Print Page | Close Window

Duties.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13249
Printed Date: 22 Apr 19 at 1:57pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Duties.
Posted By: 423zero
Subject: Duties.
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 1:46pm
My club is probably not alone in this issue, members failing to do duties.
We are probably fairly unique in being a small functioning club (30 odd active members), so we have to temper 'punishment' (?) with risk of losing some members.

The structure is each member is expected to do 4 duties per year, 2 in summer season 2 in winter season, their are members who have never done a duty or attended training on how to do duties.

We do not have any members who are for want of a better description 'unpleasant'.

I have suggested increasing membership dues by £80, £20 per duty, when you do your duty £20 is deducted from your dues, those that don't do duties have to pay the extra £80, members who have to step in have their dues decreased by the £20 non attending member pays.

What do other clubs do ? Does it work ?




Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 2:01pm
Were it my club my first concern would be tax and employment law unintended consequences, and my second would be whether the implied "its OK to pay 20quid to get out of a duty" would result in many more duties undone and an unfair load going on the willing.

RYA legal could probably advise on the first. The second, well I'd start by finding out how many members are willing to do *more* duties...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 2:18pm
You are not actually receiving money, you will not be paying full amount, pensioners and kids already have a discount, isn't it the same ?
I wouldn't think anyone would want to do extra duties, never been a time when  someone hasn't stepped in though.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 2:54pm
Just been researching Tax and employment law, checking through CASC regulations, came across this section 2.3.11 you cannot refuse membership to someone who refuses to do voluntary work, so presumably you cannot set up a 'punish or reward scheme' ?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 6:17pm
Just because you can't refuse them, doesn't mean you can't reward others who do the work. Does cast doubt on the other way round, though?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 8:46pm
Tough one, my club has a couple of hundred members, and a fair percentage of those 'active'. I do get a few requests for cover but not too many. We do 2 or 3 duties in a year, I did 4 in my first year (2017) and will have done 3 this year by the time the next rota is planned. I am happy to do an extra one and/or some other work party stuff. If I could sail every weekend and every Wednesday like I did in my youth I'd volunteer for more duties happily but I paid my dues for 13 years as Chairman of my windsurfing club so I don't feel ready to make a bigger commitment just now.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 8:55am
Originally posted by 423zero

You are not actually receiving money, you will not be paying full amount, pensioners and kids already have a discount, isn't it the same ?

I don't know, that's why you need to get a professional opinion. The law is too complicated for anything else. The CASC thing you found, for example, is something I'd not have thought of checking.

Originally posted by 423zero

I wouldn't think anyone would want to do extra duties, never been a time when† someone hasn't stepped in though.


That's kinda my point. There's a social pressure on people to do their duties and not let others down. I suspect that if one provides a cash alternative then folk who currently do duties reluctantly will gratefully take up the cash alternative, which leave the club requiring the remaining people to do more duties.

Of course if the income from cash alternatives were sufficient to pay someone to have a part time job as race assistant or whatever that would be another matter, but if a club were to be paying the living wage hourly rates the cash alternative would need to be a great deal more - at a guess something over £100 by the time you've allowed for all the hidden costs of employing someone over basic wage.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 9:18am
If youíve only 30 members everyone must know everyone. Just tell the duty dodgers that, to be fair to everyone, they canít sail again until they do their turn.

As an aside, running a race with a team less than three must be tough, so Iíd have thought it was duties every ten weeks or so.


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 9:43am
We do offer the double your subs to not do any duty and we only have one who takes that up out of 120 ish. Maybe that's the way to handle it.
Also a name and shame for those not turning up especially for repeat offenders.


-------------
Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 10:04am
Unfortunately after finding the CASC thing it appears theirs nothing you can do.
Another section of CASC states you cannot refuse membership to someone who can't afford fees, you have to accept what they are prepared to pay.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 10:36am
Who is the ons of proof on though? Do they have to prove they can't afford the subs or do you have to take their word for it?

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 11:06am
They would have to provide proof of income I suppose? Got the makings of a paperwork nightmare.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 11:40am
Proof of income alone doesn't prove affordability or otherwise of the subs. A retired member with no mortgage living in a small flat may have a very low income but equally low outgoings, a single parent living in rented accommodation and working full time may have substantially more income but be barely able to make ends meet. A paperwork nightmare indeed. The people who designed the CASC regs don't seem to have thought it through.......

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 12:14pm
I would also suspect that there could/would be a few who would take the view paying an extra £80 and not having to do duties would be worth it. The law of unintended consequences and all that..

-------------
OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 12:22pm
It must be very hard resourcing a duty rota with so few active members. I organised the sailing programme and duty rotas at my club for several years, I found it hard to a) ensure there was sufficient skills on duty for any one event, but also b) not give members with more skills and experience an unrealistic level of duties. Even with the 100 or so members we had I was struggling to keep duty commitments to less than 3 or 4 a season, and even then we were very reliant on some of our retired guys doing additional duties for mid week sailing and other events. I used to get somewhat frustrated at AGM time when individuals would rock up and say "why doesn't the club do xyz race series/training course/open event etc etc". Well yes, but of course it's putting more and more of a load on our volunteers who at some point say "enough is enough".`

I guess all I can suggest is having some honest debates in the club around what sort of events the club wants to support, and on the back of that how much voluntary effort members are willing to put in. At my club, there seems to have emerged a sort of split of events, where bigger events (like opens and sunday racing) is resourced properly, and smaller events (eg mid week sailing) that are resourced informally.  By informally this can often mean having one of the sailors sounding pursuit racing starting signals then sailing after the fleet once everyone's started !    The finishing order is basically down to scouts honour within the participants.  To an old school guy like me this feels like unbelievable amateurism with some big risks around safety cover, but hey folk seem to accept it as it gets them out of duties. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Late starter

By informally this can often mean having one of the sailors sounding pursuit racing starting signals then sailing after the fleet once everyone's started !    The finishing order is basically down to scouts honour within the participants.  To an old school guy like me this feels like unbelievable amateurism with some big risks around safety cover, but hey folk seem to accept it as it gets them out of duties. 

We did this for years at my old windsurfing club. With only 5-10 racing it was gate starts and self rescue (windsurfers are pretty self sufficient and the safety RHIB was on hand, and on the water if there was much wind). We even did the same successfully at some open meetings with up to 20 sailors taking part. I don't see it as a question of people 'getting out' of doing duties but a way of allowing everybody to sail/race on the day. For a small number of racers who are not taking it too seriously it seems like an equitable compromise.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 12:58pm
At our club we have to do four half day duties per year. The duty rota opens on 1st January and anyone who has failed to sign up by end of January gets duties allocated and then they are responsible to do them or swap. Automated emails are sent 30 days and 7 days before the duty as a reminder and the race officer usually gets in touch with members in the few days before they are on duty to arrange who does what. Seems to work well with few issues. There is an option to buy out of doing duties at £50 per slot so a total of £200 if you wish. No idea if anyone does actually pay this!

In addition we have an informal race series in Jan / Feb / March and if you sail you are asked to sign up for at least one extra duty with social pressure used and name/shame over the clubs facebook used to get people to do duties. Seems to work ok too.


-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 1:06pm
We are allocated 4 slots, then some of the Saturdays say volunteers, usually retired Commodore who no longer sails does these, mid week until sea cadets turn up mid afternoon theirs no safety cover, they organise themselves.


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Late starter

By informally this can often mean having one of the sailors sounding pursuit racing starting signals then sailing after the fleet once everyone's started !    The finishing order is basically down to scouts honour within the participants.  To an old school guy like me this feels like unbelievable amateurism with some big risks around safety cover, but hey folk seem to accept it as it gets them out of duties. 

We did this for years at my old windsurfing club. With only 5-10 racing it was gate starts and self rescue (windsurfers are pretty self sufficient and the safety RHIB was on hand, and on the water if there was much wind). We even did the same successfully at some open meetings with up to 20 sailors taking part. I don't see it as a question of people 'getting out' of doing duties but a way of allowing everybody to sail/race on the day. For a small number of racers who are not taking it too seriously it seems like an equitable compromise.

Yes, and I think that's where I was coming from. Old gits like me won't like it as we've been too schooled to flinch whenever someone mentions health and safety, but it's this sort of compromise that actually does seem to work for the guys at the club who do it.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 1:21pm
As long as people stop racing to help others its not too much of an issue. The thing about safety boats is that it enables you to carry on racing and let safety boats deal with anyone having problems. I've had to stop in a championship race and ferry someone to the nearest dry land when safety boats were overwhelmed: its a fundamental principle.

The other question that's always well worth asking yourselves is "how would this read in the newspaper?"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 1:27pm
Jim,
Would read badly, Local authority who own our lake would ban it straight away, someone made the mistake of asking about using a 2 stroke outboard that he had used for 20 years, you can guess the outcome


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 1:53pm
Obviously sailing on a small lake where you'll blow ashore in 10 mins or is is a different proposition to sailing on open water (or a huge lake). Windsurfers have historically, looked after themselves much of the time and only a very few join clubs of any kind (usually for access to a local pond).

Cruising sailors (in dinghies and keelboats) are also expected to be self sufficient, it's only the racing guys who consider safety cover a near essential. The only real difference is that racers will sail what a crushing sailor may consider unsuitable boats in unsuitable conditions and will push harder thus being more likely to have a breakage.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Unfortunately after finding the CASC thing it appears theirs nothing you can do.
Another section of CASC states you cannot refuse membership to someone who can't afford fees, you have to accept what they are prepared to pay.

Really; how is a club supposed to asses how much an individual can afford?

I can't see them doing a full personal financial review.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 2:13pm
you.gov says :- "

Membership fees

CASCs canít charge more than £31 a week for membership, and clubs that charge more than £10 a week must provide help (eg a discount) for people who canít pay.

"

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 2:50pm
The £10 a week is not just a membership fee but all costs associated with participation. So if you have to pay weekly subs or personally provide essential equipment this counts towards it. For example if boat ownership were a requirement of club membership (unlikely) or the club rules stipulate wetsuits and buoyancy aids must be worn the cost of these would count towards the tenner a week. If that puts participation over a tenner the CASC probably ought to have gear it can lend to members.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 3:53pm
RE duties, at my club doing 2 duties is a condition of membership (not sure if we are still CASC or not). Anyone who fails to show without good reason gets a friendly chat from the duty officer. It doesnt happen that often and there is usually a good reason for it. We do have automated email reminders and the like that go out.

For the winter series events doing a duty is part of the qualification criteria for the series. If you dont do a duty you get a large scoring penalty and get spoken to by the duty officer if you are not doing your fair share. A duty in the winter is either a morning or an afternoon (so 1 race) and extra races get a reward of average series points.

Reading about the CASC regs here all it says is you cannot refuse membership to someone who doesn't do volunteer so not sure what could be done if someone outright refuses. I would imagine they are unlikely to be made welcome though if people feel they are taking the mickey.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 3:56pm
At one of my clubs we have a £60 Duty Levy. 
Every duty that you undertake rewards you by £15 per half day. Though you can, really, only volunteer for a whole day - £30 back.
However, the only limit to what you can earn back is "No more than your club fees, including boat berths" ...so, if you did 10 full-day duties, you'd earn yourself £300 :-)

I, generally, do 4 days a year. It's no great shakes to manage that to be honest and I earn £120 for next seasons fees.




-------------
Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), RS600 'Soho Sally'(749), Intl 420 ('Little Minx'), Dart15 'Sparkie' (443)


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 5:06pm
So a typical CASC sailing club can charge £520pa without needing to make any "affordability" arrangements. Minus perhaps the cost of a BA once every few years if they are compulsory. That's not very limiting for most volunteer run dinghy clubs.

-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 7:42pm
That's per person, I assume, so family membership would be far higher to be an issue. Maybe posh yacht clubs might get there, but they are likely not CASC.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 8:00pm
Competancy is a bit of an issue.. Last season highlighted it for me, I always assume folk know what they're about and I had a bit of a wake up call early last season. So it's all very well getting volunteers, but sea capable, especially if there's a bit of a sea running, so we turned it around by running some half decent power/safety boat courses. So it can be a bit of a break from the mundane, rescue boat duty, but given some of the incidents include removing Hornets who want to park on the rocks, to towing in becalmed boats against the tide, so we can call on none racers from other club members, but it involves probably a higher level of training than you might have to give for inland water. Especially when even the allegedly highly trained inshore rescue mob often come to grief. As to getting volunteers that do know how to do it, to actually step up, extreme ironic abuse is often levelled at the fairweather types, there isn't really any other way, if you offered a buyout we'd have no-one.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 8:24pm
To be fair some people are not capable of doing the more technical duties, so you have to give them something they can do, myself for instance, I can't drive safety boat on medical grounds, I can run all aspects of club and racing when I am OOD, that's what I do.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 9:59pm
This looks pretty comprehensive.
https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/features/item/a-guide-to-complying-with-uk-tax-obligations-for-community-and-amateur-sports-clubs


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 22 Jan 19 at 7:47am
Looks very useful, thanks!

-------------
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Jan 19 at 7:38pm
Very sobering read, perhaps some of the events mentioned in report are partially responsible for drop off in volunteer numbers.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Jan 19 at 5:24pm
Some thoughts;

Can you rationalize the number of people required to do duties to a minimum, for instance on a small lake with small fleets noe person could do the Race Officer and Flags Duty, especially if you could incorporate some automation.

In my club, there is a tendency to take on more and more events, but rely on the same pool of volunteers, I would advise against this or risk volunteer fatigue.  In fact I would advise tailoring the number of races to match the available number of volunteers.

Doing duties is an intrinsic part of the sport, you can usually do a duty that suits you, and can be a useful learning process.



-------------
Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Jan 19 at 5:36pm
Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 24 Jan 19 at 7:27pm
Here in rural Oxfordshire, we addressed this by dividing up the duties. If you race, you do race duty or patrol boat, social/swimmers/others get the option of cooking lunch on a Sunday, or doing manual labour at work parties. Outcome? We get pretty much full race teams, superb Sunday lunches and loads of people happy to get wet and muddy on the winter work parties. Plus a few specialist roles. Give members the opportunity to do what they are happy with, and they will generally do it.

I'm happy to be OOD, I love the work parties (got a chainsaw!) and I have done galley in the past


-------------
Stewart



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com