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Laser Club Edition.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13454
Printed Date: 18 Feb 20 at 6:22pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Laser Club Edition.
Posted By: The Moo
Subject: Laser Club Edition.
Date Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 10:14pm
https://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/laser-laser-1/602143

Laser Performance now marketing a non class legal product. Cheap as chips...buy 2 and get 10% off.



Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 10:23pm
4 grand cheap as chips for a boat which can't be used for its prime purpose? Why not buy a class legal one nearly new?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: john80
Date Posted: 05 Nov 19 at 10:42pm
They are passing the cost difference to the customer. Does anyone believe that the plaque and sail button is the cost difference.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 7:20am
Is it ILCA for class legal and Laser for illegal boats ?
How many clubs will ban Laser ? Probably none.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:26am
I wonder when the Chinese will start making fake plaques (if they aren't already) LOL.

Its does illustrate how much extra profit there is in a 'class legal' Laser though.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:31am
Seriously though, if you only sail at club and regional level then it's a great deal and nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 10:51am
HI Sam
But then they sell it without the plaque to some junior who then finds its an illegal boat for the Regional champs etc. Not all parents would know anything about the problem.
I think ILCA should try to stop them selling them until they sort out the issue.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 11:31am
Originally posted by Gordon 1430

I think ILCA should try to stop them selling them...

I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear your suggestions about how to do that.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Seriously though, if you only sail at club and regional level then it's a great deal and nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

Exactly so, and if enough people do they can start their own Laser class association.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

Why is buying a replica boat any different from buying a replica sail?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 2:05pm
Because it isn't a replica boat it's a Laser built by the owner of the Laser name and brand, surely the replica is the ICLA dinghy Wink?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 3:26pm
There is something fundamentally wrong with all of this ... if Laser Performance can make a profit at the £ 4K price point, I wonder how much the sport could be grown by making these boats ďlegalĒ?

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 3:32pm
The class association needs to provide leadership on this issue, are they categorically stating they will not allow Lasers built by Laser, and they are not class compliant?

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

There is something fundamentally wrong with all of this ... if Laser Performance can make a profit at the £ 4K price point, I wonder how much the sport could be grown by making these boats ďlegalĒ?

It is a complete mess and all the parties involved seem to be doing their damnedest to kill the golden goose.

Originally posted by 423zero

The class association needs to provide leadership on this issue, are they categorically stating they will not allow Lasers built by Laser are not class compliant?

Yes they are. They have said only boats with an ILCA plaque (i.e., as of the dispute with LPE, the ILCA 'replica' of a Laser) will be class legal at ILCA run events.

You couldn't make it up..............


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 3:51pm
Neither is a replica. But one of them is deemed to not be built correctly, or at least hasn't been proven to be produced properly by refusing inspection by the CA on behalf of world sailing.

Or so one of the many stories goes.

Our parliament has based their behaviour on that of the parties involved with the Laser.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Our parliament has based their behaviour on that of the parties involved with the Laser.

ClapClapClapClap


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 4:15pm
Itís simple . If it got a plaque itís a class legal boat , if it hasnít itís not. 

If you want to know how we got to this position go to SA , click on dinghy anarchy, then  LPE given the boot. Then wade thought 70 odd pages of pages of posts.

Fill your boots guys Wink


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 4:17pm
And if it's new, with a plaque, and built/sold in Europe it ain't a Laser.......Disapprove

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by zeon

Itís simple . If it got a plaque itís a class legal boat , if it hasnít itís not.†

That depends on the class in question. Boats under the control of the International Laser Class Association need a plaque, ďclub LasersĒ need whatever a newly formed ďclub Laser AssociationĒ requires. How many of the Laser fleet at your cub belong to a class association? Not many would be my guess.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 4:52pm
An interesting though, like any 'Kirby Sailboat' carrying a sail without the official button, the Rooster 8.1 is not a Laser, even though it may have a plaque on the hull saying it is. But it does have a PN, and has had a National Championship or two. So if a number of 'Kirby Sailboat' enthusiasts decided to form a UKKSCA they could offer racing for any or all 'Kirby Sailboats' up to Nationals level.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 5:45pm
And would anyone bet against these boats being granted retrospective class status at the point when differences are reconciled?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

An interesting though, like any 'Kirby Sailboat' carrying a sail without the official button, the Rooster 8.1 is not a Laser, even though it may have a plaque on the hull saying it is. But it does have a PN, and has had a National Championship or two. So if a number of 'Kirby Sailboat' enthusiasts decided to form a UKKSCA they could offer racing for any or all 'Kirby Sailboats' up to Nationals level.


I fancy many Club Laser sailor are not even aware of what is going on and if they did find out, would be fairly unconcerned and might be tempted by a cheap new boat.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:02pm
Until somebody starts making a 'training' sail that is demonstrably faster I doubt clubs will be bothered about replicas being raced at club level.

TBH I think it would be good for the sport and the Laser if somebody did form a UKKSCA (or even a UK Laser Sailors Assn.). I suspect though that, unless it was formed and supported by LPE the first solicitors letter from ILCA would see it rapidly wound up.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

TBH I think it would be good for the sport and the Laser if somebody did form a UKKSCA (or even a UK Laser Sailors Assn.). I suspect though that, unless it was formed and supported by LPE the first solicitors letter from ILCA would see it rapidly wound up.

What grounds would ILCA have?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:08pm
What is RYA stance ? 
When clubs enquire if they can allow 'Lasers' to sail, what will be reply ?


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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

TBH I think it would be good for the sport and the Laser if somebody did form a UKKSCA (or even a UK Laser Sailors Assn.). I suspect though that, unless it was formed and supported by LPE the first solicitors letter from ILCA would see it rapidly wound up.

What grounds would ILCA have?

Sheer bloody mindedness Ouch

The RYA gave the Rooster a PN so I'd look on that as tacit approval. It appears that LPE are legally entitled to build the boats and call them Lasers so why should the RYA attempt to prohibit them from racing in the UK?




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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:23pm
I canít see the RYA touching this with a barge pole. Itíll be below providing PY adjustment advice to coastal clubs on the list of priorities!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:37pm
Just been reading the Laser Forum and ILCA intend to charge new Laser builders an up front royalty payment of $100,000 annually to new builders! Can't see that having legs........

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Until somebody starts making a 'training' sail that is demonstrably faster ]


What do you mean 'until' it's already a fact, oversize, under regulated, it's part of my grief about the Laser Yardstick, get a well built 'Training sail' and you'll be all over the standard rig like a cheap suit.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 7:09pm
It says everything about this forum . Big problems in the world largest class which have been going on for about nine month and we start talking about in now. 

We even missed their vote to change their class rules, never mind the their possible name change in territoryís controlled by LPE . Or even the effect of WS Frand policy on the class and its builders.

No we were all happy in our own little world , talking tosh about yardsticks and the lee bow effect. Unhappy 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Just been reading the Laser Forum and ILCA intend to charge new Laser builders an up front royalty payment of $100,000 annually to new builders! Can't see that having legs........

A lot of what's being posted is complete and utter nonsense. There's a phenomenal amount of disinformation going on.

Certain frequent posters on the SA website and the blog optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/ seem to have a number of interpretations of events that I suggest should be very carefully considered.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by zeon


It says everything about this forum . Big problems in the world largest class which have been going on for about nine month and we start talking about in now.†
We even missed their vote to change their class rules, never mind the their possible name change in territoryís controlled by LPE . Or even the effect of WS Frand policy on the class and its builders.
No we were all happy in our own little world , talking tosh about yardsticks and the lee bow effect. Unhappy



This topic has come up several times before. It goes around in circles for a while because no one actually knows what is fact and what is fiction, then we get bored with discussing how much the lawyers must be making and go back to subjects where we are making things up instead.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:02pm
Lots of interesting arguments and information 

Interesting that the photo has the Laser Insignia on the sail, clearly they arenít doing anything illegal, design register ran out years ago. Morally they should do something to prevent the laser race being passed off as a laser. Clearly they canít continue the Laser numbers, so starting numbers again, perhaps with a prefix LR would be a way to go.

A fantastic opportunity to get competitive boat at know down price, interesting to see where the residuals end up.

Good opportunity for the beach club holiday companies to renew their fleets

With a new carbon rig, at a similar discount, and there soon could be four full lasers to choose from. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:18pm
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13418&title=the-future-of-the-laser-ilca

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:23pm
LPE have the trademark for the Laser sail logo in Europe and the Americas, and they've used it on other classes, there's no doubt they can use it on their new club Laser class. Where it all gets messy is that there are contract clauses about what they are required to do if they give up being or are terminated as an official Laser builder, but those contracts seem to be entangled in US legal hell, so are effectively unenforceable, at least in the short to medium term.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Nov 19 at 9:27pm
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13298&title=ilca-drop-lpe-as-a-builder

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Robert


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Seriously though, if you only sail at club and regional level then it's a great deal and nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

I think UKLA would disagree with you. Turn up at a CA sanctioned event, tell them you have a club Laser and I am pretty sure you would be invited to leave.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 1:19pm
I guess the difference in boat lengths quoted on that site is a typo, not reality, this club Laser isn't shorter than the international Laser. One says 13'.8", the other Ex Display Laser XD 15'4"

Then I note for only 1750 you can add the carbon Laser Arc rig, so for £5745 I could get my fully battened radial Arc rigged Club Laser and have a ball at that Great Lakes series...

What's the handicap again?

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I guess the difference in boat lengths quoted on that site is a typo, not reality, this club Laser isn't shorter than the international Laser. One says 13'.8", the other Ex Display Laser XD 15'4"

Then I note for only 1750 you can add the carbon Laser Arc rig, so for £5745 I could get my fully battened radial Arc rigged Club Laser and have a ball at that Great Lakes series...

What's the handicap again?

Something punitive knowing the GL panel.....


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Seriously though, if you only sail at club and regional level then it's a great deal and nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

I think UKLA would disagree with you. Turn up at a CA sanctioned event, tell them you have a club Laser and I am pretty sure you would be invited to leave.

Yes they would but their event, their rules. There's still nothing to suggest that a 'Club Laser' is anything other than legit, it just isn't an ILCA dinghy. I'd be interested to see what the Great Lakes organisers take is.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

it just isn't an ILCA dinghy.

Correction: It isn't an International Laser Class dinghy.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

it just isn't an ILCA dinghy.

Correction: It isn't an International Laser Class dinghy.

LOL Which according to the new International Laser Class Association branding exercise is called "The ILCA Dinghy"


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons



Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Seriously though, if you only sail at club and regional level then it's a great deal and nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

I think UKLA would disagree with you. Turn up at a CA sanctioned event, tell them you have a club Laser and I am pretty sure you would be invited to leave.

Yes they would but their event, their rules. There's still nothing to suggest that a 'Club Laser' is anything other than legit, it just isn't an ILCA dinghy. I'd be interested to see what the Great Lakes organisers take is.



If youíre building a non Laser Laser you donít need to comply to the Laser building book. It would be interesting to if the club to the exact specifications or deviating, cheaper resin etc

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Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons



Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Seriously though, if you only sail at club and regional level then it's a great deal and nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

I think UKLA would disagree with you. Turn up at a CA sanctioned event, tell them you have a club Laser and I am pretty sure you would be invited to leave.

Yes they would but their event, their rules. There's still nothing to suggest that a 'Club Laser' is anything other than legit, it just isn't an ILCA dinghy. I'd be interested to see what the Great Lakes organisers take is.



If youíre building a non Laser Laser you donít need to comply to the Laser building book. It would be interesting to if the club to the exact specifications or deviating, cheaper resin etc

To be fair Tink I don't think is likely to be a cheaper resin, the Laser/ILCA dinghy uses Polyester resin and CSM, probably about the cheapest fibreglass arrangement there is! There are some foam stringers and areas where the hull get extra material though (which was the crux of the most recent fallout between ILCA/LP/GSA).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 4:43pm
True, but it is a Laser, it's the ILCA sanctioned 'Kirby Sailboat' that is not a Laser (at least in EU and US).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons



Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Seriously though, if you only sail at club and regional level then it's a great deal and nothing illegal or immoral about buying and racing one (unlike buying a replica sail for example).

I think UKLA would disagree with you. Turn up at a CA sanctioned event, tell them you have a club Laser and I am pretty sure you would be invited to leave.

Yes they would but their event, their rules. There's still nothing to suggest that a 'Club Laser' is anything other than legit, it just isn't an ILCA dinghy. I'd be interested to see what the Great Lakes organisers take is.


I would imagine that the 
If youíre building a non Laser Laser you donít need to comply to the Laser building book. It would be interesting to if the club to the exact specifications or deviating, cheaper resin etc

To be fair Tink I don't think is likely to be a cheaper resin, the Laser/ILCA dinghy uses Polyester resin and CSM, probably about the cheapest fibreglass arrangement there is! There are some foam stringers and areas where the hull get extra material though (which was the crux of the most recent fallout between ILCA/LP/GSA).
I would imagine that the resin and CSM has a spec, approval and approved vendors  (a bit like the button on the sail) if you can work out side these limitations you will make cost savings. Similarly the spars are made within a tight tolerance and relaxing them will reduce costs.

Manufacturing stuff to a specification is relatively easy, the processes and proving the parts are in specification adds cost. The difference in cost between the button and non button sail isnít all profit, much is to do with the extra checks that have to be made and certificated. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 7:29pm
But the sailmaker certifies his own work (as does the builder, apart from an infrequent inspection by the LLCA). A 'Class Legal sail' with a button is £130 more than an identical 'Class Compliant' sail without. I wonder how much of that goes to ILCA?

Apparently the spars vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer too.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 7:38pm
Both button and none button sails will be cut from templates, and sew together. The non button sail may get a couple of measurements taken and then shipped. The bottom sail will require multiple measurements  and they will be logged so a certificate can be drawn up. Any out of tolerance will be reworked or scraped the cost spread over all the button sails. It simply cost more to prove it is in specification and certificate it. But some will got to ILCA 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 8:56pm
Or, more likely they'll just make them to the template and job done. I'm not aware of individual sails having a certificate and tolerances will be sufficient that they'll be able to build 95% )or, most likely 100%) to spec without any special consideration.

Laser (see what I did there) cutting and a visual inspection should guarantee sufficient accuracy.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 10:39pm
The volume of sails gave them access to lower labour cost suppliers to make a basic low cost sail.

Surely anyone with average business skills could have made money, continued to give the class their nominal cut and kept the " replica " market out?

But crazy prices and too many layers in the distribution chain has been an important part of this mess.


Posted By: Steve Middleton
Date Posted: 07 Nov 19 at 10:57pm
So here we are...sailing anarchy! Driven by the bottom line. No regard for the "health" of dinghy racing.


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 10:19am
I know I was dismissive of this forum and this thread earlier . But to compare it to SA is inaccurate and to be honest a little silly. This place may be many things but no way does it have the bile and the amount of nastiness that SA does . And we have a lot less trolls 😀


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 10:24am
LPE, PSA, PSJ etc have no interest in the health of the sport beyond where it might impact on profits.

Small volume manufacturers like Hartleys and RS are run by enthusiasts who actually sail the boats and care about dinghy sailing. This is clearly not the case with Laser.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 10:30am
I agree completely. Mark Hartley has been at Blithfield recently introducing his lad to sailing ( if 20 kts in a Wayfarer can be an intro!)


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 10:39am
So a UK builder employing UK boat builders gets fed up with all the nonsense, the politics and in-fighting of cross continent class warfare, and decides y'know what, we're just going to offer our ACTUAL customers a better deal.... yet the forum is full of whinging and politicising the matter.

They've just made one of the most popular club racing boats in the history of dinghy sailing cheaper than a decent E-Mountain Bike....  and marketing clearly at grass roots club sailors, sans bullsh*t... they even offer a finance package making a new boat accessible for more people.

Way to go Laser.... and this is coming from someone who wouldn't have peeved on them if the factory was burning not so long ago.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 10:51am
Personally I have a lot more problems with this place than SA. One difference is that on SA abusive trolls tend to be called out.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 11:02am
Originally posted by turnturtle

So a UK builder employing UK boat builders

Are you sure that's what they are? Its difficult to be sure of the complications, but if I understand correctly they are now an American builder building boats in Portugal.


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 11:28am
I am sure that most on this forum understand the new offer. But it would be useful to learn exactly the implications of the existing Laser being sold by them as a "racing" boat and the Club as a "sailing" boat.

Will this cause problems for clubs wishing to hold Laser racing events?


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 11:30am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by turnturtle

So a UK builder employing UK boat builders

Are you sure that's what they are? Its difficult to be sure of the complications, but if I understand correctly they are now an American builder building boats in Portugal.

Thatís the way I see it too with one difference, an American builder building none class legal boats in Portugal LOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 11:48am
From a recent 'Sail World' article :-

"The UK Laser Association notes that the Laser Club is a training boat and may not be eligible to race in events sanctioned by UKLA, however it may be a good option for sailing schools and resorts within LP's territory."

my italics


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 11:51am
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

I am sure that most on this forum understand the new offer. But it would be useful to learn exactly the implications of the existing Laser being sold by them as a "racing" boat and the Club as a "sailing" boat.

Will this cause problems for clubs wishing to hold Laser racing events?

Nobody knows for sure at the moment how it will pan out. But as it stands the Racing boat with its WS plaque is a class legal boat which can be used in ILCA races from the Olympics down to club opens. The club boat is not a class legal boat but itís unlikely ( but possible) that most clubs would stop you sailing it at club races. 
Itís all a bit of a mess , with lots of ball in the air. Will LPE start itís own class for its own boats ? Will LPE be reinstated as a class builder ? Who is going to be the new builder/builders ? Will the Law Courts be involved? Are just some of the questions.
At the moment knowbody knows and we await further info from the ILCA. 


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

LPE, PSA, PSJ etc have no interest in the health of the sport beyond where it might impact on profits.

Small volume manufacturers like Hartleys and RS are run by enthusiasts who actually sail the boats and care about dinghy sailing. This is clearly not the case with Laser.

I think you are very wrong to group PSA and PSA with LPE. They have very different company ethics.

I do agree about your point about RS , less so about Harleys. They have ridden rough shod over class associations in the past. 


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 12:02pm
At least on Apolloduck they are now making it clear that it's not a class compliant boat and perhaps their website will also be made clearer when they return from their 8 days closure?


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by zeon



Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

LPE, PSA, PSJ etc have no interest in the health of the sport beyond where it might impact on profits.
Small volume manufacturers like Hartleys and RS are run by enthusiasts who actually sail the boats and care about dinghy sailing. This is clearly not the case with Laser.

I think you are very wrong to group PSA and PSA with LPE. They have very different company ethics.
I do agree about your point about RS , less so about Harleys. They have ridden rough shod over class associations in the past.†



Perhaps my feeling about the Hartleys is tempered because they are willing to discuss and explain their policies at the highest levels face to face. And I speak with experience of their " riding" in another class.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 12:30pm
Jimc, finding it difficult to see SA in anyway shape or form being in comparison with Y&Y, majority of it is schoolboy boring rubbish.
A couple of times I have thought about asking people not to refer to it on here, I personally know a couple of kids and youths who read Y&Y, wouldn't like them to access SA.

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Robert


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

But the sailmaker certifies his own work (as does the builder, apart from an infrequent inspection by the LLCA). A 'Class Legal sail' with a button is £130 more than an identical 'Class Compliant' sail without. I wonder how much of that goes to ILCA?

Apparently the spars vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer too.

Its about £25 a sail for the button I also doubt there is any difference. The QA on genuine Laser sails always has been questionable. I remember checking a batch that was bought by our club members some years ago. The difference was massive between sails.

Does make you question how the 'replica' manufacturers can produce a better product with more consistent quality though eh.... (the last batch of replicas I checked were pretty much identical when laid out).

Spars it depends on how close the extrustion die is to being replaced. A mast from a new die will have thinner walls than a mast from a die that is needing replacement. 


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

From a recent 'Sail World' article :-

"The UK Laser Association notes that the Laser Club is a training boat and may not be eligible to race in events sanctioned by UKLA, however it may be a good option for sailing schools and resorts within LP's territory."

my italics

Right up to the point when those ex centre boats make their way into the wider market and are sold as class legal boats...up to the point where someone gets binned for having one at a UKLA event and then leaves the sport for good.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 2:28pm
That's a definite possibility but LPE are entitled to build and sell the boats and ILCA are entitled to refuse them entry to their events. It's a mess but, in reality, I don't think that will be a problem, there's been so much hoo-ha most people buying a Laser to race at events will be aware of what has been going on.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:36pm
The people I would most worry about are kids going into the Laser 4.7 and unwittingly buying one secondhand.

When my lad was in a 4.7 there were a number of instances of kids with non sailing parents getting pinged for replica kit, blissfully unaware it was a problem up until race day. It's bad enough having to stump up for a new bottom section!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:39pm
Yup, that could be a problem, I'd those kids are almost certainly a product of an RYA centre so it's part of the centre's/RYA's remit to ensure parents know what not to buy if they, the trainers, are encouraging the kids to start racing the circuit. 

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:03pm
It is not just UKLA/ILCA events where you have to be class-legal; it's any race run under WS Rules, which means any race at your local club, provided that it organises races under the WS Rules. A Race Committee cannot amend the class rules without the CA's permission, or pretend they don't apply. Anyone turning up to race with a Club Laser runs the risk of being protested by other competitors.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

That's a definite possibility but LPE are entitled to build and sell the boats and ILCA are entitled to refuse them entry to their events. It's a mess but, in reality, I don't think that will be a problem, there's been so much hoo-ha most people buying a Laser to race at events will be aware of what has been going on.

 
So much traffic on here this afternoon I think the main item on the news will be slump in UK productivity.

Interesting that you could buy a LPE, sail it club racing on a Sunday and then not be allowed to sail it at an open event at your own club. 

It seams preposterous that it has come to this, fair play on ILCA ensuring boats are in specification but surely answer is that LPE come back in the fold.

All new boats get an introductorydiscount, and perhaps LPE has stock, but I suspect if the club laser gets traction it will only be 1K cheaper than a legitimate boat in a year. The AD duck add is also light on details, spec of ropes, kicker etc. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by deadrock

It is not just UKLA/ILCA events where you have to be class-legal; it's any race run under WS Rules, which means any race at your local club, provided that it organises races under the WS Rules. A Race Committee cannot amend the class rules without the CA's permission, or pretend they don't apply. Anyone turning up to race with a Club Laser runs the risk of being protested by other competitors.

That's not really true.
So long as you enter a PY race honestly, it's up to the RC to allocate you a PY.
If the NOR only invites Lasers (or other dinghies of recognised classes or whatever)  to race that might be different.

The class rules of a handicap race are the rules of the handicap scheme.
Locally, we can run a race for 'Lasers' and allow ILCA dinghies to race against Lasers with replica sails. We do that, because we actually value having people come out and race.

Plenty of yachts racing outside their OD class rules under IRC, it's the same rulebook.
Plenty of boats racing that don't have functioning class associations or class rules.

The final irony would be if clubs started sending in PY returns for 'club lasers' separately and they got a slower PY.

Obviously ILCA-endorsed races are for ILCA-endorsed boats sailed by ILCA members.


Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:48pm
Sorry, I was talking about class racing. Is there any other kind?


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by tink

..
 
Interesting that you could buy a LPE, sail it club racing on a Sunday and then not be allowed to sail it at an open event at your own club. 

It seams preposterous that it has come to this, fair play on ILCA ensuring boats are in specification but surely answer is that LPE come back in the fold.

All new boats get an introductorydiscount, and perhaps LPE has stock, but I suspect if the club laser gets traction it will only be 1K cheaper than a legitimate boat in a year. The AD duck add is also light on details, spec of ropes, kicker etc. 


Possibly LP-Midlands or whatever they are has decided not to bother with ILCA and just knock out club/training boats. That would be a commercial decision not to be taken lightly, but take away the costs of supporting world level racing and all that, the break-even factory gate price of a non-compliant Laser could be much less than £4k. The rig is £150 worth of poles, the sail is £200 from Rooster, the foils are low tech heavy mouldings, the fittings and rope a couple of hundred tops. The hull is 60s-tech GRP. No development to amortise, not much marketing needed, resorts, training centres and club sailors will buy them.
Maybe the Aero has made the official ILCA Laser game not worth the candle any more?

And the boat's not that awful Trabant Blue colour.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by deadrock

Sorry, I was talking about class racing. Is there any other kind?

Where's the 'facepalm' emoji LOL


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 6:08pm
What's an emoji ?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 6:08pm
Actually a club can have class racing for Lasers and include both LPE Club Lasers (which are, actually 'Lasers') and ILCA Dinghies (which aren't)...... It just specifies that the Class is for both types of boat.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 6:09pm


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 10:21am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by turnturtle

So a UK builder employing UK boat builders

Are you sure that's what they are? Its difficult to be sure of the complications, but if I understand correctly they are now an American builder building boats in Portugal.

if so I stand corrected - I thought they were coming out of Banbury, thanks for the clarification. Thumbs Up


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 10:42am
I could be wrong, LPE are not altogether forthcoming with anything that relates to their company structure, and I'm no expert on this stuff anyway, but the government returns for Laser Performance (Europe) and its parents seem to indicate companies that aren't doing significant trading. It all seems to have gone elsewhere in the maze of companies under the same general ownership. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00922893/filing-history


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 11:39am
I've been down that rabbit hole before too... best of luck, it leads nowhere quickly!

I'm basing my assertion thy're UK produced due to sharing the same junction on the M40 as 8 stackers with new lasers reasonably frequently.  They're often in the middle lane taking the 422 to Northampton.

Of course, I've no idea if it's the Banbury site that are still producing these club boats- it would make sense logistically.


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 09 Nov 19 at 1:20pm
No one knows for sure but,
1) The owner of LPE has talked about moving all boat production post brexit.
2) LPE have posted pics of boats being made at their new site in Portugal ( not lasers though )
3) The Long Buckley site is for sale.

Its just a case of joining the dotes, on the other hand it could be adding 2+2 and getting five. Only time will tell Smile



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