to above, a ROW boat is the one boat that is NOT required to anticipate anything.

This is why I asked the question as to whether a loud hail from L should initiate W to tack, or whether W can wait for M to hail.

Which is very clearly answered in Case 113 Answer 2

When a boat that is not adjacent to the hailing boat has heard the hail, and will have to respond before the hailing boat is able to tack, she is a ‘hailed boat’ in the context of rule 20.2 and she shall respond accordingly

The wording of the rule refers to “hailed boat” in the singular, if it was intended for the hail to get all of the boats that were pinning him to tack, then it would say “hailed boats” ... in fact 20.3 clearly makes the case that there can be a sequence of hails.

What rule 20.3 says is that a Middle boat who is not herself entitled to hail (maybe because she is not sailing close hauled, or fetching clear of the obstruction without any need to change course), after a hail from an inside boat, is entitled to hail and have a response in accordance with rule 20.2.

I accept that Case 113 sets out to clarify this situation, however imo it is applying common sense rather than applying the rule as it is written.

You may regard Case 113 as common sense.  Others may think common sense means that a hail always has to be passed on by each intervening boat.

Case 113 authoritatively resolves that conflict.

The biggest assumption is in trusting that everyone is aware of and working to the same set of rules.

I don't think that's any bigger an assumption in a rule 20 scenario than in any other situation.



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