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TruSail: training analytics

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13243
Printed Date: 18 Sep 19 at 5:14am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: TruSail: training analytics
Posted By: mozzy
Subject: TruSail: training analytics
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 4:39pm
https://www.facebook.com/TruSail/" rel="nofollow - Seems a very decent unit... more for sailing associations, pro-coaches and pro-sailors at the it's price-point. 

A lot of the analytics will have been used in racing yachts for long time, with many being used right down to amateur weekend warriors (except sail loading?). But, these things are very hard to measure on a dinghy where you need a light weight and small unit. 

There's very little in the way on usable data for the average sailor. GPS overlay will give you rough speed and where you went, but no where near the resolution to give you decent feedback on a tuning run, which you'd have to do solely on perception. Nearest thing you can get is a action camera to review, but it's not analytical. 

Power-meters in cycling became a massive thing, even with non-racers over the last 5 years. Could you see the same thing happening with units like these?

For heel, sheeting angles, tiller angle, leech loading and 1/10th second resolution GPS positional data I'd probably pay 500-1000£. My valuation is probably an order of magnitude off affording this system for now Cry

How much would you pay? 

[TUBE]https://youtu.be/dJi5qjqaamA[/TUBE]



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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144



Replies:
Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 4:59pm
I made a system about 5 years ago for a work application but used it for sailing too. Could log locally and also Bluetooth to a coach boat pitch, roll and heading and GPS location and speed. Was really interesting to analyse the data. Based on one of these (about £300) plus a GPS unit. http://x-io.co.uk/ngimu/" rel="nofollow - these AHRS

Adding in tiller angles, boom angles and leech tensions would be really great, but a pain to set up I expect.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 7:01pm
I just wish I had the smarts to put such a system together! 

I think heel is the number one thing Id like to get. You can get it with RaceQs app, but the GPS is rubbish on my phone, so the track doesn't end up that use able. Plus, for training I'd like a display on board, that you could see. 

Next I'd like tiller angle. 

Then all the GPS fine detail speed and acceleration.

I think the last priority would be sheet angles and leech tension. 


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 7:30pm
Heel and pitch (trim) are relatively easy, just a calibrated IMU. Tiller angle needs a magnetometer on the tiller and one on the boat, and synchronising between them. So more cost and hassle, but would be cool to see results.

See for example http://x-io.co.uk/open-source-imu-and-ahrs-algorithms/" rel="nofollow - this video (how do you post YouTube vids here?)


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 8:04pm
Would love a simple training device that pinged at you when you heel more than a given range from upright 

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 8:41pm
a pendulum inclinometer and a couple of magnetic reed switches would do that

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 9:28pm
Epoxy a tube with a marble inside it to the thwart. And then keep the marble in the middle...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 9:55pm
I use a caravan level
Image result for caravan level indicator



Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

a pendulum inclinometer and a couple of magnetic reed switches would do that

Sounds like a good idea, if I had the skills.  I have used a Silva inclinometer for practicing (not allowed for racing in a Solo), but I like the idea of a training device that makes a noise if outside a given range, so that I can concentrate on sail trim and sitting out.  When racing I check the puddle of water by the center board case.  In forty years I have been pretty hopeless at sailing upright.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Jan 19 at 10:26pm
Car battery, inclinator attached to reed switch... a couple of wires up the tiller extension... you'd soon learn to sail her flat!

I love the 'steampunk' solutions though, it's very dingy sailing!

I think what this does is allow you to compare real time to a boat next to you in the turning run and record data for later analysis. Plus, a big display is a must. 


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 08 Jan 19 at 6:00am
Iíve often thought it would be nice to have a heated tiller extension. Could kill two birds with one stone - warm hands if you keep it flat, a rude awakening if you donít!
I agree Mozzy. For example, how many people know how much speed they lose through a tack and how much that could be improved by optimising turn rate (tiller use), roll angle etc. It would be a great training tool for giving quantifiable feedback and improving consistency.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Jan 19 at 7:14am
Alexa tell me when I am not flat


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 08 Jan 19 at 8:11am
So do you actually think this would make you faster? Or is it a question of achieving training efficiency: getting to the 10000 hours mark earlier?


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 08 Jan 19 at 8:32am
My opinion is that only by measuring inputs and outputs you can a. Find the best technique b. Measure how well and consistently you apply that technique and c. Share that technique unambiguously with others. So yes, you could be faster and yes you could more quickly get 10000 useful hours of practice.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Jan 19 at 9:30am
I think it's a lot about training efficiency. Doing a two boat tuning run can take hundreds of iterations to have confidence in your findings. And conditions change so much it's hard to actually repeat the same tuning run twice. I don't think any amateurs do even a tenth of what is required to learn anything conclusive from this type of training (that's not say it isn't effective for other reasons). 

If you're lucky you'll have a coach following with a camera and from this you can start to see differences. But this feedback comes hours after the run was done, by which time you've lost that sensation of how it felt. To see on a display, or have headphones on and have a coach tell you what the immediate impact of your changes are would speed up the whole process immensely. 

So basically, it's more precise feedback on what you're doing and it's more timely. Which speeds up the learning process. 

But, like power meters on bikes, not only does it speed up learning, but it also could enable you to learn things which you couldn't have possibly known without the sensor. A few years with good data collection and the clever people will start seeing patterns which can tell you things about the known unknowns and even find the unknown unknowns. 

I wouldn't like this to become part of racing, I think that should be done on feel. But i'd love to use this stuff in training. 



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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 08 Jan 19 at 9:43am
I found the first time I put a camera facing aft on the boat so I could see horizon and transom bar really made me realise what I thought was flat wasn't. I now work much harder at that but bet I am still not flat 70% of the time.
Sailing in waves should you be flat to the water your on or flat to the horizon as a general rule?
My thought was to the water your on but thought I would check



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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 15 Jan 19 at 11:09am
Peters & Sterritt 49er Team

"Since November we have been training down in Vilamoura with the rest of the British 49er squad, testing and racing on the equipment we will be using at this years big Regatta's. We're excited to be using  https://www.facebook.com/TruSail/?__tn__=K-R&eid=ARB0y4vN1jDaXuVsYgbl__2EUv8Vmu1G-RiklPawS5p3pJnEnU5ppMu5Z4BPgQWQ_HRoB4wGD-5ZX4Xm&fref=mentions&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARAkI_-bxWzVc2yhuAkOLi72SQZL_SZRETX06D7kxGEMh4dF_YhNizwJtxAPzy2xLV8fmd_o9d_VYiE6ZlotQqSFHVlw3kB3m-Psa-kv2EhiGPFalWgi9wNYs5_nvQJLnRVDaJrO9JvoKgWnNvryu6LCArIshAUE1yH-vgxuMfyVZBZQiY0YecX1c-4j2eAMYj0ec3b8F4dNcyUA0XMgjxz73aI5ikC1xA3dj1E2FFchPL_xZH2vqG_PdxUJo-dIkKiS0DS0rWxvRGg-aqYn_4TzkGfEvOwg1Cn1nhB2oR7V7BAN2sW6sH5sT4YmDeS_EdWWP-iqcdAa-4K7sNoTuI8Nog0AsaW-rySh-oLRDqpuW21bG2IGKkw" rel="nofollow - Trusail 's telemetry system to really dive into the details of what it takes to make a 49er go fast. There is a huge amount that data can tell us and we'll be sharing some of our findings on here for those who are interested.

Up next is the Miami WC with the first race on the 29th of January. Looking forward to measuring ourselves against the rest of the World!"

https://www.facebook.com/tps49erracing/?__tn__=kC-R&eid=ARCjck7r6JgOiJjAP5JpXTPagv9-mKZ8UdtqL1U8mwEJFTGC0obsB3Hnsc_Nf_oMgQYXs4OmC3Fktk9O&hc_ref=ARSJTug-2F-gQzakNf7Ihq7lAXWjUF_mmyJF9tZWlnAzaK5XOUn2sYyE90d6glvkJPM&fref=nf&__xts__%5b0%5d=68.ARAkI_-bxWzVc2yhuAkOLi72SQZL_SZRETX06D7kxGEMh4dF_YhNizwJtxAPzy2xLV8fmd_o9d_VYiE6ZlotQqSFHVlw3kB3m-Psa-kv2EhiGPFalWgi9wNYs5_nvQJLnRVDaJrO9JvoKgWnNvryu6LCArIshAUE1yH-vgxuMfyVZBZQiY0YecX1c-4j2eAMYj0ec3b8F4dNcyUA0XMgjxz73aI5ikC1xA3dj1E2FFchPL_xZH2vqG_PdxUJo-dIkKiS0DS0rWxvRGg-aqYn_4TzkGfEvOwg1Cn1nhB2oR7V7BAN2sW6sH5sT4YmDeS_EdWWP-iqcdAa-4K7sNoTuI8Nog0AsaW-rySh-oLRDqpuW21bG2IGKkw" rel="nofollow - Facebook Page




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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: gonesailing
Date Posted: 22 Feb 19 at 10:25am
Hello!  I love cycling, powermeters and cycling software like Strava, Garmin Connect, etc.  I'd like to have advanced analytics for sailing too but I wasn't able to find anything.  So I made my own 1/10th second resolution GPS and purchased wind sensor with built-in inclinometer.  Now I'm working on software for data analysis.  If anybody has good ideas for it, I'll happy to listen :)


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 22 Feb 19 at 3:03pm
I worked on an inclinometer app two years ago, just testing an idea. I'd be interested to hear how you go on, and whether the results were able to be presented in a useful format.


Posted By: gonesailing
Date Posted: 23 Feb 19 at 7:31pm
I'm using my own track format.  It allows to store GPS coordinates, wind data and heeling angle in compact way.  App can export data in CSV format for applications like Excel.  I can publish native format description if you are interested.


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 23 Feb 19 at 9:39pm
It is the bit that happens in Excel (or wherever) that interests me. You've got a few thousand numbers representing heel angle... but how do you take those and actually interpret them to say "you didn't hike hard enough" or "you're getting better at keeping it flat".

What about all the times the app records a heel angle of ten degrees, but it was because you were mid-tack? You need to excuse those ones!


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Feb 19 at 11:26am
You'd have to link angle of heel to changes in direction, so a tack or big luff or bear away ( mark roundings, for instance) would be automatically excluded.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 24 Feb 19 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by MerlinMags

It is the bit that happens in Excel (or wherever) that interests me. You've got a few thousand numbers representing heel angle... but how do you take those and actually interpret them to say "you didn't hike hard enough" or "you're getting better at keeping it flat".

What about all the times the app records a heel angle of ten degrees, but it was because you were mid-tack? You need to excuse those ones!

Depends what you want to see. If you want second by second playback, then just some smoothing would do fine. 

If you're looking descriptive statistics for the whole sail then you'd have to do some filtering. You could filter out heel during heading changes pretty easy. But if you sailed with 5 degrees leeward heel all the time it would average out, so the mean might look better. I guess you'd want to show average difference from upright, you might not then know if that was windward or leeward heel.

How you'd filter downwind i'm not sure, because I'd guess your targets would be different for different points of sail. If you had AWA measured you could filter based on that to group data by point of sail perhaps?


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 25 Feb 19 at 3:27pm
I think it is going to end up too difficult. In theory all the ideas seem fine, then when faced with real data the ability to say "the boat was between 3 and 8 degrees heeled during this reaching leg" ends up impossible.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 25 Feb 19 at 6:30pm
You canít look at heel angle in isolation, out of context. So a single number answer wonít work. It needs to be viewed over time, in relation with heading, speed and ideally wind strength.


Posted By: gonesailing
Date Posted: 26 Feb 19 at 7:04am
It is not too hard to detect context during track analysis or in real time.  I'm working on tacks (and jibes) analytics like now.  Looks like it will be ready for testing soon.


Posted By: Pewit
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 3:18pm
I think the main issue is to have a readily understandable real-time display which gives you data you can take in quickly from the corner of your eye, given the number of other variables you need to be looking at.
I've experimented with iRegatta and RaceQs on both watch and mast-mounted mobile phone and found it too hard to be able to switch focus between the screen and telltales, boats, wind, waves etc. Post race analysis with video is useful (when augmented with the data) but real time feedback would be much more useful and accelerate the improvement process.



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