Print Page | Close Window

Job description

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13244
Printed Date: 23 Nov 19 at 2:13am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Job description
Posted By: Rupert
Subject: Job description
Date Posted: 09 Jan 19 at 6:54pm
For someone making big decisions on the future of our sport:

Although not essential, an interest in boating or sport would be beneficial

Really?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jan 19 at 7:12pm
Well, I suppose you could argue that the RYAs mission is so wide that almost no-one is going to be interested in all of it, so logically it shouldn't be too much of an issue if they don't have an interest in any of it. A demonstrable lack of bias for racing against cruising, engines against sails etc isn't altogether a bad thing either. I don't think I'd regard it as a problem if an accountant wasn't interested in the organisation's mission, so long as they were a good accountant. Is the same true of a Director of Strategy?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Jan 19 at 7:34pm
I would add that someone with no interest in any form of boating would be an asset.


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 09 Jan 19 at 9:45pm
Can somebody explain what exactly is being discussed here?




Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Jan 19 at 10:11pm
On the front page of Y&Y, RYA looking for a director of strategy.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 09 Jan 19 at 10:17pm
It is like putting Gove in charge of education or Hunt the NHS. 

As long as they are good strategic thinkers knowledge or experience is not necessarily required. 

What could possibly go wrong. 

Putting a non Sailor in charge of World Sailing has worked out brilliantly. 


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 9:29am

"The Director of Strategy will be responsible for providing overall strategic leadership, with a particular focus on the following cross-functional areas: 

Strategic Planning owning the 4-yearly cyclical process of creating the RYA Strategic Plan...…..." 

It's not clear to me if the Director of Strategy decides on Strategy or if he/she directs its implementation once it has been decided.

If it is implementation only the RYA  need a good Technician who can come from anywhere as long as they have a proven appropriate  track record. Interest in sailing and boating is not so important.

So does the Director decide strategy as well as implement it?



-------------
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Alpha 220PR


Posted By: Joshua
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 9:32am
They clearly don't expect a "blue skies" approach as the first bullet point in the job description is 

"Strategic Planning owning the 4-yearly cyclical process of creating the RYA Strategic Plan"

Now what comes round every four years, I wonder ??


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 9:59am
I have applied for this position, I used to work in a brewery as party organiser, I was quite good


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Old Timer

 

What could possibly go wrong. 

Putting a non Sailor in charge of World Sailing has worked out brilliantly. 
 

Question - if the specific individual you refer to who's 'in charge of World Sailing' was a sailor do you really think it would have made any difference?  Just a thought Wink


-------------
Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 12:06pm
If the person is not a sailor, how will they really understand the grass roots sailors and their needs and desires?  How would they apply a plan?

Similarly, running a sporting body would be fairly specialised. There's a fair bit of information in academic studies about sports participation, for example, that anyone involved in strategy should surely know about.




-------------
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 12:10pm
As far as I can see the RYA have never had the remotest interest in the grass roots Confused

Not saying there aren't good people in the organisation just that the the 'ivory towers' are so far removed that it all seems to get lost in translation.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

If the person is not a sailor, how will they really understand the grass roots sailors and their needs and desires?

Well, that's sounds good, until you consider that by that logic they also need to be a cruiser, a powerboater, a potterer in canals, and all the other things the RYA represents.

I was once at the RYA and happened to pick up an internal phone directory, and it was instructive how varied the work of the RYAs staff is. There really aren't that many, outside the ring fenced externally funded Olympic/squad staff, who are involved with dinghy racing for instance.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 1:09pm
As a long time dinghy sailor, I have cruised the waterways, driven powerboats, sailed/raced windsurfers, paddled kayaks, owned and sailed a small keelboat and sailed and raced dinghies. All at the 'grass roots' of the sport. I'm sure that kind experience would be useful (personally I would say that some experience in, at least, a couple of areas would be essential) to someone attempting to plan 'strategy' for the development of the sport. If you have no experience of the 'grass roots' of a sport how can you possible build a meaningful 'strategy' for developing that sport?

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 1:43pm
Having sat on the RYA Technical Committee for six years a while back, the awkward question I liked to ask was “how does this benefit RYA members” ...

IMO the problem the RYA has is that it is a very beurocratic organisation and some of its operatives are quite (inadvertently) institutionalised.  


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 3:34pm
I think the problems begin when you start applying business practices to organisations like the RYA. The 'make a profit for the shareholders' mindset goes contrary to the aims of such an organisation (and, as an unattractive side effect, you often also get a 'win at all costs' culture developing).  People running a, predominantly amateur, sport like sailing need to have an emotional investment in the sport itself, numbers on a spreadsheet just don't hack it. 

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by rodney

Originally posted by Old Timer

 

What could possibly go wrong. 

Putting a non Sailor in charge of World Sailing has worked out brilliantly. 
 

Question - if the specific individual you refer to who's 'in charge of World Sailing' was a sailor do you really think it would have made any difference?  Just a thought Wink

Maybe he would have understood more about the Olympic slate. 


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 6:51pm
Joshua makes an interesting point:

Is owning the plan the same as creating it?

Who/which committee actually decides on RYA strategy?



-------------
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Alpha 220PR


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Riv

Joshua makes an interesting point:

Is owning the plan the same as creating it?

Who knows, it's just corporate-speak gobbledygook Confused


 Who/which committee actually decides on RYA strategy?


Likewise, who knows.....


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Jan 19 at 7:45pm
I looked at that job spec and thought, well I could do that, then I remembered the 'committee' nature anything to do with the RYA was like and I doubt it's changed much. It would be like wading through treacle trying to get anything like a sensible strategy approved and I think so much has happened to corporatise the place, so many paid jobsworths rather than the unpaid volunteers that used to hold sway. It's beyond the help of any one individual however talented or visionary.
The RYA is f**ked, proper f**ked to use the vernacula and that job would be mission impossible in todays climate.



-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Jan 19 at 4:50am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249

If the person is not a sailor, how will they really understand the grass roots sailors and their needs and desires?

Well, that's sounds good, until you consider that by that logic they also need to be a cruiser, a powerboater, a potterer in canals, and all the other things the RYA represents.

I was once at the RYA and happened to pick up an internal phone directory, and it was instructive how varied the work of the RYAs staff is. There really aren't that many, outside the ring fenced externally funded Olympic/squad staff, who are involved with dinghy racing for instance.

The RYA put the most popular three areas of member interest as yacht cruising and dinghy racing (40,000 and 12,000 members respectively) and motor boating (15,000) so there seems likely to be a fairly solid majority of sailors.

I'd also think it's likely that, as Sam says, if you are active in any one area you are more likely to recognise the importance of grass roots activity in other areas of boating than if you came from a completely different background.



-------------
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 11 Jan 19 at 6:24pm
A "strategist" does not necessarily need to know the base level of the sport (or business). Strategy is at a much broader level than the detail that you all describe. Strategists can draw on people who have the detail and grass roots expertise, but not need to have direct exposure to it. This is why, very often, and especially so in business, it is quite common for these types of roles to be fulfilled by people who have little exposure to that particular space. Their expertise is driving a concept wider than that. One of the problems of promoting someone from the grass roots dinghy/yachting/motor boating arena is that they will have their own ideas entrenched in traditional thinking. To use a term I hate, people who think "out of the box" are what is often required for this type of role. So dont dismiss anyone who comes from "outside". Great if someone has the sport experience and is a strategist, but it isnt always the case or necessarily desired.

-------------
Chris


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Jan 19 at 6:42pm
Would be interesting to know how they will measure their success, might not be increased participation across boating, could be maintaining financial stability with reducing participation.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 19 at 9:18pm
This ^ is what happens when you bring commerce into the running of sport....

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by ttc546

A "strategist" does not necessarily need to know the base level of the sport (or business). Strategy is at a much broader level than the detail that you all describe. Strategists can draw on people who have the detail and grass roots expertise, but not need to have direct exposure to it. This is why, very often, and especially so in business, it is quite common for these types of roles to be fulfilled by people who have little exposure to that particular space. Their expertise is driving a concept wider than that. One of the problems of promoting someone from the grass roots dinghy/yachting/motor boating arena is that they will have their own ideas entrenched in traditional thinking. To use a term I hate, people who think "out of the box" are what is often required for this type of role. So dont dismiss anyone who comes from "outside". Great if someone has the sport experience and is a strategist, but it isnt always the case or necessarily desired.

An excellent point, well made.  Expertise is far more important than hobbies in this case IMO.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 2:04pm
To me that is the whole point, bringing business practices into running amateur sport is, almost universally, a very bad thing, taking part becomes more expensive, volunteering stops being part of the culture and participation declines. For the vast majority of those who matter sailing is a hobby and not a business.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 3:59pm
It doesn't say it has to be their hobby, it simply mentions a passing interest, and how that might be vaguely beneficial.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by getafix


Originally posted by ttc546


A "strategist" does not necessarily need to know the base level of the sport (or business). Strategy is at a much broader level than the detail that you all describe. Strategists can draw on people who have the detail and grass roots expertise, but not need to have direct exposure to it. This is why, very often, and especially so in business, it is quite common for these types of roles to be fulfilled by people who have little exposure to that particular space. Their expertise is driving a concept wider than that. One of the problems of promoting someone from the grass roots dinghy/yachting/motor boating arena is that they will have their own ideas entrenched in traditional thinking. To use a term I hate, people who think "out of the box" are what is often required for this type of role. So dont dismiss anyone who comes from "outside". Great if someone has the sport experience and is a strategist, but it isnt always the case or necessarily desired.

An excellent point, well made.  Expertise is far more important than hobbies in this case IMO.

As true as this maybe in the real world of commerce, time and again it's proven the corporate rules and governance when applied to niche sectors result in horrendous failure, I could site brand after brand where this has occurred. Like it or not we are a niche activity and to create an ongoing strategy for something as tiny as the RYA in the greater scheme of things, that strategist at least has to have his or her feet in that world.

They've missed several opportunities recently, Kitesport, Stand Up Paddlesport to name two that could have benefitted both parties and half the reason for that is their previous failure to keep the hearts and minds of previous sports in that sector.

The RYA strategy should be all things water related if they wish to continue to act as the placebo in place of whitehall meddling.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

To me that is the whole point, bringing business practices into running amateur sport is, almost universally, a very bad thing, taking part becomes more expensive, volunteering stops being part of the culture and participation declines. For the vast majority of those who matter sailing is a hobby and not a business.

We are long gone being an amateur, hobbyist Corinthian sport. Yes, it exists at club levels, but not at the higher levels of yachting, Olympics and other areas. Our august governing body needs to cater for both, and that means being professional, commercial and business-like. Sailing (and related nautical activities) requires professionals with business skills - not hobbyists anymore. If you dont think its now a business at many levels, you are dreaming of past glories of the 70's 

We need to grow up. Stop being amateur. Other activities are competing for our leisure time and that means we need to be more aggressive and business-like.

Our governing body needs business professionals who understand how to take something small and make it great again - not hobbyists with limited realm and knowledge. We will die (as a sport) otherwise. 




-------------
Chris


Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 5:13pm
Sailing is not niche. There are very few niches. Ask a man at the bus stop what sailing is and he can describe it quite accurately. The game is in making more people get experience of sailing - normally they can achieve this close to home, and to then get them to committing to returning. There is no point marketing the sport to those who do it regularly, we should be seeking to broaden the appeal. There are more people to chase who have not done the sport than those that already have.

A\the sport could clearly benefit from an external perspective, as could the non-sporting aspects. It is easy to forget that the RYA is the authority for sport and recreational boating in the UK. Maybe they should be separate, but they are not.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 5:18pm
We will die exactly because the grass roots sailors will stop turning up and helping run clubs, clubs will become businesses and costs will skyrocket, success will be measured in wins and profits not participation.

I stopped my occasional forays onto the national Raceboard circuit when the UKBSA merged with the BFA, farmed out the running to a corporate enterprise, doubled the entry fees overnight and then left the RB sailors standing on the shore in perfectly decent conditions 'cos the Formula Windsurfing hotshots had a minimum wind speed..........

Hopefully there will be pockets of resistance in my local clubs long enough for me to reach an age where it all becomes of academic interest.....


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 5:23pm
There are way, way too many clubs trying to support way, way, too few sailors. Something has to give. Rationalisation WILL happen. It NEEDS to happen. Corinthian clubs will always exist, but in todays world, it will be the minority. Tiz sad, but tiz the way of the NEW world. 

My own area of sailing area has WAY TOO MANY clubs competing for the same audience. It cant go on. The rose tinted specs of yester-year need to come off.

Hence the need for a Strategist with business experience


-------------
Chris


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 5:33pm
@giraffe probably has the nub of it, we need to attract more non-sailors into the sport, who knows if a corporate approach can do that without alienating existing sailors. I do agree about too many clubs chasing too few racers but, given that probably only 10% of sailors race regularly maybe that is actually not the issue........

With that and the Brexit fiasco it's enough to drive a man to drink........ Now where's that corkscrew......


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 5:42pm
My club is tiny only 35 active members, we run racing Saturday and Thursday, we are a RYA training centre, a lot of members are also members of other clubs, we are not going to close our successful small well run well funded club.


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 5:43pm
Did anyone say that it would? 

-------------
Chris


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by 423zero

My club is tiny only 35 active members, we run racing Saturday and Thursday, we are a RYA training centre, a lot of members are also members of other clubs, we are not going to close our successful small well run well funded club.

Yeah. sorry, worded that badly, I wouldn't advocate any club that has enough members to continue to close or merge, I love my small holiday club, it has much to commend it. But it's inevitable, if the sport declines, that some clubs will be unable to maintain critical mass and will fall by the lakeside......


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by ttc546

My own area of sailing area has WAY TOO MANY clubs competing for the same audience. It cant go on. The rose tinted specs of yester-year need to come off.

Do the potential sailors find the clubs or do the clubs generate the sailors?

If the former, then you are correct, but it could be that lots of little clubs are at the base of a pyramid that find and develop new participants.




-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 8:18pm
Often there are several clubs in an area because each one has limited space. It often turns out that each club attracts a different set of people, too. So, lose a club, you may often lose many of the people from that club entirely.

To me, it is just a rerun of the "too many classes" nonsense spouted by people who don't like individuality, and don't really "get" that a particular niche boat is why someone was attracted to sailing in the first place.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by ttc546

There are way, way too many clubs trying to support way, way, too few sailors. Something has to give. Rationalisation WILL happen. It NEEDS to happen. Corinthian clubs will always exist, but in todays world, it will be the minority. Tiz sad, but tiz the way of the NEW world. 

My own area of sailing area has WAY TOO MANY clubs competing for the same audience. It cant go on. The rose tinted specs of yester-year need to come off.

Hence the need for a Strategist with business experience

Where's the evidence that Corinthian clubs will be in the minority?




-------------
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 8:35pm
Meanwhile, here in rural Oxfordshire, our membership is full, and the waiting list has a waiting list...Happy days.

-------------
Stewart


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 8:56pm
My 'Home' club has space for more boats/members during the 'season' but the winter series is usually fully subscribed with all spare berths occupied and he changing facilities maxed out.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 9:13pm
This topic is about the Strategy post at our governing body

All your small clubs and needs and individual wants are just a tiny piece of the huge jigsaw puzzle. The incredibly tiny minority who typically post here (12 at most) represent bugger all.

Think the bigger picture, not of yourselves.


-------------
Chris


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 9:47pm
The bigger picture is water users..and whatever you think they number less than a couple of stadiums full of football fans... Niche.

Niche rules apply.

Corporate rules require corporate volumes, volumes of revenue, income stream and last I looked they don't have enough, try a corporate rules acid test, i.e. remove Olympic funding then see how far up that creek they'll be without a strategic paddle.


-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by ttc546

This topic is about the Strategy post at our governing body

All your small clubs and needs and individual wants are just a tiny piece of the huge jigsaw puzzle. The incredibly tiny minority who typically post here (12 at most) represent bugger all.

Think the bigger picture, not of yourselves.

Given that Y&Y has historically been the vehicle to promote sailboat racing in the UK with an emphasis on Clubs and Classes, then I can’t see what is wrong with the direction of travel.  A forum is merely a substitute for bar chat ... in this case between twelve curmudgeon who no doubt long for the glory days of the late 70’s.  

In all my time posting on this site, I have never thought that anyone takes a blind bit of notice, though I have learned a few things along the way that makes me more open minded to other people’s perspectives.

My concern is that any strategic planning on the part of the RYA May focus on its own empire building and not on the sport of dinghy racing for which I have a particular interest.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 10:54pm
A quick bit of mental arithmetic against the 2017 participation survey (https://www.pbo.co.uk/news/boating-watersports-seven-year-high-52066) suggests that water activities that fall under the RYA banner had something in excess of 1.5m participants, so that's quite a football stadium...


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 10:56pm
Well, I sort of think that it depends on which way the strategic planning is approached. And I guess the successful person might have a say in this. If its top-down...well I guess we get more of the same. If its grassroots-up, then we may get something more relevant to most of us on this forum (and beyond). All we can do is speculate. Most of the major sports, and I'm talking the likes of golf, tennis, cricket, rugby, and yes, even kickers of round balls, are worried about grassroots participation. What should that strategic planning look like for dinghy sailing? And what is our USP (just thought I'd add that in)?


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 11:22pm
The recent RYA webinars related to the future of sailing, identifying social trends and what clubs should do to retain membership (and hence racing), look to me like clear strategy to help small sailing clubs and the small boat sailor in the longer term.   


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 13 Jan 19 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by ttc546



Think the bigger picture, not of yourselves.

The "12 regular posters" include someone who has outstanding information on what people are sailing through their PY work; someone who has been in the industry for 35 or so years; and someone who has been tracing worldwide trends in sailing participation for years.  Others here are very successful in other areas, such as training and building or rebuilding classes.
In other words, many of the people here are very, very aware of the bigger picture.

My other sport was run by a strategic management consultancy for some time. It was a disaster. The grass roots clubs and taxpayers were left with a multi-million dollar debt, and little else to show for the episode.

I've had a look at the curriculum for various degrees in sports administration. It's very apparent that the issues of grass roots participant sports are largely overlooked. If university business schools ignore that sort of complex issue, and a lot of other aspects such as SCOT (Social Construction of Technology) then isn't it reasonable to be concerned that their graduates may also ignore relevant and major issues?


-------------
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Jan 19 at 7:12am
It would appear that upward trend of obesity matches trend of decline across general sports participation, so perhaps a multi sports platform committee needs to be looked at ?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jan 19 at 7:38am
Rereading the advert, I fit the credentials of having an interest in boating in all its aspects, and in sport in general. I fit none of the others. I just hope that the successful candidate has my love of boating and sport, welded to an excellent, analytical mind. Many sailors out there have those skills (chess on the water, after all), and can transfer them to an office environment.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 14 Jan 19 at 9:16am
Originally posted by ttc546

We are long gone being an amateur, hobbyist Corinthian sport. Yes, it exists at club levels, but not at the higher levels of yachting, Olympics and other areas. Our august governing body needs to cater for both, and that means being professional, commercial and business-like. Sailing (and related nautical activities) requires professionals with business skills - not hobbyists anymore. If you dont think its now a business at many levels, you are dreaming of past glories of the 70's 

We need to grow up. Stop being amateur. Other activities are competing for our leisure time and that means we need to be more aggressive and business-like.

I think that depends on perspective. For the vast majority of sailors in the UK local, mostly volunteer run, clubs and class events are where it happens and what interests them. I have a bit of interest in Olympic sailing, major offshore events etc, but it's a mild interest. Sailing is getting out there and doing it, and working with others in my club to make it happen.

You are right that the RYA has to cater for both, and there's no doubt their increasingly professional approach has benefited the UK's Olympic sailing performance. But, I see that role as secondary to building up and supporting grassroots sailing, most of which is, and will remain, corinthian. I wouldn't argue that the RYA doesn't support that side of sailing at present, but I would say that should be the priority, and I don't think "stopping being amateur" is the way forward. The way forward is to support the amateurs who represent the vast majority of sailing, and the organisation of sailing, in the UK


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 7:39am
I was in the uni library today and quickly grabbed a sports management textbook. A quick flick confirmed once again how the would-be pros are taught to think. The contents were largely about things like staff management and professionalism. For example, there was a chapter about the upsurge in Australian Rules Football, complete with year-by-year stats for over a decade - but the stats referred only to (non playing) club membership and paid stadium attendance.  The actual participants and the volunteers who make it all happen didn't rate a mention.

When the people who specialise in sports management have that sort of attitude, why would a generalist manager/strategist be any better? 


-------------
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 8:14am
Originally posted by Chris 249

When the people who specialise in sports management have that sort of attitude, why would a generalist manager/strategist be any better? 

Maybe BECAUSE they might NOT come from that background and entrenched way of thinking and therefore have a different perspective?

Maybe they MIGHT have that sports background, and lets hope they still have a different perspective and less entrenched views. Just requires maybe fresh blood to reinvigorate and refresh current ways of doing things that appear to not meet the approval of the old curmudgeons  ;-).

The new person might even ask the youngsters what THEY want, what THEY see as as future direction and barriers to overcome, and let the curmudgeons breathe their last gasp remembering halcyon days they dont seem to understand will never come back.




-------------
Chris


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 8:59am
Yes, they may not have an entrenched background but the balance of evidence I can see indicates that those who "drop in" to a sport, whether as a sports economist, a sports historian or sports manager, do normally concentrate on the elite. 

I'm fairly sure that many people at clubs and running junior classes have spent a lot of time asking young people what they want.

Sailing has been trying new ways doing things at a fairly furious rate, compared to the other sports I know. It has promoted canting keel boats, water ballasted boats, foilers, skiffs and sportsboats in a rush of technology that is not equalled by any sport I know. It has a very high level of gender balance in the major event controlled by World Sailing. It has changed Olympic events more over the last 30 or so years than any other sport I can think of - only two classes (M new 470) survive from the 1992 Games. 

It's hard to find any true evidence that sailing is held back by entrenched views. In fact given the repeated failure of much-hyped "revolutions" to catch hold, the issue may partly be that people who don't actually sail much are spending too much time disparaging the grass roots activities and hyping impractical ones for the sake of being cool. 




-------------
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 9:27am
In another place yesterday I spotted a post from a young woman student bemoaning the lack of political education at her school. Loads of people were jumping on the bandwagon saying yes lets have 'politics' classes at secondary school. I despair Angry the school curriculum (and day to day life) is riddled with politics, it's called History, Geography, Economics, PSE and many other subjects.

The relevance of this to our discussion becomes evident when we look at when UK politics, basically, drifted away from a (relatively) consensual system and became the spin ridden self serving place it is now. The problem was teaching people to be polititians in university. The last thing we need running the country is someone whose whole life experience consists of :- school, university, political researcher, campaign manager and, ultimately, MP. Political activists need to be passionate about the issue but the current crop are, mostly, not even passionate about politics...

For our sport to survive we need people running it who are passionate about boats not people who are passionate about business strategy. Sure some business strategy is useful but 'passionate about boats' is not negotiable IMO.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 10:17am

Such moves and tendencies appear to be growing across many fields..  The seeming distain by some for ‘experts’ in many fields with pre-existing insight and experience in  specialist, niche or complex areas or sectors is frankly worrying.  That specialist sector experience should ever somehow disqualify individuals from key roles in the modern, increasingly bureaucratic, world is alarming.   The recruiters and myriad of consultants that increasingly litter public life would of course argue for the ‘gifted generalist’ .... well of course they would.    

There is a necessary balance between ‘generalist’ skills and sector specific experience and skills ... you would hope.  Disregard, by-pass and ignore the ‘experts’ if you don’t like or agree with what they might say – but then you must really take full responsibility for that decision if things then don’t work out quite as hoped or promised.

In 2019 they very often will not .... !



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 6:55pm
The way I would hope it would work would be that each department of the RYA would bring their specialist knowledge and experience to the table, and the strategist would be able to balance needs, requirements, budgets etc to put together the whole. At least that's how it would work with a properly functional management team. Of course there are such things as dysfunctional management teams...

The biggest problem IME is if you get a management team that thinks the specialists are too junior to listen to...


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by JimC

The way I would hope it would work would be that each department of the RYA would bring their specialist knowledge and experience to the table, and the strategist would be able to balance needs, requirements, budgets etc to put together the whole. At least that's how it would work with a properly functional management team. Of course there are such things as dysfunctional management teams...

Zackly! At last. someone who gets that each person brings their own expertise to the table.


-------------
Chris


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by ttc546


Originally posted by JimC

The way I would hope it would work would be that each department of the RYA would bring their specialist knowledge and experience to the table, and the strategist would be able to balance needs, requirements, budgets etc to put together the whole. At least that's how it would work with a properly functional management team. Of course there are such things as dysfunctional management teams...

Zackly! At last. someone who gets that each person brings their own expertise to the table.


And the person sitting at the table should be interested in the stuff they are talking about! Even have a modicum of understanding of the subject matter, to better form strategy.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 8:40am
We had a mantra handed down from a commercial culture guru / management whizzo a zillion years ago: Decisions should be taken by someone who is a) interested; b) competent; c) qualified. b & c can be confused, but qualified - in this context - really means having the authority to take the decision.

-------------
Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 10:17am
The difference used to be, in business mistakes get punished, even that doesn't seem to happen these days at corporate and boardroom level, with massive bonuses being issued for failure. This then mirrored in the Public Sector with top earners rewarded come what may, often with golden hand shake payments to say goodbye, then re hired as 'consultants' later. The point of this diatribe? Professionalism at high level does not necessarily equal success, particularly where stakeholders, shareholders, or taxpayers, are footing the bill, it's simply put, high earnings for the boys. Do we want our Governing body to continue down this route? Probably not.

The problem they have, is their income stream is from members and Government sports funding, linked to the Olympics and as I once said to the owner of a particular boat building business exposed to Olympic classes they should have a strategy that at the very least acid tests that disappearing and be developing a plan B, which is us.

Us being multi role water users, once upon a time I couldn't really get by without being an RYA member, now I cheerfully and quite deliberately am not. They have incensed, outraged and disappointed me in equal measure over the years and I dare say I'm not alone, so, first call i would have thought would be to find out why that is.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 4:35pm
I am with iGRF, I was a member but cancelled when the RYA refused to support Thames Sailing Club when a marina was being developed on their patch because by doing so it would be against the interests of powerboaters.  

I also take comfort that my Club and Class Association by a fair wack on my behalf.   I doubt that Graeme and I not being members worries them too much, and I doubt that they will alter their offer to reengage with me.

I have first hand experiences of their committees and nothing convinces me that it’s direction of travel is the right one.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 7:49pm
It's not only that, it's the fact that people like me could and would have helped them back in the day and didn't even ask for expenses remunerated.

I may be an irritating troll in this environment, but the real world experience I have and am still engaged in would be invaluable in formulating a strategy that would help them cope with the next ten years.

But there is no longer a mechanism, via a committee or meeting route whereby they could be even approached. Corporate rules would rather expend vast sums on equally inexperienced out of touch 'consultancys'. Employees would rather protect their own shallow competencies than expose themselves to the harsh light of market realism. It is an impossible situation, they have a destiny to continue to fail, and fail big, it makes me weep thinking about the myriad ways in which they are failing.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 9:41pm
My experience of the RYA, despite this as, has been very positive. From advice on law to the training I've received to be an instructor, the people I have met who work in the regions and for Sailability, who have the exact interest in the sport and its people which seems unimportant here.
The instructor days, the workshops at conferences, all run by enthusiastic, knowledgeable people, from Amanda VS down.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 10:48pm
I’ve got to say that I’m with Rupert in terms of my personal experience. That’s not to say that I think they’re doing everything right - (all IMHO) I think there’s too much short-term thinking in the Youth, Junior and PP Squad stystem that has already lead to a lack of depth in quality in across the top Squads and I think they do a particularly poor job of communicating what they actually do to the wider water sports community, that perpetuates the opinions expressed I this thread.

If you’re part of a proactive Club that engages with the RYA, I suspect that you’ll have a more positive view of the organisation.

-------------
Finn GBR88 Gruffalo, Europe 185, Europe 252 Fizzer
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cameron-Tweedle-Sailing/816713278339694" rel="nofollow - Cameron Tweedle Sailing (Facebook)


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 11:23pm
They dump the kids, right at the moment they are forming decisions as to what to do with their life and leisure.
Certainly in windsurfing hence Team fifteen, there is no team sixteen. No idea what goes on in dinghys but I don't see anything structured for 18-30's

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Jan 19 at 11:44pm
Nowt wrong with the people down at the grass roots (or those directly supporting them) but iGRFs T15 comment strikes a chord. I raced D1 and Raceboards pretty seriously for nearly 30 years and even at local level the RYA guys kept the T15 kids away from our regional, adult, race circuit so they never had a natural progression when T15 threw them out...... I know of one serious T15 sailor who was, luckily for her, taken under the wing of a local RB hotshot and went on to win a World RB championship. What she would have done if she hadn't been introduced to Raceboards is anybodys guess (but I'd lay good odds it wouldn't have involved any kind of sailing).

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 17 Jan 19 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by iGRF

They dump the kids, right at the moment they are forming decisions as to what to do with their life and leisure.
Certainly in windsurfing hence Team fifteen, there is no team sixteen. No idea what goes on in dinghys but I don't see anything structured for 18-30's

few and far between are doing anything for that age group in sailing, even clubs that are proactive get stuck in draconian rules and sub-committees whilst trying to work out solutions and by the time they start moving on it it's all change again with new bods coming in to management and it gets churned over again.

if you want the top of the pyramid to be more active on that front then it starts with the clubs, clubs in turn need to have a major shake up with their own structure and practices.


-------------
https://www.facebook.com/OJSPhoto" rel="nofollow - OJSPhotography
https://www.youtube.com/ojsphotography/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 868
Marconi SC


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 7:20am
Where Word Sailing lead, the RYA will follow?
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/213838/Setting-a-new-sustainability-standard" rel="nofollow - Corporatism in all its glory?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 2:40pm
What by 'eck are the 8 pillars of impact?

Sounds like Finn sailors having a bar fight.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 2:56pm
Think it's a 'descriptive' term for 'Bar graphs'


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 8:28pm
No, it's a descriptive term for "b**locks". Management gobbledygook at it's worst. Angry

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Jan 19 at 9:48pm
You have just added to one of the pillars engaging with people


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 7:52am
Googling it, a organisation called Geneva global use 8 pillars of impact to try and end world hunger.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 9:41am
Originally posted by 423zero

You have just added to one of the pillars engaging with people

Big smileBig smileBig smile Yup, I am one of the good old "eight pillocks of wisdom" LOL


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 11:38am
It depends on your audience, doesn't it. If the most important audience for your document lives and breathes management b*****s speak then you need to use it, otherwise they won't take the document seriously.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 11:47am
True Jim, but that's more an inditement of those kinds of people than a favourable argument for corporate bu115hit Sick

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by JimC

It depends on your audience, doesn't it. If the most important audience for your document lives and breathes management b*****s speak then you need to use it, otherwise they won't take the document seriously.

Too true and often what I've had to focus on in strategy roles is the appropriate lingo. The reason some of the b******s is actually needed is that the on the ground language comes with too much baggage that means it is not interpreted in the right spirit. The onus is on the strategy person to articulate what the b*******s actually means and that is what is usually missed out - leading to everyone thinking of it as b******s.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 12:33pm
Besides, as sailors we are in no position to criticise other folk about technical jargon!!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 12:58pm
That's definitely true Big smile

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Jan 19 at 1:17pm
I was very impressed with you.gov and the way it has put across CASC regulations, campaign for plain English clearly taken to heart, well done to authors



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com