Print Page | Close Window

So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13443
Printed Date: 15 Dec 19 at 1:39pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: So, just how important is a Boats PY yardstick?
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 6:57pm
Farr be it from me, to wind this place up to another Frenzy, but the back ground to this question is the Jolly little Farr 3.7 and it's acquisition by, I'm going to guess a young chap about to try and do battle at a club called Netley (No I've never heard of it either, but I think Dougaldog must have some sway there). Anyway the long and the short of it is the boat is quite challenging to sail to it's handicap. Wether that be the 1063 I'm using ex Great Lakes, or the 1039 the class at some stage must have suggested, or the 1035, that Lyme put in place for an ex hot shot Contender guy. Either way Netley in their wisdom have decided to stuff the poor chap with some thing quite impossible.

I've long since given up on any thought that the system currently in place is ever going to do the 'right' thing for embryonic classes, quite the contrary, in fact, we all know it is often used to suppress any new class unless it is supported by the 'right' people.

So, I wonder how many of you folk here are really that concerned about the yardstick rating your particular current ride enjoys?

And, do we think the current system really serves our best interest, given the broader scope of handicap racing that exists these days, over class events?

Or do we just enjoy the ride and to hell with the spreadsheet results?

So, consider the blue touch paper well and truly lit.



-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website



Replies:
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 7:38pm
There are far to many variables, I just get a feeling of where I am against my peers and hope to improve over time.

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 7:57pm
The difference in speed between two boats from the same class with one sailed by a normal club sailor and the other by a "superstar" is much more than any adjustment in PY introduced each year.



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by iGRF



So, consider the blue touch paper well and truly lit.


I don't have a 'current ride' - well not one I race and not one defined as a boat; but it's still sailing when there's wind and hand powered when there's not... a bit like a Trireme I guess, but just one oar, and freeriding for sh*ts and giggles rather than imperial invasion and looting being the primary objectives.

Any 'rides' that I would want to own have no local class racing - neither in my main place of residence over here in the EU, nor in the centre of the pitiful island I sadly inhabit to earn a crust during the week.

I guess I could compromise and worry about such things as what a spreadsheet says at the end of a good or bad sesh, but honestly I'm over all that for the time being.  

It looks likes Jim was right all along.  I now accept the future of club dinghy racing is handicap racing.... 

So dear Graeme, keeping taking the pills my friend, they won't cure you, but they will at least manage the symptoms for a while longer.




Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 9:59pm
Yardstick racing is based on timed results. 3 boats, in 3 different places, sailed by 3 different standard helms... Of course the yardstick won't be correct. 3 different guesses is all you have.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 10:13pm
I have found that I tend to end up in much the same position on PY whatever class I am sailing over a SERIES ... you really need several races in a range of conditions to make it work.  A one-off PY Race cannot really be taken too seriously.




-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 5:33am
Originally posted by davidyacht

I have found that I tend to end up in much the same position on PY whatever class I am sailing over a SERIES ... you really need several races in a range of conditions to make it work.  A one-off PY Race cannot really be taken too seriously.
I think that about sums it up, nicely put


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 5:42am
Donít ply golf so donít know how their system works but personal handicap seams to be the way to go. Everyone wins. The Championship sailors are put under more pressure and have to try harder, the novices are encouraged and donít get disheartened. The great thing is you get a gauge of how you are doing. My club runs a personal handicap Wednesday night series per suit race. It is good to see how you personal handicap changes each week. 

I think it would actually revive dinghy sailing because with the right mind set you could race older uncompetitive boats and not feel so penalised as you can see your relative performance improve. 


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 7:00am
Not at all fussed.

I smile at the benefits of the 2000 Handicap.

I laugh at the ludicrous 970 for the 300.

I wonder at how the Tasars Py can seem so harsh in the light and good in the breeze.

Bovvered - not at all!


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 8:02am
Originally posted by sargesail



I laugh at the ludicrous 970 for the 300.

Horses for courses.

The problem with any handicap system is a boat like this that does one "thing" especially well. On a club round the cans course in preferably marginal planing conditions your will not see where an RS300 went even off 970. 

On a triangle/sausage course they perform much more averagely due to the long run.

I would guess that most of the returns are club ones on medium sized lakes where they sail round the cans - hence the low PY number.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 10:25am
At a typical club level of racing and over a series of races held in a variety of conditions it has been my experience that the best sailors will win the series regardless of which boat they sail and on what handicap. Over the three years that I have sailed my H2 the handicap has changed quite a bit but over a series at a club level I am able to achieve the results that I think reflect my relative skill.

When I go off to these large handicap events over the Winter and race against 100+ boats its very clear that the handicap is not perfect relative to other similar boats but I still enjoy those events by setting myself a target for the day (i.e. finish in top third) and that makes it worthwhile.


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 10:37am
Originally posted by tink

Donít ply golf so donít know how their system works but personal handicap seams to be the way to go. Everyone wins. The Championship sailors are put under more pressure and have to try harder, the novices are encouraged and donít get disheartened. The great thing is you get a gauge of how you are doing. My club runs a personal handicap Wednesday night series per suit race. It is good to see how you personal handicap changes each week. 

I think it would actually revive dinghy sailing because with the right mind set you could race older uncompetitive boats and not feel so penalised as you can see your relative performance improve. 

My club does tweak the PYs up or down from the RYA suggested number based upon results for the class. In general this means that singlehanders with one sail get hit and that crewed boats and asymmetric get a boost compared to the RYA number as a general rule. 

There is also a series that is raced upon dynamic personal handicap whereby your previous results push your personal handicap up or down - I do not like this series as the conditions last week might have suited my boat and then this week the conditions are different and I have a huge mountain to climb to sail to my new harder handicap in conditions that are not suited.


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 11:13am
I'm not too bothered by it. The OK handicap isn't great but it's taken me three years to learn to sail it to somewhere around PY level at club level, and looking at how I do at National events it's clear I'm not anywhere near it's potential so I'm cool with that. Additionally there are so many other factors to consider. A big fast boat in a lot of smaller boats will have advantage in getting into clear air first and sailing through it faster - but a smaller, tighter course may disadvantage it compared to smaller nimbler boats. Like wise being a small, slow boat in among bigger fast boats is always a challenge until they get away from you. Some boats like reaches, other boats like beats and runs. Some boats hop in the plane early while other don't  etc etc
In my experience people who jump classes 'because of the PY' are often unable to face the uncomfortable truth that they are not as good as they think they are (plus many classes take a bit of time to learn how to go fast).
My advice if you are mainly going to sail on Handicap is to sail a boat that fits you physically and suits your style of sailing and just enjoy the race for what it is. If you're not winning perhaps it's you and not the boat that needs to change


-------------
OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 11:29am
Spot on Kaz.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 11:57am
Agree with Kaz - especially the bit about people moving classes!

One more frustration to add though - I do agree that having a fast boat can be good as you get away and into clean air, but on the downside when sailing on a lake there is often a big gust that comes through in the 5 or 10 minutes that the other slower boats are still racing and you get to sit by the finishing line watching someone who you were miles ahead of grinning as they boost over the line!


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Hitcher
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 12:11pm
On the other hand, if you do an evening series in a fast boat, you can finish before the breeze shuts down and everyone else sits there in no wind.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 12:29pm
True - but for this reason I rarely sail in the evenings which are better spent at the bar!

-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 1:16pm
Now it just so happens that I've been on the receiving end of some of the PY pain - when I've had a boat that I want to write about (and that can range from a Unit to a Mirror 14, a Hit to a 'classic' 5o5 (ie, small kite, no carbon or fancy foils) and in the end, you just have to 'suck it and see'. I would hope that in these more enlightened times that an equitable solution can be found that rewards the sailors who sail the best irrespective of their mounts. That said, I'm more than aware that there are boats that are sailing under a PY that is generous to the point that allows success to someone who hasn't sailed that well/bothered that much with boat preparation to win against a better sailor. Now allowing that would be as wrong as some turning a blind eye to some of the more lurid tales of PY abuses - so I hope that taking the RYA figures as a starting point is fair- but stressing that it is only a starting point. It would after all be just as easy to set a figure that creates that much talked off 'bandit' boat,
In this case I would hope that by setting a sensible PY as a starting point, with the understanding that the numbers will be reviewed (as all our numbers are) that we don't so much get things right, but avoid getting them too wrong. 
But back to the original post....a while back I was lucky enough to be RO for the Miracle Nationals (and will be so again next year I hope)  and had the pleasure of seeing a boat from the same bit of water as the 'Man of Kent' being very well sailed.. and we all recall those 'lurid tales' that I referred to just now when the Miracle and it's PY was the object of much of his angst, even though it was clear to me that this was a well prepared and well sailed boat.
Maybe when the V3 gets launched I ought to go and set the PY for that as well.....

D


-------------
Dougal H


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 1:47pm
Lots of good posts full of the right advice, it is a system that works albeit a bit crap and full of the issues we all know, so it can be accepted that a Boats 'yardstick' is obviously important or we couldn't function in the way lots of clubs do.

Lots of my 'issues' are already on record ad infinitum and in this instance, it wasn't a selfish post even though I do sail the boat in question, I bought it to learn to single hand trapeze and not have a great hulk to haul everywhere without the necessity for a crane or team of boat launchers, which is my alternative and discussed elsewhere.

My issue I guess is that I don't want some poor young kid put off the thing because there is no accepted method of him getting an accurate rating for the boat. There have been guesses, there aint enough of them to get the numbers and the point I've made all along, there should at least be a device that classes/builders/developers can plug into that at least spits out, not a PY because a PY has to be what it is a moving feast though God only knows why, but that's another discussion maybe. A what should we call it? Say PQ, Performance Quotient, given the length, breadth, sail area, crew weight, sailing devices (trap, swing out seat, kite, foils) a number that gives a new rider/sailor/helm an expectation of the actual crafts performance in capable hands. That way, at least folk like me and our young friend, who are trying to get to grips with a boat just because they like the boat, can see that the PQ is at the very least achievable, what happens to it after that in the yardstick system when lake laser muppets start using it and it gets slower and slower or the bandit pot hunters wield it as their chosen weapon for a couple of years so it has to get quicker, wouldn't matter.

Such a system isn't beyond the wit of man, nor would it require adoption by the RYA a clever crew, even from here like Peaky and Dan Holman with a bit of support from say JimC could put some sort of calculations in place to produce an algorithm that could be operated online using the Laser as the ground zero at 1000 as an obvious base setting that boats can be deemed faster or slower than. It would make to the casual entrant more sense and aspiring folk can make informed choices about the sort of craft they want. It may not make our little Farr much more attractive since it sits pretty much astride the Laser, a bit faster in strong wind and slower in light, but it would at least be accurate with some basis in hard fact that can't be denied.

How could we make it happen? Easy, we form the DPA, the Dinghy Performance Association or some similar class acronym and issue the number from that body.

(posted at the same time as dougal but acknowledge his points well made)

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 1:59pm
I think clubs can and do make this sort of adjustment without the need for complex algorithms. I seem to remember that the used to be Primary, Secondary and Experimental yardsticks; Primary being more set in stone than the others ... so if you have a fair idea of the boats performance against a Primary yardstick boat, it should be possible to come up with a number which puts your sailor in the middle of the pack.

Years ago we did a Chichester Snowflake series in a Salcombe Yawl, we sailed on the number that Salcombe use; CYC knocked a minute off our handicap number until we stopped winning; seemed fair enough.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:10pm
Clubs don't like to change from National Authority systems for lots of reasons, not least that the advice the very system gives is Rubbish.

We've been using it for three or four years now, and it finally gave us 'confidence' (system generated confidence that is)in two of our numbers, the Laser and the Contender, the two boats that win 90 percent of our races and what does it suggest? The Laser be even slower and the Contender even faster, to obviously try to counter act their relative performances against each other in their 'good' conditions. This would result in every other boat being prejudiced against, which is exactly what happens on a national scale.

Anecdotally we had a great period when I first got the Solution when my little group used to race pretty much scratch because the Laser and Solution were separated by just a point, now if we race pursuit style which we have to for lack of race box crew on wed afternoon, I now find myself racing alone a minute behind with very little chance of even getting into the mix. As luck would have it a few more Solutions are now around so i get a bit of class racing which is a bonus, but it doesn't change the annoyance that moving the Laser ever slower has caused a boat that inevitably has the fleet numbers anyway and if anything in hard fact with its' new systems and upgrades has become faster.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:14pm
And while you are at it iGRF, you could come up with a fairly easy rating on a 1 to 10, or a simple percentage factor of where that boat sits of a scale of sailability. That too shouldn't be beyond the clever minds - or even, just the practical minds that are out there.
If a boat is an unpleasant tippy ride downwind in breeze, or is difficult to recover -then mark it as such. On a small boat boat A might be a star, only to be a total disaster in a wind over tide situation off Hayling.
Sadly, that too won't happen......

D


-------------
Dougal H


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:51pm
Not sure how many Farr's there are in the UK but I assumed there were a decent number - I mean we got a PY for the H2 in its second year and it has been adjusted based upon results. I am sure that its a case of asking for a PY which is estimated in the first year and then confirmed in the second year but you do need to get people out racing them and then ensure that the results are submitted to the RYA by the club.

Your desire to help this lad is admirable, but it does come back to the point that Kaz made which is that if the lad has decided he does not want (for whatever reason) to sail one of the larger more established classes because the Farr is a better boat for him, his size, experience, where he sails, colour of the hull....whatever, then he has to accept that when you pick a smaller class it is probably going to have a sub-standard PY for a while so you better make sure you love the boat and love sailing it!


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by H2

but it does come back to the point that Kaz made which is that if the lad has decided he does not want (for whatever reason) to sail one of the larger more established classes because the Farr is a better boat for him, his size, experience, where he sails, colour of the hull....whatever, then he has to accept that when you pick a smaller class it is probably going to have a sub-standard PY for a while so you better make sure you love the boat and love sailing it!


Which in any other world would be classed as discriminatory, or anti competitive even. In fact I'm sure back in a fit of angry picque I did go as far as to get legal advice on, which was that I had a fair point, but not being a player manufacturer with an axe to grind or product to promote, why was I even considering the expense.

It remains however an area of very bad exposure for the powers that be.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 3:17pm
The fact that the wind, venue, tide, course and other boats competing skew the performance of any boat means that you will never have a perfect system to PY race in.

There are so many variables in sailing, boat designers in the same classes have adapted boats to try and exploit these factors in search of the perfect boat for a set venue and expected wind condition to win. This alone shows PY will never be truly accurate. 

If someone is handicap racing and prides their day purely on results, they will sooner or eventually be disappointed when they are beaten by a boat better suited to the conditions/course of the day. Or one that is just sailed better. 

With an open mind and drawing your own comparisons of the day/competition/boats around you, you can still enjoy handicap racing. It serves a purpose but in my mind should not be taken as the be all and end all. 


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 3:22pm
Re. Kid with Farr.
If all the grown ups didnít behave like kids with toys maybe the kids would stand a chance of acquiring a realistic perception of handicap PY racing.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Re. Kid with Farr.
If all the grown ups didnít behave like kids with toys maybe the kids would stand a chance of acquiring a realistic perception of handicap PY racing.

If the grown ups followed their hearts rather than their heads then perhaps smaller classes would have a fair PY Tongue


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 4:10pm
Really don't understand how it is discrimination for a class which has completed say 100 races in a season to have a less accurate yardstick than one which has sailed 2000. It's just numbers.

As for the Laser, well, it is 30ish years older than the Solution, heavier(?), Worse rig, less powerful, narrower and according to Solution owners the solution is an all round superior boat. But somehow no faster?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 4:56pm
Rupert. Stop bringing reason and logical arguments to the party LOLLOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 5:20pm
Solution is currently 1089 against Laser 1099, a fairly insignificant 0.9% difference. But a Laser sail measured by the same system as a Solution sail is probably less than Ĺ metre smaller, 5kg won't make a significant difference so the main differences are waterline length, Solution will be a fair bit shorter (427-390 overall but with a slightly more plumb bow the WL is probably about 20-25cm shorter than a Laser) and beam/sitting out power which is 38cm wider, a significant advantage in a breeze but, as it comes with more wetted area, actually a disadvantage in sub-planing conditions. At inland clubs we mostly race in sub planing conditions, and when it is breezy we probably only get planing for 20-30% of the race which all goes to make WL the biggest single factor IMO. I think the Solution does well to overcome a 10" disadvantage (yes, length really does matter LOL).

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 6:23pm
But everyone complains how bad and inefficient the Laser sail is, so size isn't all we should look at. Maybe hard sails on slow boats are just window dressing? After all, the Aero is short and is quicker with a soft sail.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 6:42pm
One important thing is that if a club tweaks the PY to reflect local conditions, the poor guy that does the changing has to wear a false beard to hide from the crowds of people telling him where he has gone wrong.

The RYA py may not be perfect, but a club can blame them instead of having the endless discussions each weekend


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 7:25pm
PY racing can never be much more than a bit of fun.

The Europe and Radial have pretty much the same PY. When the radials have enough power to get up to speed their extra half a metre of length makes it hard to hold them, but the minute they are over powered the Europe pulls away with ease.

Over the season it averages out I'm sure, but is any given race a fair reflection of how the helms sailed relative to each other? Probably not.

Really enjoyed racing them at the weekend though.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 7:25pm
It's sill better/fairer if the club does adjust though, a Musto can sail to it number on an open water W/L course but struggles badly on a gusty inland pond racing round the cans.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 8:58pm
After a while, we eventually get to know, what's what, some boats work inland, some work better on the sea. One thing the increased handicap advantage the Laser now has on the sea has put it back in the game on inland water, testament to the excellent design from all those years back that it still remains the tool it is these many years later.

But none of this is relevant to what I'm trying to suggest.

Waterline length is more important than sail type or size imv What makes the Laser is the 420 bit, not the 7.whatever the sail is. The sail bit is effectively varied by the wind strenght anyway. That in turn is varied by the ratio of the body weight and the beam in righting moment againts the sail size. Waterline length however makes the difference upwind and it also makes the difference in planing in waves of a certain length, predominant in the English Channel.

So that formula, that combines the various relationships between waterline length, crew weight, sail size and righting moment will always be the same, so should be the initial recipe for any decision regarding performance. What then happens due to helm input can and perhaps should be quantified by data, but for the sake of logic and understanding should be secondary to the actual physical facts.

So the 'handicap' should always be a two part calculation, the boats potential, over the data provided by it's regional and conditional useage. Rather than what we have at the moment, data driven by inland water over coastal and using the lame suggestion that clubs should bear the burden of varying the system to suit their water.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 9:43pm
WL also makes a big difference offwind if you can't get planing as it sets an upper limit on displacement speed.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2

but it does come back to the point that Kaz made which is that if the lad has decided he does not want (for whatever reason) to sail one of the larger more established classes because the Farr is a better boat for him, his size, experience, where he sails, colour of the hull....whatever, then he has to accept that when you pick a smaller class it is probably going to have a sub-standard PY for a while so you better make sure you love the boat and love sailing it!


Which in any other world would be classed as discriminatory, or anti competitive even. In fact I'm sure back in a fit of angry picque I did go as far as to get legal advice on, which was that I had a fair point, but not being a player manufacturer with an axe to grind or product to promote, why was I even considering the expense.

It remains however an area of very bad exposure for the powers that be.

Actually, many other sports are far more subjective or "anti competitive" in the way they assess and handicap gear and players. Look at the "success handicaps" in motor racing, where top cars will be loaded up with lead to slow them down in some very successful big-budget categories. In the BTCC, since 2015 the leading car has had to go into each day's racing with 75kg of ballast, to slow it down.  Le Mans GTE cars have similar rules.  Or check out horse race handicapping, or local bicycle racing where a subjective decision can move you up or down a grade. Then there are events like the Tour de France where the organisers can shape the entire course to suit the home-grown heroes, or salary caps in other sports.

The entire system of grading in sport can be seen as anti-competitive, because normally the guys who finish last in the top grade are vastly better players than the guys who finish first in the bottom grade, and yet the rules allow the latter to win more than the former. 

I tend to think that a lawsuit based on PY would have been laughed out of court since it appears that the issue is that certain individuals, some of them quite inexperienced and inexpert, have a subjective opinion that does not agree with the maths involved. 

The PY lawsuit with legs would be the one where the PY volunteers launch defamation cases against some of their critics.


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by tink

Donít ply golf so donít know how their system works but personal handicap seams to be the way to go. Everyone wins. The Championship sailors are put under more pressure and have to try harder, the novices are encouraged and donít get disheartened. The great thing is you get a gauge of how you are doing. My club runs a personal handicap Wednesday night series per suit race. It is good to see how you personal handicap changes each week. 

I think it would actually revive dinghy sailing because with the right mind set you could race older uncompetitive boats and not feel so penalised as you can see your relative performance improve. 

The champion sailors don't often win because they can't realistically get much better. Day in, day out they tend to sail at 99.XXXX%.  So what happens is that every time they race, they know that their personal handicap result is down to whether the guys who sail at 30-80% happen to sail at 31-81% that day, or whether it's a day when the wind favours the slower sailors for various reasons.  The champion's results are therefore not down to what they do, but what the other sailors do, which makes the handicap result meaningless.  The champion may therefore just as well go out and train rather than race.

The person with the older uncompetitive boat also finds that if they sail it perfectly, they can be wopped on personal handicap by someone with a brand new rocketship of the same class, who finishes 10 minutes back instead of their normal 15 minutes back. Again, the issue is that the top sailors tend to be consistently good and cannot easily improve, whereas slow sailors tend to be inconsistent and can improve and therefore the result is out of the top sailors' hands.

I'm race officer for a club with an Olympic silver medallist, who just defended his world title. On both PY and personal handicap, he gets hammered week after week by sailors who can't even enter a championship with a realistic hope of getting around the course inside the time limit. The same applies to the two sailors in the club who got third in their world titles this year. That's dealing with a situation where the craft are of radically different design to the rest of the fleet, but it still shows that even being on the world's podium is not enough to allow you to win if the handicaps are tough enough.

Personal handicapping, including personal handicapping pursuits, are great for the beginners and slower sailors, but they are problematic for top sailors. That's fine since top sailors shouldn't (IMHO) be aiming to win club races, but it's something to consider.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 10:34pm
Nobody cares, or should be even bothered what 'top sailors' think, this is about trying to stem the flow,, stop the rot, bring more folk into the sport than are leaving it. If all there is, is handicap racing, then it has to be improved, made less irritating, irrational, illogical. Top sailors don't drive club racing, club racing is where folk at the beginning or the end of their careers end up and the game should be that the end guys should encourage the new young guys, not make it stupidly impossible just because they;ve become bad losers.

So Henry in his new Farr 3.7 should be encouraged, not discouraged, the old Fart hasbeen in his 3.7 can make whatever decision he wants, it's not about him either.

What it's about, is keeping the sport interesting and accessible to a generation that want it now and want it to be easy and more understandable.

Because they're snowflakes.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 3:10am
Originally posted by iGRF

Nobody cares, or should be even bothered what 'top sailors' think, this is about trying to stem the flow,, stop the rot, bring more folk into the sport than are leaving it. If all there is, is handicap racing, then it has to be improved, made less irritating, irrational, illogical. Top sailors don't drive club racing, club racing is where folk at the beginning or the end of their careers end up and the game should be that the end guys should encourage the new young guys, not make it stupidly impossible just because they;ve become bad losers.

So Henry in his new Farr 3.7 should be encouraged, not discouraged, the old Fart hasbeen in his 3.7 can make whatever decision he wants, it's not about him either.

What it's about, is keeping the sport interesting and accessible to a generation that want it now and want it to be easy and more understandable.

Because they're snowflakes.

I didn't say that anyone should be really bothered what the top sailors think. I know they don't drive club racing. I said IMHO they shouldn't normally worry about club racing.

I was just saying that the experience in coming from a scene where personal handicap is endemic is that many of them don't find it challenging.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 6:12am
A rating where handicap is combined with yardstick looks to me like combining two flawed ideas and hoping to get a perfect answer from it. Love the concept, but would expect less accuracy than we have now.

I would like to see published figures for open sea, estuary, lake and river, which whilst still inaccurate would be better than poor old Bob at a single club taking all the flack.

As for boat length, if waterline length is all, why aren't more boats longer? The International Canoe is the longest S/H, I guess, in widespread use, and isn't a Laser equivalent. A lightweight 18' singlehander with a modest sail area should carry a variety of weight well, and say 6m of sail handleable by all, and no disadvantage as waterline length is king.

Yet we see the Aero doing well, shorter and faster than the current most popular boat.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 7:56am
I do agree with Rupert that combining handicap and yardstick is a bad idea. I like the idea of different PYs for differnt stretches of water, but this is in essence what my club does anyway by tweaking the RYA PYs because we sail on a lake so its harder to sail a RS200 to handicap than a Solo for example.

On the Aero - sorry but I do think that the handicap is way wrong on that one. No idea if its because of GRFs conspiracy theory of the dark forces favouring the big manufacturers or because its a boat that is sailed by many and the result is a PY that is very kind to the good guys that then travel to events!?!


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 8:13am
Originally posted by Rupert

But everyone complains how bad and inefficient the Laser sail is, so size isn't all we should look at. Maybe hard sails on slow boats are just window dressing? After all, the Aero is short and is quicker with a soft sail.

The Mk2 sail is much better than the old sail Rupert, it has been a step change for people and not just the 'new sail' boost (in my experience).

As for the Aero 7 it is significantly lighter and with a full carbon rig. Comparing it to the new Laser Arc or C7 rigs would be a better comparison IMO.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 8:17am
With regard the use of fully batterned mains on singlehanders - I do agree that these are a fad and personally I believe that a sail with a top battern or two that are full with the rest of the sail soft is the best compromise, especially for lighter winds and shifty lakes!

-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 8:59am
Yes, that's exactly what the Blaze discovered back in the day, the 'Blaze X' is a nice sail, the original FB Blaze rig was, by all accounts, a monster in any breeze.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 10:05am
In the H2 the top battens are hard and the lower three are very soft, especially at the luff which helps a lot with making it easier to handle but my personal preference would have been for the lower part of the sail to be soft but then it was not my call!!

-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 10:08am
Back to GRFs OP though - its probably not the answer that you want to hear but I do believe that the only way to get the PY system (as imperfect as it is) to work is to just get enough people out racing in the boat in order to get the data together to demonstrate what the PY should be. Yes that is hard work and yes that might put some people off but to me it was a challenge I have enjoyed trying to crack with the H2 in part because the alternative of sailing an Aero just made me want to give up on the sport.

-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 10:23am
It's not the system per se that is in question, it's the route into the system. There can never be a 'prefect' system and as it is if used the way it's designed to be it's probably as good as you''ll get. But that doesn't help in cases where the clubs don't or won't issue their own variations to the system, nor does it give any recourse to what could be a more factual definition of a given boats performance according to measurement and weight.

What I'm suggesting is not to alter anything that currently is in place, just another reference or resource that a club could simply dial into. Enter the vessels length, width, sail size, designated crew weight and other devices (trapeze, swing seats, kite, foils) then it spits out a number. That number would always be constant unless any of the measurements change. The number would be scaled with the Laser full rig stats set as the base line.

We can do this now, because we have computers, the internet, it can be transparent.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 11:11am
All,
whilst this is just what the forum needed, an interesting topic that allows everybody to 'pile in' can we all be careful about 'naming names' of those who are not just innocent but have no idea that they are being discussed on an open platform.....

D


-------------
Dougal H


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 11:31am
".....in part because the alternative of sailing an Aero just made me want to give up on the sport"

That is rather harsh.  The Aero is a great boat even if not for you .. or me for that matter although I have enjoyed it on a number of occasions and hope to again if offered the chance in the future.  I doubt it was intended to monopolise all segments of the future market and replace all other alternatives !

'Dissing' this class or that class in passing whether intentionally or not just distracts from the subject in play and does tend to drive a significant number away from these sort of discussions.   They might 'lurk' for a while but then they may well find better things to do with their time after a while as well.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 11:55am
I am not dissing the Aero - it is a very popular boat that is sailed by many and clearly doing very well as I mentioned. Its just not for me and if it was the only product available then I would not participate, but fortunately for me it is not!

Besides Cirrus - your a man who clearly enjoys having his own opinion :-)


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

One important thing is that if a club tweaks the PY to reflect local conditions, the poor guy that does the changing has to wear a false beard to hide from the crowds of people telling him where he has gone wrong.

The RYA py may not be perfect, but a club can blame them instead of having the endless discussions each weekend

If the RYA prescribed to the clubs when to change the handicaps within their own data false beard sales would decline.

of course it would take consensus amongst each clubs sail coms to use such a system, so perhaps false beard sales would increase?


-------------
https://www.facebook.com/OJSPhoto" rel="nofollow - OJSPhotography
https://www.youtube.com/ojsphotography/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 868
Marconi SC


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 1:26pm
So at our club I guess that I am the guy who should go buy the beard as I chair the sailing committee which also tweaks the PYs. Interestingly we have experienced very few comments or negative feedback because we have been transparent and everyone can see the data we used to tweak the PYs. Ultimately changing the PYs has not resulted in massive differences in the outcome of who wins over a series but it has made the results much closer and more fun in my view.

-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 2:08pm
And thatís the point, make the racing closer, make it more competitive / fun. Be transparent.

Most clubs wonít change without a mandate from the governing body though as itís seen as too risky to upset the racing membership / cliques.

People tend to get very defensive about change to their py, seeing it as slight on themselves or attributing it to low statistical certainty and poor data, forgetting that the big data maybe just as bad for that particular club/class as the local small data. After all its a pastime and itís just meant to make it more fun, and who wants minutes separating results when you can get it down to seconds and make the win feel even more of an achievement.

-------------
https://www.facebook.com/OJSPhoto" rel="nofollow - OJSPhotography
https://www.youtube.com/ojsphotography/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 868
Marconi SC


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 2:17pm
Yup, and you can get a primary yardstick with as few as 100 races returned, that would be easy to achieve with just a couple of keen boats (at L&LSC even one boat sailing three Sundays a month would log up 100 races if they sailed all year round, might try it in the Spice next year, see if I can get a PN I can sail to Wink ).

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by H2

With regard the use of fully batterned mains on singlehanders - I do agree that these are a fad and personally I believe that a sail with a top battern or two that are full with the rest of the sail soft is the best compromise, especially for lighter winds and shifty lakes!

So the Solo is a fad unsuited to lake racing? Hmmm.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 2:59pm
Besides Cirrus - your a man who clearly enjoys having his own opinion :-)

Something about about kettle and pot comes to mind .. now what was it  ?   ;-)   But the real irony is that you now very neatly prove the point raised even in replying.   As will I  ... so  'Bye' should suffice.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by H2

With regard the use of fully batterned mains on singlehanders - I do agree that these are a fad and personally I believe that a sail with a top battern or two that are full with the rest of the sail soft is the best compromise, especially for lighter winds and shifty lakes!

So the Solo is a fad unsuited to lake racing? Hmmm.

Umm, that is not what I said. I do think the Solo would be nicer to sail with the lower part of the sail soft rather than fully battened though. Just a personal opinion. Clearly the Solo has done amazingly well and lots of people sail them so they can sail against all the others that sail them...but as mentioned on other posts that does not mean its a boat without fault!


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 4:30pm
Have you actually sailed one?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 4:53pm
Fully battened or not is a matter of taste. I'm not a fan, JimC has stated in the past that he can't see why anyone would use anything else, or words to that effect. Maybe the Solo would have sold thousands more with a soft sail, maybe it would have bombed. Impossible to know.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by H2

With regard the use of fully batterned mains on singlehanders - I do agree that these are a fad and personally I believe that a sail with a top battern or two that are full with the rest of the sail soft is the best compromise, especially for lighter winds and shifty lakes!

So the Solo is a fad unsuited to lake racing? Hmmm.

Umm, that is not what I said. I do think the Solo would be nicer to sail with the lower part of the sail soft rather than fully battened though. Just a personal opinion. Clearly the Solo has done amazingly well and lots of people sail them so they can sail against all the others that sail them...but as mentioned on other posts that does not mean its a boat without fault!

I find the Solo fully battened sail to be surprisingly responsive in the light and fluky stuff ... the battens never stick through the tack and the front of the sail is easy to read; not as much of a PIA as a soft sail with a sticking top batten.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 5:29pm
I have a FB main on the Spice, works fine but I'd still prefer semi-soft, owned a 'nova for a season but hardly sailed it as I really didn't get on with the rig, hard to read and feel. FB should be more efficient than semi but they don't suit me. OTOH I sailed Raceboards with FB sails for years and absolutely loved them.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


I find the Solo fully battened sail to be surprisingly responsive in the light and fluky stuff ... the battens never stick through the tack and the front of the sail is easy to read; not as much of a PIA as a soft sail with a sticking top batten.

Me too.
There is much, much more to a good rig than whether it is fully battened or not. No one would ever claim the Topper skiff rigs were good, but the Solo betrays the lie that they are necessarily hard to read and a pain to tack.


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 7:04pm
There is little faster than a Solo in 2 knots when multiple shifts (!) require lots of tacks!


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Oct 19 at 7:19pm
I'll take a British Moth or Firefly, but yes, it's pretty good.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 9:42am
Originally posted by A2Z


There is much, much more to a good rig than whether it is fully battened or not. No one would ever claim the Topper skiff rigs were good, but the Solo betrays the lie that they are necessarily hard to read and a pain to tack.

Yes, definitely but FB has certain characteristics that are 'built in' like the inability to feather the sail and switch off the power. 

I know the Spice rig is only adequate, The square top ISO main I use is better but my Demon Design VG5 Raceboard sail is utterly wonderful so I know it can be done.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 9:46am
I donít know.  The Solo sail is much more controllable than a Laser sail, across the whole wind range. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

FB has certain characteristics that are 'built in' like the inability to feather the sail and switch off the power.

Simply not true.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

FB has certain characteristics that are 'built in' like the inability to feather the sail and switch off the power.

Simply not true.


If you are lying to, they will power up with windshifts more than a soft sail does. I find the soft front edge of a Europe sail, say, much easier to read than a fully battened one, specially if made from stiff mylar.

This is one aspect of a sail. The fully battened rig has many advantages, too.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 3:41pm
The joy of the Solo sail is that market forces, i.e. completion between North, HD, P&B and Hyde and development over 70 years, has created a durable product and once you have set up the mast as per the tuning guides, simple adjustments of the outhaul/inhaul, kicker and Cunningham give you control across the wind range.  Something that OEM classes struggle to do ... because there is insufficient margin to hit price points.

-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

The joy of the Solo sail is that market forces, i.e. completion between North, HD, P&B and Hyde and development over 70 years, has created a durable product and once you have set up the mast as per the tuning guides, simple adjustments of the outhaul/inhaul, kicker and Cunningham give you control across the wind range. †Something that OEM classes struggle to do ... because there is insufficient margin to hit price points.


And of course Jon at Edge!


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

The joy of the Solo sail is that market forces, i.e. completion between North, HD, P&B and Hyde and development over 70 years, has created a durable product and once you have set up the mast as per the tuning guides, simple adjustments of the outhaul/inhaul, kicker and Cunningham give you control across the wind range.  Something that OEM classes struggle to do ... because there is insufficient margin to hit price points.

At the expense of a complex combination of masts and sails that make buying a second hand boat ...... complex. I would love you enlighten me


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 5:30pm
D+ has been derigeur for quite a few years and being alloy not overly expensive.  North, HD, Hyde, P&B and Edge can be bought on seasonal offers and hold competitive shape for several seasons.  So amortised over two or three years the costs are not silly.

-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 5:48pm
Miss having Jon at Edge in Coventry. Itís always useful to have a sail makers in the same city. 



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

D+ has been derigeur for quite a few years and being alloy not overly expensive.  North, HD, Hyde, P&B and Edge can be bought on seasonal offers and hold competitive shape for several seasons.  So amortised over two or three years the costs are not silly.

Probably cheaper in the long run than a Laser rig to stay competitive.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 5:39am
By my reckoning you can get a good ten year old laser for about 2k , similar Solo 4k+ so thatís just shy of 4 laser sails difference. In that time youíre likely to replace the Solo sail at least once. 

A Laser Master and coach once told me he was replacing his sail for every major event, so not cheap to run.

Not really making any point or conclusions they are Apples and Pears in terms of boats, just the sort of thing I like to think about. 

A new Solo is about 1.5k more than an Aero and 2.5k more than. Laser which with the Solo residuals make it a very good investment. Would probably be less than £500 a year, ignoring sails. 

On the other hand a ten year old Solution is only 3k


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 9:31am
Mark Bethwaite, FD Olympian and world champ in Solings and J/24s in their pomp, has used the same sail to win three world Masters titles - and Mark is not short of a dollar so can use whatever he wants.

Brett Bayer, pro Laser coach and Mark's rival for the title of most successful Laser Masters sailor of all time, gets 30 days of top-level sailing out of each sail. That's at least 5 top-level championship regattas.

Those guys have won more Laser Masters worlds than anyone, so they can't be wrong with their estimate of sail ageing.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 10:24am
I bet Mark doesn't leave his sail unattached at the leach and flapping between races like proper Laser Sailors do though...


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 5:44pm
Important........important to what?

Important to it's second hand value? Probably yes. I would guess a bandit on a particular type of water would be more desirable, particularly with some older folk who want to hang on to some of the glory.

Important to a boats corrected time? There are certainly some massive bandits over a series on our piece of water. Conversely there are some slower boats, particularly among the junior classes that are never going to do well, their handicaps are wrong by a large margin on the south coast with a couple of knots tide and occasional big waves. Mind you that does ensure the young upstarts don't get any of the silverware which should rightly go to the adults. According to some calculation I did a few years ago, comparing average results for classes in different types of venue, the slower boats in some cases were out by a hundred + points.


Important to the sport generally? Yes, I think so. After the trials of a week at work, family and general life pressures most sailors REALLY look forward to a Sunday on the water racing. Some effort to make the PY system as accurate as possible is incredibly important otherwise the whole exercise becomes nothing more than a weird Escheresque animation. Maintaining power boats, learning OOD skills, laying the course, running the club, dragging folk out of bed to do their duties just so that some ever aging folk in boats can sail around in meaningless circles shouting rule numbers at each other. Meanwhile  some knobhead (not refering to anyone in particular) on the com watches from the balcony saying ".....of course, the only way to get a fair race is in class racing", using that argument to rationalise their complete inability to use their brains, suppress their fear and try something different........IMO clubs and the RYA should put as much effort into the quality of grassroots Sunday handicap sailing as is possible. I can't overstate this.

As Rupert and others have said (including myself in the past) Different published PY's for different waters, 4 or 5 categories maybe? It would certainly improve the current situation. Still not perfect because of different weather conditions but over a decent series fairer............Single/a few race handicap series are always going to be more of a lottery no matter how you juggle the figures.

A question to those in the know: How much does the RYA spend on PY improvements? How important is it to them? ........or are they also watching from the balcony?


Edited. punctuation and corrected "exorcised". Mind you, might have been a Freudian slip.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 6:23pm
Thank you Sussex lad for a great answer and bringing the thread back on topic.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 7:07pm
Interesting Sussex Lad, I really like the idea of different categories of PY

RYA participation says there are 200k+ people doing  small boat racing. If we all put the cost of a pint you would have more than enough to write an awesome bit of user friendly race officer software,
Sail numbers could be used to reference age, development of boat,
Weather conditions could be logged plus type of venue 
And I am sure many other factors 


But obviously we shouldnít need to the RYA should be on the case 


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 7:38pm
It should be possible to separate the individual club's returns into small lake/river, large lake/estury and open sea. The PY committee already do this on a club by club basis with their suggested corrections. If they gave three separate numbers it would prevent the 'fickle finger of blame' from resting on the individuals at the club. It may not actually be quite as accurate as the present system* but it would be more accurate for the clubs who don't apply a correction at all.

*I would revert to a 2-3 digit number, 1% accuracy is more than enough IMHO 


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 7:46pm
Excluding special conditions where the wind stopped before the race ended or a storm came through before the end- if the corrected times of all boats are within 2-3 minutes then the PY is about right. The small variation represents the difference in the sailors.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 7:58pm
I'd say within 6 mins/hour, our pretty decent Solo and Laser fleets regularly have a 4 minute spread in a 40 min race and it's by no means the same two people front and back of the fleet.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 8:14pm
But surely that confirms the variation relates to crew skill, luck and someone having a good day?

Rather than a duff PY that needs changing?


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 8:39pm
The idea of looking at the range is something quite interesting and I looked at my results, something nice to note alongside conditions and look for improvement. I looked at some typical results and to me they show for your average same venue club sailing the system seams to work. Deeper analysis would probably reveal the bandit boat for a particular wind. 

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

But surely that confirms the variation relates to crew skill, luck and someone having a good day? 

Rather than a duff PY that needs changing?
 


There are is too much evidence, anecdotal, circumstantial and factual to accept that the current list works for all types of water. 

Just needs the folk that calculate the list to divide the returns into the respective water types before they crunch the numbers.......OK, they'd have to do 4 or five lots of calcs but hey ho. And yes it still wouldn't be anywhere near perfect as some factors are very difficult to accommodate but, very importantly, over a series it would be much better. It would be an evolutionary next logical step. 

Same question again because I'm sure some on here know the answer:  How much is spent on improving the PY? How important is improving the current system to the RYA.


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by tink

The idea of looking at the range is something quite interesting and I looked at my results, something nice to note alongside conditions and look for improvement. I looked at some typical results and to me they show for your average same venue club sailing the system seams to work. Deeper analysis would probably reveal the bandit boat for a particular wind.†



There's no doubt that it works better in some waters, disastrously in others.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

But surely that confirms the variation relates to crew skill, luck and someone having a good day?

Rather than a duff PY that needs changing?

Yes, that was my point. IMHO there is no benefit in the 0.1% resolution (relative to the 'scratch' handicap) of the present system and the 1% resolution of a 'scratch' = 100 system of my youth was completely adequate.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Same question again because I'm sure some on here know the answer:† How much is spent on improving the PY? How important is improving the current system to the RYA.


I don't know the answer, I did have a spirited attempt at finding out a bit more, but you can be sure whatever budget is allocated, it will be a fraction of what they spend on masseurs, psychobabblists, choking ping pong players et al on squad training.

There were promises three years ago that some big announcement was going to happen, it didn't and the furore back then spluttered and died out, classes, divide and rule, it always works.

The solution is a single self interested class of those of us that really would like to see handicap racing better served. If such a body were to gain momentum and perhaps challenge their 'authority' you can bet your life action would happen.

But all the time there's no noise, and apathy reigns, they're stock answer is if your not happy with the yardstick, change them youselves, which is all very well but as you can see fromthat very small sample on the other thread isn't likely to happen any time soon.



-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 19 at 10:10pm
The sad fact is that, apart from a few like you and my dad*, most are happy to go with the flow Cry

* my dad built an electro-mechanical timer/start sequence computer for our club back in the '70s. It ran a bomber clock and a load of multi-step GPO telephone relays and resolved to 1/10th of a minute (i.e. 6 seconds) in the days when corrected times were calculated from elapsed whole minutes with the remaining seconds just added on. Many of the club stalwarts decided to was not accurate enough and would not use it.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 7:08am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by tink

The idea of looking at the range is something quite interesting and I looked at my results, something nice to note alongside conditions and look for improvement. I looked at some typical results and to me they show for your average same venue club sailing the system seams to work. Deeper analysis would probably reveal the bandit boat for a particular wind. 


There's no doubt that it works better in some waters, disastrously in others.

In any system there will be outriders of data but I looked at results from the Ďpremier leagueí clubs and national mixed fleets events there is a even spread of classes with. I havenít found any results where say 50% of the top 10% are the same class. Clearly some boats will be better suited to certain conditions but  that goes back birth of sailing with local one design classes. When ever this forum is asked about dinghy choice the top answer is always- what do they sail at you club?

Put it another way, is there any other sport where male, female, young, old, fit, unfit, individual, pairs, mixed pairs, parent and child, novices, Olympians, relatively rich, relatively poor etc etc can all compete together 


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 10:53am
Originally posted by tink

 


In any system there will be outriders of data but I looked at results from the Ďpremier leagueí clubs and national mixed fleets events there is a even spread of classes with. I havenít found any results where say 50% of the top 10% are the same class. Clearly some boats will be better suited to certain conditions but  that goes back birth of sailing with local one design classes. When ever this forum is asked about dinghy choice the top answer is always- what do they sail at you club?

Put it another way, is there any other sport where male, female, young, old, fit, unfit, individual, pairs, mixed pairs, parent and child, novices, Olympians, relatively rich, relatively poor etc etc can all compete together 


With all due respect  to the contributors here that think the system works reasonably well.

........You declare that the system seems reasonably OK.....you must be inland sailors, just a guess. This demonstrates one of causes of the problem imo. I suspect there are more returns from inland sailing clubs which in turn gives the numbers a heavy bias towards non-tidal clubs. It works reasonably well for you and you assume it must be OK for everyone else.

Again, with all due respect. You don't seem to understand the nuanced affect of tide on different types of boat. You all know that sailing against the tide is not helpful and that seeking out slower tide is helpful but beyond that you seem to have given it no thought, and why should you? Most of you don't have to deal with it in handicap races. The impact of tide on the various classes (speed related) is very large indeed, fact. 

Tink, It makes a mockery of the word "Compete" for many classes when sailing in tide.

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Same question again because I'm sure some on here know the answer:  How much is spent on improving the PY? How important is improving the current system to the RYA.
 

I don't know the answer, I did have a spirited attempt at finding out a bit more, but you can be sure whatever budget is allocated, it will be a fraction of what they spend on masseurs, psychobabblists, choking ping pong players et al on squad training. 


I suspect you are right, all credit for trying to find out though. I doubt the RYA spend much on developing it either, maybe some costs in stationary. Happy with the status quo probably. 

Last I heard the PY committee was staffed by volunteers, I have no wish to offend them as the are probably following a brief and in that respect doing a first class job. Should any of them read this, Thank you for your work.






Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 4:27pm
Still donít see the the problem. Yes most returns are from pond therefore most ponds sailors are reasonably ok with the system . So the majority of sailors are ok with this system . As already mentioned at lot big coastal clubs that have to deal with tides already alter their  pys. So perhaps coastal  clubs that have trouble with pys should look at these clubs and think about using these pys as a starting point . 



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 4:37pm
That's where we differ, I have no time for anyone that works on that PYAG.

Hiding behind the "I'm a volunteer you can't have a go at me flag' is why we are where we are.
They perpetuate the agony.

They'd be better to resign, what they do is not fit for purpose and neither is the system.

That may be harsh, they may work hard, but for what?

To prop the RYA up in its total arrogant imcompetence.

If they were doing a good job they wouldn't have to hide in their smoke filled room, if the system were even half decent, they could be transparent and I for one would applaud their efforts, as it is I haven't even a clue who any of them are.

I know of and have met Bas Edmonds, a decent enough type, but sorry comes under the heading jobsworth. No boat rocking likely to happen from that quarter. Gives a great presentation does his bit to educate and try and make the system work but either refuses to accept, or still believes the system as it stands is just fine, when we all know it aint.

Root and branch top down overhaul is needed.

But they'll never listen.

Divide and rule is their ethos.




-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by zeon

Still donít see the the problem. Yes most returns are from pond therefore most ponds sailors are reasonably ok with the system . So the majority of sailors are ok with this system . As already mentioned at lot big coastal clubs that have to deal with tides already alter their  pys. So perhaps coastal  clubs that have trouble with pys should look at these clubs and think about using these pys as a starting point . 



I take it you sail on a pond and are happy with the current system Zeon?

Clubs being unwilling to deviate from the published numbers is a topic that has been discussed to death elsewhere. I'ts an old topic and we all know what the score is. The very few coastal clubs that are brave enough to do it crunch their numbers from their own insufficient data or maybe they construct some deviously fiendish formula and hope the new members waiting list is enough to insure against the inevitable fallout......The logical solution, i.e. the solution that avoids club disputes and is produced from better data is to persuade  the PY folk to have a go.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 5:35pm
Sussex Lad ... please can you outline what aspect of sea sailing skews the PY system?  I accept that tidal gates or changing tides can skew the results, but surely racing on the open sea in a constant tide is akin to the conveyor that forms the basis of the Lee bow discussion?

I sail on a tidal estuary and I really find it hard to fault the PY system.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by tink

 


In any system there will be outriders of data but I looked at results from the Ďpremier leagueí clubs and national mixed fleets events there is a even spread of classes with. I havenít found any results where say 50% of the top 10% are the same class. Clearly some boats will be better suited to certain conditions but  that goes back birth of sailing with local one design classes. When ever this forum is asked about dinghy choice the top answer is always- what do they sail at you club?

Put it another way, is there any other sport where male, female, young, old, fit, unfit, individual, pairs, mixed pairs, parent and child, novices, Olympians, relatively rich, relatively poor etc etc can all compete together 


With all due respect  to the contributors here that think the system works reasonably well.

........You declare that the system seems reasonably OK.....you must be pond sailors, just a guess. This demonstrates one of causes of the problem imo. I suspect there are more returns from pond sailing clubs which in turn gives the numbers a heavy bias towards non-tidal clubs. It works reasonably well for you and you assume it must be OK for everyone else.

Again, with all due respect. You don't seem to understand the nuanced affect of tide on different types of boat. You all know that sailing against the tide is not helpful and that seeking out slower tide is helpful but beyond that you seem to have given it no thought, and why should you? Most of you don't have to deal with it in handicap races. The impact of tide on the various classes (speed related) is very large indeed, fact. 

Tink, It makes a mockery of the word "Compete" for many classes when sailing in tide.

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Same question again because I'm sure some on here know the answer:  How much is spent on improving the PY? How important is improving the current system to the RYA.
 

I don't know the answer, I did have a spirited attempt at finding out a bit more, but you can be sure whatever budget is allocated, it will be a fraction of what they spend on masseurs, psychobabblists, choking ping pong players et al on squad training. 


I suspect you are right, all credit for trying to find out though. I doubt the RYA spend much on developing it either, maybe some costs in stationary. Happy with the status quo probably. 

Last I heard the PY committee was staffed by volunteers, I have no wish to offend them as the are probably following a brief and in that respect doing a first class job. Should any of them read this, Thank you for your work.




Donít think there any sailing clubs on ponds


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 6:08pm
For "ponds" read not salty and the water level doesnt vary hugely twice ( or more!) a day


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by tink

Donít think there any sailing clubs on ponds

Since it's nearly panto season "Oh yes there are"

Frensham Pond Sailing Club for starters  https://www.sailfrensham.org.uk" rel="nofollow">https://www.sailfrensham.org.uk LOL


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com