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Information on this Enterprise

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13223
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 1:20pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Information on this Enterprise
Posted By: tink
Subject: Information on this Enterprise
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 8:30am

I am wanting to start dinghy cruising after 40 years of racing. I want to go solo and camp on board occasionally. A light, easy to handle ashore boat is critical as I believe it will get much more use. I am moving from Co Durham to near the south coast so I see lots of trailer day sailing in new locations. 


I have researched extensively and think the Gull mark 1, 2 or 3 fits the bill. The more modern ones have been messed about with and camping on board may be hard. I considered a Mirror but find it physically cramped for my size. There are many bigger boats Wanderer etc but they start to get heavy.


People have used Enterprises with cut down sails very successfully and have looked at them but wanted to avoid buoyancy bags and not seen a GRP one that appealed until this weekend.



 I am particularly drawn to this design as it looks nice and simple and doesn’t appear to have any plywood. On this forum I have read above leaks in the tank to sole joint but feel happy to repair that if it develops.


So

  1. what is the name of this model / manufacturer 
  2. when where they built 
  3. are they all GRP or is there some hidden plywood - have seen GRP Enterprises with a plywood forward, I presume this doesn’t have this sort of construction 
  4. any issues with this type of enterprise 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com



Replies:
Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 10:03am
Jack Holt or Moores of Wroxham. Both built GRP E's in the 60's and 70's. Number 20,000 was approx. 1979/80, so any lower number is before that.
These were GRP boats, NOT FRP (which are much stronger and stiffer). These were boats designed to be built in plywood - large flat panels which are about the worse thing possible for GRP strength.
When you put the jib up, the centreboard slot will be squeezed together and you cant get the board up and down.
The sides will be flexible enough for you to feel them move when you push with your hand. Flexible sides and bottom panels mean that all the joints have to leak at some point! The buoyancy tanks will hold the boat up capsized or after filling for about 5 mins max, and after that they will become water filled and dangerous.
There is a reason why you don't see these around very much!


Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 10:05am
From the look of the jib tracks, I think that's an early Jack Holt, not a Moores boat.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 11:31am
where jib track bolts and shroud goes through there is a strip of wood under joint between rolled edge of topside and hull, easy to see, just look underneath, this wood rots and shroud pulls through taking a chunk of topside with it, so check the wood.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 4:13pm
Have you tried ‘camping’ in an ent ?

I’d have thought you’d need something wayfarer size to camp sensibly ?

Ent not that stable either



Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 4:44pm
Thanks Chris J. I had read about the centre board issue but your explanation of the cause is very good. Think I’ll hold out until a good Gull is available.

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 4:49pm
I suspect the OP won't be too worried by the relative instability of the Ent as he has an Int Canoe in his past Big smile

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 5:19pm
Bit worried how Sam Spoons knows about the IC

Rich96, no I haven’t camped on an Ent, people have using a smaller rig. The Ent was actually designed with two sets of sails one smaller for cruising. People camp on Mirrors, I am very much in the camp - the smaller the boat the more it gets used.


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Dangerousday
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 5:39pm
Browsing, as you do, theres a Laser 13 in the'dinghies and bits for sale' FB group. Furling jib, reefing main. No idea what it would be like to camp in though


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 8:15pm
Based on Chris J’s post I did a bit more digging and found this which is interesting if you skip the FRP nonsense 

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3617&PN=1&title=how-do-you-tell-a-frp-enterprise-from-a-g" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3617&PN=1&title=how-do-you-tell-a-frp-enterprise-from-a-g



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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 8:42pm
Enterprise was originally going to be GP mk2 the ultimate cruising boat, when you compare weight of Enterprise to GP14 you can understand why it's flexible, I owned one for years that looked identical to your photo, I donated it to club, still in use.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by tink

Bit worried how Sam Spoons knows about the IC

Rich96, no I haven’t camped on an Ent, people have using a smaller rig. The Ent was actually designed with two sets of sails one smaller for cruising. People camp on Mirrors, I am very much in the camp - the smaller the boat the more it gets used.

T'is on your web page, I read some of your blog a while ago and remembered you were into canoes of various kinds, went back for a check and came across the IC and  Iki Wa'a, again. Wink

As I have said before in this place, the Ent is a lovely boat.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 9:34pm
Sam Spoons - didn’t know anyone bothered reading that, I use it a bit like a diary 

One day I merge it with my other blog
http://proasail.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://proasail.blogspot.com/

Had a bit of a thing for Proas

https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak





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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 9:48pm
It is always interesting reading about boats generally and unusual boat projects especially. Thumbs Up

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 30 Nov 18 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by tink

Bit worried how Sam Spoons knows about the IC
Rich96, no I haven’t camped on an Ent, people have using a smaller rig. The Ent was actually designed with two sets of sails one smaller for cruising. People camp on Mirrors, I am very much in the camp - the smaller the boat the more it gets used.



I agree about smaller boats being used more (possibly)

But camping in a Mirror ? Where on earth would you sleep ?



Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 30 Nov 18 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I suspect the OP won't be too worried by the relative instability of the Ent as he has an Int Canoe in his past Big smile


I mean for camping obviously


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 30 Nov 18 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by tink

Bit worried how Sam Spoons knows about the IC
Rich96, no I haven’t camped on an Ent, people have using a smaller rig. The Ent was actually designed with two sets of sails one smaller for cruising. People camp on Mirrors, I am very much in the camp - the smaller the boat the more it gets used.



I agree about smaller boats being used more (possibly)

But camping in a Mirror ? Where on earth would you sleep ?


Not that hard at all, this is one of many  http://www.hostellerssailingclub.org.uk/index.php/articles/mirror-dinghy-cruising" rel="nofollow - http://www.hostellerssailingclub.org.uk/index.php/articles/mirror-dinghy-cruising

Now with Christmas coming what you need on your list to Santa is:

The Unlikely Voyage of Jack De Crow: A Mirror Odyssey from North Wales to the Black Sea

By  https://www.amazon.co.uk/A.-J.-Mackinnon/e/B001K8MY14/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1" rel="nofollow - A. J. Mackinnon




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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 30 Nov 18 at 2:52pm
Very swallows and Amazon’s



Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 30 Nov 18 at 6:42pm
Agreed with tink on the Jack de Crow book, a fantastic read


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 01 Dec 18 at 7:56am
Thanks one and all for the replies along with these and an other forum I have clarified my thoughts.

I don’t think the Enterprise is for me, the GRP ones come with too many issues and due to the age are probably a fair bit over the 91kg. I love the Wooden Ents but I have done wooden boats and want to sail not sand, yes I know modern wooden boats are not too much of a chore but I just want to maximise time on the water, not totally ruled out but exploring other options.

So currently hot are: an original Mk2 Gull, Gull Spirit and possibly a Comet Zero, lighter than the Gull, comes with an asymmetric and nice flat benches to set up camping. They are rare as rocking horse ****  I have never seen one and not sure how durable they are. 

So thanks again 


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Dec 18 at 9:53am
I don't think GRP Ents are all as bad as suggested, sure some will be and an old one will probably have taken some weight but there are lots out there (far more than Gulls and Comet Zeros) so you might well find a good one. You know enough about boats to walk away from a dodgy one. I haven't sailed the others but the Gull, at least, is a tried, tested and well respected design so you'd do fine with one of those (but would the same caveats apply as with an old GRP Ent? Not sure but it's considerable smaller and only 8kg lighter).

Enjoy the search Thumbs Up


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 01 Dec 18 at 10:09am
Your logic is Flawless Sam Spoons. I think once I have moved it is a case of seeing what comes up. I repaired a holed West 11 once and was shocked how flexible the panels were and so by extension how hard it is to make flat GRP panels stiff when you have to get down to the weight of the original wood design.

Back up at the club with the abandoned Ent as per the picture and will have a good look at it



-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Dec 18 at 10:42am
Worth adding that it's not going to have to cope with the same rig loads as a racing boat and modifications to correct problems would be fine as taking it out of class isn't an issue.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 01 Dec 18 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Worth adding that it's not going to have to cope with the same rig loads as a racing boat and modifications to correct problems would be fine as taking it out of class isn't an issue.
Yes that had crossed my mind. I still ultimately, ultimately want a lug rigged boat. So slightly different GRP Ent, hole in the foredeck just aft of the bulkhead, bit if reinforcement and a free standing lug rig, warming to this plan.




-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Dec 18 at 9:47pm
That Ent' looks nothing like mine, the Thwart on mine is across centre board case, can see why there was flexing with this layout, I suppose you could move it ? There are no bits of wood under side decks either, never seen this particular layout.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Dec 18 at 1:42am
I can't recall ever seeing an Ent with the front thwart crossing the CB case (wouldn't that be out of class? I've seen them with it at the extreme front of the case on a FRP boat), pics please 432zero Thumbs Up, and all Ents baring the Rondar Mk3 have knees supporting the side deck, they are GRP on some GRP/FRP boats but they are always there. 

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 02 Dec 18 at 8:27am
I presume that 432zero is talking about the the Ent in the OP, i.e. this one, 



It doesn’t look like any of the other Ents I have seen either. Whether wood, GRP or FRP most generally look very similar layout wise save for with tanks or airbags. 

This type are rarely for sale from which I can assume they weren’t popular so not many where made or they didn’t last, both good reasons to avoid them. 

There is one GRP one for sale the moment where the vendor has been very honest and posted all sorts of pictures of structural failures, the boat is only £80. It is hard to tell from the pictures exactly where the damage is other the the cockpit floor. 





People are equally honest with wooden boats and is generally water damage to the foredeck that is the issue. Because Ents don’t have tanks if they are stored bow up they wooden one probably last, not like GP 14 where the transom is suspect due to the aft tank. I think the point I am making is a wooden Ent is probably not a bad proposition, foredeck damage is easy to spot and relatively easy to repair.


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Dec 18 at 10:12am
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten the old Holt GRP WRT the 'knees' under the side decks. But the thwart is still bifurcated by the CB case and board. There is obviously some flexibility in the positioning of the thwart(s), the internal layout used to be strictly to plan and pretty much as in the one above but I've seen them at the extreme front end of the CB case and the after thwart is absent on the Rondar mk3.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Dec 18 at 11:05am
Tink,
That's the boat, wooden layout different on mine the 2 thwarts are both fixed to centre board case, centre/aft front block was attached to back block.
Perhaps it's a regional thing but I have only seen Ent's with same layout has mine, wooden boats excepted.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 02 Dec 18 at 11:15am
It looks like it would be where the crew sit and they would have to straddle it, tacking must be a proper dance. Can’t see it being much use as a stiffener, it being cut in half and all. Clearly it wasn’t a brilliant idea as it has become extinct. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: RichC69
Date Posted: 22 May 19 at 12:05pm
I have an identical Holt GRP Ent / 404 #16174 with the original measurement certificate which dates it to April 1972.

Here's a picture of it after a capsize to port (we were using a spare sail hence the later number),  it was very low in the water due to an ill fitted inspection hatch frame which has now been sealed,  bailing it was a good work out,  it made getting in over the transom easy...





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