Print Page | Close Window

Dare I even discuss a new class?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13416
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 1:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Dare I even discuss a new class?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Dare I even discuss a new class?
Date Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 8:20pm
I'm currently in a quandry, either to cave in in my mind and buy a Contender, a boat that although excellent in its day, I find rather too heavy and in all probability I'm too light and short for it anyway. Our club has two fleets now, it's either the Lasers or the Contenders that are populated by our most competitive sailors and this season I've really struggled to the point a couple of times I just can't be asked to pit the Farr 3.7 against them and have been losing my mojo.

Don't get me wrong it's a lovely boat, really nice to sail, and has served me well these past two years in learning the ins and outs of single hand trapezing, but so very seldom do I even manage to beat Lasers over the water, never mind on handicap.

So the mind often dwells on what would be an ideal for my circumstances, which are obviously long on years and short on time left with faculties, so I contacted Dan Holman, who drew up the dreaded V2 for me (and advised against it)to see if he'd be interested in another go, this time with a whole bunch more experience than last time and a whole different requirement.

I wondered about something that would be at home inland or on the sea, that could be set up to trap, or have optional rack/seats, that you didn't have to kneel going downwind, that can run by the lee, that can be depowered on the fly, that would be stable at rest with noone on board, that had retracting foils without the requirement for flushing strips, and that could be designed in such a way that a self build was an option, and that could be built to weigh less than 50 kgs all up and beat Lasers at all points of sailing in light winds.

Why am I doing this online? I guess to find out if there is any interest in such a craft given that the one thing I do miss is having something or someone of similar speed to race against and am slowly coming to the class view (we have four solutions now down the lake).

Dan talks of around twenty grand for a custom build, but then all you have is one. So I wondered if having got the custom job going wether it could also have home build plans as an option and anyone esle might be persuaded, first step would obviously be renders which do cost time and money.

Anyway Dinghy development is the section title, lets bat it about at least, chuck some cold water, maybe this time I'll listen.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 8:41pm
Its an awful lot easier to build a boat than start a class. I offered my PlusPlus up as a new class, with rules worked out, drawings (but not full building plans) available, all the rest of it. There was lots of talk, but zero action. I think unless you are an established builder you really need a reasonable number of people who will all build their boats at the same time to give a nucleus.

Of course if you're a billionaire and wish to start or even revive a class you spend loads of cash, maybe build boats for loan, get pro sailors in, all the rest of it, and maybe call it the Whatever Sailor's league. Maybe make it multi billionaire?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 8:53pm
What happens if you stretch the Farr 3.7 concept to be more like 4.3, giving the extra waterline length to take on the Laser in the light stuff, but with the boxier hull shape both for stability and to give the high wind planing surface. You'd still lose out to the Laser in a real drift simply on wetted surface, but once hull length kicks in, with a far more efficient rig you'd be away.



-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 9:09pm
Just a thought; but would T-foil offer more stable planing performance with a slippery low prismatic hull?

-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 9:13pm
It would, but would still fall over when left tied to the shore!

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by Rupert

It would, but would still fall over when left tied to the shore!

I guess that you can’t have it all ... floating racks?  Something like the Rocket Moth wings?


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 5:03am
I believe Jim Hunt won the phantom national champs when he weighed around 12 stone. If you are good then much of this optimum weight stuff goes by the way. I liked my Contender although it frustrated me in the light stuff when sailing with lasers that were nearly as quick on a pond, but if all was good we wouldn't have anything to talk about on the forum.

Buy a Contender, join your local fleet and enjoy winning in the lighter wind.

We stopped needing new designs about 10 new boats ago.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 7:25am
People have been saying we don't need new designs since Victorian times. I glad some people don't listen, from Linton Hope to Dan Holman via Morgan Giles, Uffa Fox, Ian Proctor, Jack Holt, Phil Morrison and a plethora of others.

As for "you can't have it all", we have been telling GRF that since he joined the forum. He hasn't listened yet, so maybe it's up to us now to figure out how to get the initial stability of a west wight scow coupled with the speed of a Contender with one hull, with the ability to go fast throughout the wind range.

For the latter, in some ways I think we have to take a look back at designs from the 60s, and branch out in a different direction from the high speed blasting boats which have come more recently, such as the Musto Skiff or the 49er, and also ignore all the heavy boats which have been designed with a nod to those boats, from pretty much every rotomould with a bowsprit to glass cruiser racers like the 2000 which get stability by being grossly overweight.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 7:50am
Whilst I have never meet you Graeme I believe you are a small chap and hence relatively light weight (i.e. probably at or under 80kg). If that is the case you actually have a huge choice of boats already which are well established with large fleets nationally and internationally. Whilst these offerings sound like they do not appeal to you, I suspect that the issue will be convincing enough people to leave these well established classes to come join you!

If you were a larger chap then the options are much more limited with Finn, Phantom & Blaze traditionally being your choices which is why the H2 got some traction as this segment was less served than the weight category you fit into.

Personally, I think it will be very hard to get traction.


-------------
H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 8:03am
I don’t think traction is an issue for Graeme, despite his complete displeasure with the PY system he appears to have equal disdain for fleet racing.

What about a Toy?


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Rupert

What happens if you stretch the Farr 3.7 concept to be more like 4.3

You get something rather like my Plusplus, which had a lot of the same DNA.







Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 9:08am
Buy a new Laser hull from LP, Laser 2 mast and standing rigging, better than Laser 1 rudder, redesigned dagger board that fits existing slot. Larger Laser 2 sail and wire should give you more speed than standard Laser 1 and in lighter winds you will be able to hike with other Laser 1 sailors.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 9:13am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

What happens if you stretch the Farr 3.7 concept to be more like 4.3

You get something rather like my Plusplus, which had a lot of the same DNA.


Sounds like we need to see pictures of the Plus Plus. I had thought that Rupert and it remains a relatively low-cost option, but as a marketable concept would it have the same appeal as something entirely new.

I'm also really impressed by the performance of the Aero 7, we've had a good guy learning how to get the best out of one on our water also this summer and there have been times when even on the wire (well semi wiring offwind) it has creamed past the Farr.) I do not like being overtaken and that's what's been going on all summer due to the lack of waterline length downwind.

So, would stretching the 3.7 stop that? It's already considerably heavier than an Aero.



-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 9:23am
Back to the concept, My thinking was split hull at the rear, mono bow. The two rear hulls would be canoe or div 2 hull shaped, centre tunnel joining them. the Tunnel would also provide a light wind trapezing point and help the kick out and a straddle point for elimination of kneeling down wind.

The Mono bow ends at the mast and centreboard case.

Having rounded rear hulls keeps wetted surface to the minimum for lake whilst also providing stability, not to wide this time so righting it isn't an issue like the V2.

Not being wide makes it also more suitable to trapezing or some form of wing for folk who don't want to trapeze, I think it should be optional.


-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 9:28am
Originally posted by 423zero

Buy a new Laser hull from LP, Laser 2 mast and standing rigging, better than Laser 1 rudder, redesigned dagger board that fits existing slot. Larger Laser 2 sail and wire should give you more speed than standard Laser 1 and in lighter winds you will be able to hike with other Laser 1 sailors.


HA, I had thought of that even. But it's not a great shape to trapeze off, like the aero, I had a look at that as I did the Phantom so see if I couldn't just put wires on something that already exists and the Phantom is probably the best to consider but it's still quite a step up from the inside onto the outer rail and you spend so much time in between in gusty wind.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 9:39am
Originally posted by davidyacht

I don’t think traction is an issue for Graeme, despite his complete displeasure with the PY system he appears to have equal disdain for fleet racing.
What about a Toy?


Never come across a Toy and fleet racing does emphasise body differences even more in dinghy than it does in windsurfing and people whine about any activity one might consider to even things out, like pumping.

Originally posted by H2

Whilst I have never meet you Graeme I believe you are a small chap and hence relatively light weight (i.e. probably at or under 80kg). If that is the case you actually have a huge choice of boats already which are well established with large fleets nationally and internationally. Whilst these offerings sound like they do not appeal to you, I suspect that the issue will be convincing enough people to leave these well established classes to come join you!
If you were a larger chap then the options are much more limited with Finn, Phantom & Blaze traditionally being your choices which is why the H2 got some traction as this segment was less served than the weight category you fit into.
Personally, I think it will be very hard to get traction.


Yes, 5'6" 67 kgs maybe 70 in full kit. As for all the boats, I have cast my gaze wide and been through a few now and have yet to come across one that isn't flawed in one way or another, you also need to add Contender to your big guys list, along with the D1, MPS,RS700, RS600, RS300, RS100, EPS In fact I'd argue there's more for big guys than small, what do we have? Streaker? Lightning? Supersofa? Solution is a middle weights boat as is the Solo and the Laser with it's main rig if the breeze is up. The Farr is the right boat for my size, it's just not the right length as I've said all along.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 12:18pm
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/toy" rel="nofollow - https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/toy

-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 1:01pm
When I owned a ToY I found it very heavy and lacking in power, despite the seat. Shroud base too far back to do more than broad reach, but the speed wasn't there to make it worth it. Too easily beaten by Lasers.

A modern take on the concept, half the weight, maybe with a similar bow but with GRFs tunnel hull aft, if we have to!

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Buy a new Laser hull from LP, Laser 2 mast and standing rigging, better than Laser 1 rudder, redesigned dagger board that fits existing slot. Larger Laser 2 sail and wire should give you more speed than standard Laser 1 and in lighter winds you will be able to hike with other Laser 1 sailors.


Can you fit a L2 rig on a Laser ?.

One is totally unstayed ?

One sail or 2 ?

This surely is not a great plan.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by davidyacht

I don’t think traction is an issue for Graeme, despite his complete displeasure with the PY system he appears to have equal disdain for fleet racing.
What about a Toy?


Never come across a Toy and fleet racing does emphasise body differences even more in dinghy than it does in windsurfing and people whine about any activity one might consider to even things out, like pumping.

Originally posted by H2

Whilst I have never meet you Graeme I believe you are a small chap and hence relatively light weight (i.e. probably at or under 80kg). If that is the case you actually have a huge choice of boats already which are well established with large fleets nationally and internationally. Whilst these offerings sound like they do not appeal to you, I suspect that the issue will be convincing enough people to leave these well established classes to come join you!
If you were a larger chap then the options are much more limited with Finn, Phantom & Blaze traditionally being your choices which is why the H2 got some traction as this segment was less served than the weight category you fit into.
Personally, I think it will be very hard to get traction.


Yes, 5'6" 67 kgs maybe 70 in full kit. As for all the boats, I have cast my gaze wide and been through a few now and have yet to come across one that isn't flawed in one way or another, you also need to add Contender to your big guys list, along with the D1, MPS,RS700, RS600, RS300, RS100, EPS In fact I'd argue there's more for big guys than small, what do we have? Streaker? Lightning? Supersofa? Solution is a middle weights boat as is the Solo and the Laser with it's main rig if the breeze is up. The Farr is the right boat for my size, it's just not the right length as I've said all along.


Buy a Contender. Get a flat cut sail for the breezy days.

Accept that, at your size, you wont be quick in breeze (the same will really apply to any single hander)

Enjoy the light days.

Learn to sail it to the point that the limiting factor isn't you

Then - once you have pushed the boat to its limit - think about what you could do to make it better

Sorted

Next


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by davidyacht

I don’t think traction is an issue for Graeme, despite his complete displeasure with the PY system he appears to have equal disdain for fleet racing.
What about a Toy?


Never come across a Toy and fleet racing does emphasise body differences even more in dinghy than it does in windsurfing and people whine about any activity one might consider to even things out, like pumping.

Originally posted by H2

Whilst I have never meet you Graeme I believe you are a small chap and hence relatively light weight (i.e. probably at or under 80kg). If that is the case you actually have a huge choice of boats already which are well established with large fleets nationally and internationally. Whilst these offerings sound like they do not appeal to you, I suspect that the issue will be convincing enough people to leave these well established classes to come join you!
If you were a larger chap then the options are much more limited with Finn, Phantom & Blaze traditionally being your choices which is why the H2 got some traction as this segment was less served than the weight category you fit into.
Personally, I think it will be very hard to get traction.


Yes, 5'6" 67 kgs maybe 70 in full kit. As for all the boats, I have cast my gaze wide and been through a few now and have yet to come across one that isn't flawed in one way or another, you also need to add Contender to your big guys list, along with the D1, MPS,RS700, RS600, RS300, RS100, EPS In fact I'd argue there's more for big guys than small, what do we have? Streaker? Lightning? Supersofa? Solution is a middle weights boat as is the Solo and the Laser with it's main rig if the breeze is up. The Farr is the right boat for my size, it's just not the right length as I've said all along.


Buy a Contender. Get a flat cut sail for the breezy days.

Accept that, at your size, you wont be quick in breeze (the same will really apply to any single hander)

Enjoy the light days.

Learn to sail it to the point that the limiting factor isn't you

Then - once you have pushed the boat to its limit - think about what you could do to make it better

Sorted

Next


And to keep your drive to develop and design happy, go crazy on the fit out and setup


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by 423zero

Buy a new Laser hull from LP, Laser 2 mast and standing rigging, better than Laser 1 rudder, redesigned dagger board that fits existing slot. Larger Laser 2 sail and wire should give you more speed than standard Laser 1 and in lighter winds you will be able to hike with other Laser 1 sailors.


Can you fit a L2 rig on a Laser ?.

One is totally unstayed ?

One sail or 2 ?

This surely is not a great plan.

There would have to be an adaptor between Laser 2 mast foot and Laser 1 mast pot.
Laser with a sail you can drop.
I would go with option of a 3 sail set up, Laser 2 already as fittings for them.
Not something I would do myself, I prefer classic boats.


-------------
Robert


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 1:53pm
I know nothing of them but for us small and grey oldies I thought the Blaze Fire an interesting idea. 

edit add. Still loving my Contender inland @ 5' 3" and now down to 70kgs, really quite a gentleman's tool up to a decent breeze now I'm settled to a technique that suits, not too sure I'd be heavy enough to recover it from capsize in a sea though if I got caught out and it came up rough.  


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Do Different


I know nothing of them but for us small and grey oldies I thought the Blaze Fire an interesting idea. 
edit add. Still loving my Contender inland @ 5' 3" and now down to 70kgs, really quite a gentleman's tool up to a decent breeze now I'm settled to a technique that suits, not too sure I'd be heavy enough to recover it from capsize in a sea though if I got caught out and it came up rough.  


Yes, and there are a couple of Blazes now that come out occasionally and one with a Fire rig.

So it is feasible a Contender then? They've got mahoosive sails 11 sq mtr isn't it? I went over to the nationals to have a look didn't come across too many guys my build, although there was one ex windsurfer of my acquaintance. Friendly bunch though.

And you must get punished by the Laserati on light wind days, without the ability to run by the lee (which I see as it's biggest light wind liability) nor can you change the angle of the rig on the fly, so no pulling it more upright down wind which might help.


On another point, Rupert if you're reading this, what are your issues with having two aft hulls? I was thinking wetted area reduction, no flushing strips to worry about, the stability to totally raise the plate offwind, other than it's weird what could possibly go wrong?


-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 2:32pm
Think of your Minisprint with no turrets and centre of hull removed aft of centre board, larger side tanks obviously, gantry linking tanks for rudder.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/toy" rel="nofollow - https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/toy

Originally posted by Rupert

When I owned a ToY I found it very heavy and lacking in power, despite the seat. Shroud base too far back to do more than broad reach, but the speed wasn't there to make it worth it. Too easily beaten by Lasers.

A modern take on the concept, half the weight, maybe with a similar bow but with GRFs tunnel hull aft, if we have to!


It looks like a single handed Fireball, difficult to tell from that picture I shall have a research tonight

Have a think about the Twin hull idea Rupert, reduced wetted area , no flushing strips, kick the plate all the way up offwind. They could even taper off so the boat would be like a swallowtail board but with higher volume in the tails

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 3:34pm
I probably shouldn't have commented iGRF, as I suspect we have different agendas.
I don't give two hoots about how it compares to Lasers in v. light; it is what it is, a great big long, elegant and powerful piece of a sailing classic. Also, really relaxing to lay about in while waiting for breeze to fill.
At our sizes I'm wiring and hanging out comfortably with next to no effort in any sort of breeze while others are hiking and beginning to lean out!  When it pipes up a bit more, pulling on cunningham and sailing free n easy for max VMG while others are really hurting. If I get caught out 2 miles at the far side of the res. in a real squall all that length makes it a very predictable platform to deep reach home standing on the rear quarter.
Always liked them and now doing it late in life as a greying midget. Of course I do absolutely nothing on PY, why would that bother me set against all the plus points? 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 5:41pm
Given that the PY's are arrived at from a mix of venues I'd be surprised if any trap boat can be competitive on any but the very biggest lakes and only the flat-land ones at that (I suspect your's is one of those DD if the far side is 2 miles away). Places like Bala and Ullswater are usually gusty enough to make trapezing anything but a pleasure unless the wind is down the length. The fittest, most agile sailors will still do alright but for us ordinary guys a hiking boat with a relatively modest rig is always going to be easier to sail to it's numbers. On open water OTOH where the extra power is more usable then traps and big rigs are the way to go.

Why don't you build your sub 50kg carbon Contender, give it a modern rig and a different name and see how you go Graeme?


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 6:08pm
When I had my Contender, I thought the hotshot who advised me on rake "back until you cant get under the boom, then up one hole" was joking.

He wasnt.

A lovely boat


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Do Different

I know nothing of them but for us small and grey oldies I thought the Blaze Fire an interesting idea.

The Fire sail is fantastic (I have one) but the Blaze standard sail is so controllable that I have used the Fire twice.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 6:34pm
iGRF, to be honest I think you'll struggle in any trapeze singlehander as they all seem to cater for 75-100kg sailors.

For your weight and diminutive stature I think you'd be better suited to the following:

Europe
Streaker
Comet
Byte CII
Aero 5
Topper

Perhaps you could show some of the Topper squads a bit of that Lee bow theory ;)

-------------
OK 2129
RS200 411


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 6:43pm
Ha ha Sam. 
It's a fact, I am an ex  Southern N. Sea flatlander but last 12yrs far from flat, a sailing culture shock I wasn't used to 45º shifts and 100% gusts. 
Easterly up the valley and over the Dam is a joy but the prevailing westerly over the hills and fells keeps it interesting on a trapeze singlehander; eyes out on stalks watching the water ahead.
I do get some respite with my other boat being three sail two person single wire; mind you my crew appreciates the sharpening effect of Contender sailing on my helming. 




Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 6:58pm
What's the opinion on 600s? They do have a reefing option ( if the extender isn't seized solid) and do appear to be staging a comeback with old boats coming out of the nettles. Shorter and lighter than a Contender so less wetted area to drag along in light stuff.



Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Do Different

What's the opinion on 600s? They do have a reefing option ( if the extender isn't seized solid) and do appear to be staging a comeback with old boats coming out of the nettles. Shorter and lighter than a Contender so less wetted area to drag along in light stuff.


Full battens made it a challenge in some wind for me. I found the Contender rig much friendlier.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by Do Different

What's the opinion on 600s?


A couple of pals set my mind against them almost from day one, the first was a guy called Roger Tushingham who once conducted an Olympic campaign in a boat called a Flying Dutchman, so no slouch as a dinghy sailor although he was better known as a windsurfer and sail maker, he once 'tried' a 600 on a sailing vacation at Minorca sailing holidays, called it impossible.
The second was Guy Farrant, (his father was the 505 World Champion Derek and my former business partner)the chap that got me into dinghy sailing by loaning me that infernal MPS, which he'd traded into after finding the 600 ridiculous over a certain wind strength. So I've never looked at them seriously. Both were good windsurfers and have excellent motor skills, so if they decided to kick the boat to the kerb, why waste my time on it?

I did miss an absolute bargain once, a fully foiled version for sale at 1500 quid which the foils alone must have been worth and could have been fitted to something else.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by craiggo

iGRF, to be honest I think you'll struggle in any trapeze singlehander as they all seem to cater for 75-100kg sailors.

For your weight and diminutive stature I think you'd be better suited to the following:

Europe
Streaker
Comet
Byte CII
Aero 5
Topper

Perhaps you could show some of the Topper squads a bit of that Lee bow theory ;)


Whereupon the better choice would be a home for the elderly & clinically insane where I could contemplate the land pulling me upwind, whilst I watch the grass grow, interspersed with sticking needles in my eyes for more excitement.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 8:52pm
What about this Graeme?
Woodsdesign zest
https://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/46-beach-cats-and-dinghies/436-zest
Good little boat with good provenance.
Similar part of the design space to plus plus I think.
You could make it bloody light in foam sandwich from the same plans.
You could buy an off the shelf ok mast and get a nice
Modern sail to fit on that, then you have by the Lee.
You can’t in my opinion reconcile the requirements for trapping and an unstated rig allowing by the Lee.
Else you could make one of these get a hadron h2 rig or something similar offthe shelf.
You could put posher foils on this too.
I also think you’d like d one with smaller rig.
Dan


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

What about this Graeme?
Woodsdesign zest
https://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/46-beach-cats-and-dinghies/436-zest" rel="nofollow - https://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/46-beach-cats-and-dinghies/436-zest
Good little boat with good provenance.
Similar part of the design space to plus plus I think.
You could make it bloody light in foam sandwich from the same plans.
You could buy an off the shelf ok mast and get a nice
Modern sail to fit on that, then you have by the Lee.
You can’t in my opinion reconcile the requirements for trapping and an unstated rig allowing by the Lee.
Else you could make one of these get a hadron h2 rig or something similar offthe shelf.
You could put posher foils on this too.
I also think you’d like d one with smaller rig.
Dan


Great source!,

So, your task Jim should you choose to accept it, is to combine the rear half of that quattro beach cat and the front half of the Zest into a workable format and plans and as before all knowledge of your involvement will be dis avowed.

I've been thinking about the running by the lee thing and came to the conclusion maybe with forward facing spreaders like I've seen on those moths, but with the shrouds and lowers conventionally mounted but with maybe the boom swivel point redesigned it could be done.

I did enjoy the D one it's a great sail, but right up there with the Contender in beach none manouevrability.

Er, a bit concerned with that 'you could make...' expression, the last thing I made personally sank at weymouth speed trials in 2006. not before it earned the dubious title 'water pusher' I had to be rescued.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 27 Sep 19 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by iGRF

[
Er, a bit concerned with that 'you could make...' expression, the last thing I made personally sank at weymouth speed trials in 2006. not before it earned the dubious title 'water pusher' I had to be rescued.


Ok substitute ”you” for skilled boatbuilder throughout. At least with something that could be made off plan it could be made for closer to the price of a small family car than a medium sized family car.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 6:41am
Back to the question far back in the thread GRF. My issue with monohull to twin hull is the turbulence at the interface, and the problems with surface piercing foils, plus light wind speed issues.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 9:58am
What about tasking the existing Contender builder to create a one off at about 50kgs? It would be a new class but with proven set up credentials to reduce the test and adjust time. The time could then be spent creating a new modern rig to allow a lower weight helm, which will also be assisted by the lower weight hull. Probably cheaper than a from scratch development.

I’d be interested to see a boat with the Contenders inherent stability without the 600’s no compromise rig/ hull form.

It might be quite tricky to tack in chop like a an IC is without the hull weight inertia.

-------------


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 10:41am
Originally posted by E.J.

What about tasking the existing Contender builder to create a one off at about 50kgs? It would be a new class but with proven set up credentials to reduce the test and adjust time. The time could then be spent creating a new modern rig to allow a lower weight helm, which will also be assisted by the lower weight hull. Probably cheaper than a from scratch development.

I’d be interested to see a boat with the Contenders inherent stability without the 600’s no compromise rig/ hull form.

It might be quite tricky to tack in chop like a an IC is without the hull weight inertia.


I did approach Hartleys at one show or other asking if they'd consider it, but got the usual treatment unknowns get at shows by amateur boatbuilding sales staff even if you have the cheque in your pocket. (You won't believe how many sales have been lost by idiots ignoring customers with the cash burning a hole in their pocket) but the answer was no, which is a shame.

When you consider it must be one of the few single handers that need a crew to help pull up the slip, not one boat at the Nationals was recovered single handed and the extreme irony? They're all carrying lead.
Yet they have some amazing high tech rigs, rdm masts (windsurfing term for reduced diameter mast, they called it something different). So I fully agree a Contender Lite would be the ultimate option especially if, as a new class a couple of other rules could be introduced like on the fly rake adjustment, shrouds more friendly to running by the lee. (It can be managed in the Solution if you slacken them and fully dump the kicker) They already have some shorter leech rigs that helps the nose grinding the deck during tacks issue. If the hull were down to the maximum least weight it could be, I'm sure there's a formula somewhere that the sail size could be reduced to in order to maintain performance similarity.

But it's the obvious and common sense thing to do, so no chance of it ever happening in this industry.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 12:26pm
Griff,
If you like a boat why not find a way of dragging it up the beach, get a small tractor or something similar, someone at Draycott was converting a disability scooter for launch and recovery, develop something like This thousands would thank you.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Delta
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 1:51pm
I would of thought a low-rider International Moth would suit your requirements, quick in light airs can be sailed in a breeze and bimbling to your hearts content .
An early Magnum design or one known for better stability must be lurking waiting to be picked up for a few pounds.
Or ask John Claridge to knock you up one slightly beefed up for your shore dump, much cheaper than 20k experiment.
Or there must be loads of unwanted hulls from all sorts of classes with known characteristics that you can develop a good rig on, until ready for the 20k version.
Years ago somebody stuck a sliding seat on a Fireball and did well in the old IYRU single-handed trials (minus the kite).  



-------------
http://www.stopthetraffik.org/help/declaration.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.stopthetraffik.org/help/declaration.aspx


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Griff,
If you like a boat why not find a way of dragging it up the beach, get a small tractor or something similar, someone at Draycott was converting a disability scooter for launch and recovery, develop something like This thousands would thank you.


Griff? Great that's a new one, I'll add it to the list I quite like that one.

We have a winch, once the boats on the trailor, but it's not just getting it up the beach, launching it, pulling the damn thing even down the shingle is a drag, then there are times you don't get much time before it'll be pummelled if you hang around at the waters edge, and if say you've had to bale early and there's no-one on the beach, just getting it clear of the water is a herculean effort, never mind onto the trailor, tha's a two or three man job. I can just about get my Farr out and onto its trolley alone. This was what really killed my enthusiasm for the V2 I built, it turned out off the scale weight wise.

Fundamentals 1) Light, 50kgs tops. 2) Retracting foils it was humourous to watch some of the recovery antics at Broadstairs with those with bladed fixed rudders having to capsize in the surf before the water got too shallow. Our Aero chap gets up to some shenanigans at times, our beach = kick back everything preferably.



-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 3:51pm
Nobody has mentioned the Vortex yet (ducks and runs for cover Tongue)

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 5:05pm
Griffin bloody auto correct.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 28 Sep 19 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by iGRF



Never come across a Toy and fleet racing does emphasise body differences even more in dinghy than it does in windsurfing and people whine about any activity one might consider to even things out, like pumping.



Why not get a Europe then...a class on the up, cheap robust second hand boats, a mast and sail to match your body size, free pumping in 10+ knots, 45kg hull, not far off boat for boat racing with Lasers in most conditions, a short hop across on the ferry gets you 50-150 boat fleets in some nice corners of Europe including a Masters Europeans.

Wink

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/221946/Europe-class-Open-Belgium-Championship" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/221946/Europe-class-Open-Belgium-Championship




Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 6:54am
So - you want a new craft that will compete/beat the Contenders, is
light, easy to launch recover etc ?

Perhaps start with a lightweight (20kg) hull. retracting daggerboard, approx 3.8m long, dispense with the wiggle stick and use a fixed 'mini rudder', set the rig from a track that slides fore and aft, dispense with those silly wire shrouds, install a flexible joint between the mast base and the track, dispense with those silly toe straps, stand more on it than in it, use your bodyweight to support the rig, cant the rig to windward, use feet and rig movement to steer

Give it a suitable name - perhaps after a strong wind - Mistral ?, Tornado ?

Cant imagine why you've not tried this ?



Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 8:21am
Or you could;-

- get a correct size sail, from a good loft for your 3.7 (yours is undersize)

- think about your rig, which isn't right. (the hull is one design, the rig is a box rule)

- add an Asymmetric to your 3.7 (totally within the rules)

- carry on developing your T foil (it needs to be adjustable. Totally within the rules)

i.e spend your thought on developing a boat that suits you, rather than looking elsewhere to coarsely increase your position on the water by means of a boat that will only suit you in light weather.

But - the easiest solution to your light weather dilemma. If you don't want to engage your mental faculties to improve what you have, is to get a bigger sail for your 3.7.

I could even give you the 'work in progress' for the increased sized sail that was being developed by the class back in 2012. For consideration at the AGM. It didn't progress. But there's no reason that it shouldn't be voted in for UK use. If you developed a bigger sail plan that performed well. 


-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 8:53am
Captain Sparrow's post makes a lot of sense. More power, even within the current rule set, could just give you the nudge you need. If you can get planing at a point where the lasers are still displacement, you'll reduce the wind strength you need to beat them. That then gives on confidence in the boat, and a virtuous circle begins.

And developing a new sail, even a new rig, is cheaper than a whole boat!

And go visit other 3.7s for some mutual coaching/practice.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 9:04am
Originally posted by rich96

So - you want a new craft that will compete/beat the Contenders, is
light, easy to launch recover etc ?

Perhaps start with a lightweight (20kg) hull. retracting daggerboard, approx 3.8m long, dispense with the wiggle stick and use a fixed 'mini rudder', set the rig from a track that slides fore and aft, dispense with those silly wire shrouds, install a flexible joint between the mast base and the track, dispense with those silly toe straps, stand more on it than in it, use your bodyweight to support the rig, cant the rig to windward, use feet and rig movement to steer

Give it a suitable name - perhaps after a strong wind - Mistral ?, Tornado ?

Cant imagine why you've not tried this ?


Ridiculous - it will never work! It's obviously going to be physically impossible to balance something like that. What sort of fool do you take Grumpf for?


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 11:40am
Originally posted by CT249


Originally posted by rich96

So - you want a new craft that will compete/beat the Contenders, is
light, easy to launch recover etc ?

Perhaps start with a lightweight (20kg) hull. retracting daggerboard, approx 3.8m long, dispense with the wiggle stick and use a fixed 'mini rudder', set the rig from a track that slides fore and aft, dispense with those silly wire shrouds, install a flexible joint between the mast base and the track, dispense with those silly toe straps, stand more on it than in it, use your bodyweight to support the rig, cant the rig to windward, use feet and rig movement to steer

Give it a suitable name - perhaps after a strong wind - Mistral ?, Tornado ?

Cant imagine why you've not tried this ?




Ridiculous - it will never work! It's obviously going to be physically impossible to balance something like that. What sort of fool do you take Grumpf for?


I have, but the RYA won't recognise it on their handicap system even though they are supposed to be Windsurfings governing body, the last excuse I heard was that there were 'too radical differences between planing and none planing" Then they went and granted a yardstick to Foiling craft..

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Rupert

Captain Sparrow's post makes a lot of sense. More power, even within the current rule set, could just give you the nudge you need. If you can get planing at a point where the lasers are still displacement, you'll reduce the wind strength you need to beat them. That then gives on confidence in the boat, and a virtuous circle begins.

And developing a new sail, even a new rig, is cheaper than a whole boat!

And go visit other 3.7s for some mutual coaching/practice.


I agree and retain this as the current option, I've tried a fixed foil which had an effect but more negative than positive. The problem is that there aren't exactly T foil rudder shops you can just rock up and buy.

Re the sail I cut down a Vortex sail I had left over from the V2 and it does improve the off the start line capability in light airs and earlier trapezing so it is a thing I'm working on, I've asked my local sail builder who is unfortunately rushed off his feet with work in season and following his post I shall ask cap'n jack. We have a facebook page we chat about this stuff on but the problem is there are so few of us and we are all at the furthest points of the country South West, South East, Nosebleed West etc and some of the earlier class stalwarts that could help have had to give up through health issues.

But the big issue remains waterline length and as you suggested earlier, it needs stretching.

It's already like Triggers broom the bits I'm paying to have rebuilt, all in under two years of ownership and it's got to go back this winter for further repairs and upgrades. So sometimes you wonder wether it's good money after bad and better to clear the decks and start over, hence the quandry that started the thread.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 2:39pm
I assume rudder is on a gantry?

Could be worth contacting Jo Richards, who designed a N12 with a T foil which whipped everything.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 5:36pm
Graham - Delta has already given you a good idea - a low rider Moth, Up in North Wales Miles James is turning out Axeman hulls in Carbon - I think then come out at 8kg. Knowing how aware you are of the conditions at H&S, you could go for something a generation earlier than the Axeman - as Delta said, a Magnum (John Claridge still has the moulds) which is not only quick enough to easily beat the laserarti, but because the PY system was still playing catch up, if you get the right design you're not hauled back by a hefty PY number (the low riders now have a nice, official set of PYs on an age related sliding scale - but that is boat age, not you). Plus of course there is a lot of interest today in the low riders, so you'd not be the only lowrider in your village.
There is of course a downside: sailing a lowrider will put you at the bottom of a very steep learning curve and there is just no way around that. Moth sailors of yesteryear have all been there, sworn that they'd "burn the bloody thing" only to find themselves ripping past much faster boats on the water. At 70kg you'd be perfect, for less than the cost of your t-foil, you could be out there and getting to grips with the idea. Come to think about it...with all your boardsailing experience, the 'half on the wings' water start would be a natural progression for you. Once you've cracked the basics, then the world of innovation really is your oyster.... it is worthy of serious thought
D


-------------
Dougal H


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 6:40pm
Remembering GRFs comments in the past about how certain boats are impossible to sail (read, you can't just jump in and go) I don't think a low rider is the way to go.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Sep 19 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Remembering GRFs comments in the past about how certain boats are impossible to sail (read, you can't just jump in and go) I don't think a low rider is the way to go.


And you'd be right. I once race officered for the Moth Europeans held at Hythe back in 1988 or thereabouts, we had a practice race it was a light force 2-3 maybe early 4 tops. They ended up scattered between Hythe and Seabrooke 2 miles down the coast almost every groin had a moth stranded ashore. Don't think I'll be headed in that direction anytime soon if I were going to I might as well go the whole hog and foil.

Jack's now got me pondering how much more performance I could squeeze out of the 3.7, it is such a joy to sail, just not a great race boat in a handicap fleet where it's difficult to beat bloody Lasers over the water, never mind the spreadsheet, not that that even worrys me that much these days if I've had a great sail and half decent over the water result.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 30 Sep 19 at 1:23pm
NZ Farr 3.7's regularly beat Lasers over the water.

Much of the issue when not powered up is downwind where Lasers are not hampered by shrouds. Adding an Asymmetric powers you up downwind in your handicap fleet. When you fleet race 3.7's (eventually) you are still legal and not handicapped by weight. You can remove correctors to compensate for your spinnaker kit, to 50kg. Hulls have been / can be built down to 30kg ish for this purpose.

Talk to Mike Cooke at Aardvark Technologies who could put you in touch with Kevin Ellway who could do the maths for a T Foil solution. Mike can sort your adjustable rudder system and 3D CNC the foil etc...

Talk to Chris Mitchel (NZ Americas Cup boffin and NZ 3.7 Class Sec) about your rig etc...

And all should be good.

edit: (retrofitting a spinnaker to your 3.7)
https://www.peterkovesi.com/home/farr37/kite.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.peterkovesi.com/home/farr37/kite.html

Look how good she looks:




-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Oct 19 at 4:56am
Yes Jack it does look very good.

iGRF.  Admittedly I don't know the build issues which might have tainted your feelings but really two years is no time at all to tweak and get fully comfortable with a new boat.

It sounds like the ideal platform for your stature and from what Jack says it's not yet fully optimised in single sail form and then there's the kite option to explore. 

I know you've an inquisitive mind but just try thinking of the time you have in the bank with the 3.7 as an investment that with a little more time and tweaks will payout into a really nice package.

Alright it's a bit short. Com'on though, so are you and I, like what you have, shorties can have their day and where'd be the fun if it was always easy? Embrace your inner terrier and enjoy being an ankle nipper ( I do ).
       


Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a005e'

Invalid use of Null: 'Replace'

/forum/functions/functions_format_post.asp, line 959