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Wire in the blood

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13087
Printed Date: 21 Mar 19 at 9:40pm
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Topic: Wire in the blood
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Wire in the blood
Date Posted: 06 Jun 18 at 6:16pm
Just wondering how many of you have ever, or do hang out on the wire, or fancy doing it in future, let's hear your experiences, boat types when where etc.

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Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jun 18 at 7:48pm
Have bunged down "have in the past", but can't do "may in the future", too.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 2:53pm
Well that's a surprise, 24 hours later, 24 responses and even split 12 have and 12 haven't, is that because there are not that many opportunities to give it a try I wonder. If you asked windsurfers you'd get 99% positive and the 1% would be a beginner waiting to hook in.

I suppose the boats available other than my Farr are a bit technical, RS600, Musto Skiff, Contender, and or the twin or single trap boats are going out of fashion fast.

Got to say I'm really surprised there are not more that have wired as a crew and only 1 fancies a try, I wonder if the poll said foiling what that would look like, not that I'm that interested.

Thanks for taking the trouble to vote though, quite enlightening.

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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 3:10pm
Do you think  trapping on  boat is a bit different to a windsurfer in that it moves you a lot further away from the boat? Windsurfing you're effectively in the same position, with the same balance, but taking some load off your arms.  Hooking in on a board increases your contact points from 4 to 5. When you go out on the trapeze in a dinghy you lose a contact point plus the contact points you're left with are much smaller.  

I think trapping in a boat is a bigger step (literally and figuratively). Plus there are just some venues where trapeze boats just aren't suited, so it's not surprising the numbers are as prevalent as windsurfing. 

I think by far the best way to learn to trapeze is as a crew where the helm is hiking, even if the ambition is to helm from the wire.




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RS800 1144


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by mozzy


Do you think† trapping on† boat is a bit different to a windsurfer in that it moves you a lot further away from the boat? Windsurfing you're effectively in the same position, with the same balance, but taking some load off your arms.† Hooking in on a board increases your contact points from 4 to 5. When you go out on the trapeze in a dinghy you lose a contact point plus the contact points you're left with are much smaller.††
I think trapping in a boat is a bigger step (literally and figuratively). Plus there are just some venues where trapeze boats just aren't suited, so it's not surprising the numbers are as prevalent as windsurfing.†
I think by far the best way to learn to trapeze is as a crew where the helm is hiking, even if the ambition is to helm from the wire.


Yes, I'd pretty much agree with all that, I just thought it was a weird 'step' not having the boom to hang onto, but I guess it is true there's a certain sense of nakedness away from the controls, wiring as a crew is easier with only one hand needed for the jib sheet or spinnaker so in the early days you also hang on to the wire with one hand, at least I did at first.
But once you're out there and comfy it is as good a 'rush' as anything, especially if your little boat footsteers like a board.

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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 3:39pm
My first foray onto the wire was in University 420s, then as a crew in ISOs, on Dart 18s, as crew and sometime helm in International 14, then RS600, then as helm on 49er then RS700. I've hung from a wire as crew and helm on Spitfires and Cherubs, crewed from the wire in Fireballs, 505s, BOSS and helmed from the wire on Dart 15 Sprint.

What's the question?

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OK 2071
RS200 411


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 3:56pm
I'd wired once on a Tornado roughly around the same time I started windsurfing ('78/9ish) then when I got back into dinghies (2008) I bought the Spice and, basically learned to trapeze, helm from the trap, fly an assy kite and relearn to sail a dinghy. The Spice was a perfect boat to do all that on and sailing it still gives me a huge buzz even though I mostly sail (and race) singlehanded in the Blaze now.

The only downside (and reason for buying the Blaze) is the lack of a committed regular crew which relegates my Spice sailing to blasting mostly.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by craiggo



What's the question?


Why are you not doing it anymore according to your current rides?(graduate/OK)

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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 8:53pm
Why are we not wiring anymore? Many reasons, but for me its a bit like running or windsurfing - there's a certain pleasure in having a good workout while sailing and seeing direct effort turn into performance. That's not to say that wiring isn't physical - just a different sort, maybe more akin to cycling maybe.
Btw - the last boat I wired on was a 505, but I've also had a few ICs which is a different sort of crazier/lazier wiring altogether


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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 10:18pm
...because I can't get class racing every weekend. [Can't find a fingers in ears emoji.]


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 7:05am
Thereís usually no set rules on these things, but a lot of sailors will try wiring and come to the conclusion itís not right for either them or their location. Personally I enjoy the feeling of it, but I do know some people who say they feel disconnected from the boat more.

On the latter point about location, I know if I were choosing a boat for restricted waters it would always be a hiker. Even on open lakes like Rutland or Grafham, the variable wind would steer me more towards hikers over wires these days, but I might choose something more powerful- a D-One, RS300 or Blaze springs to mind, assuming Iím buying it for pure sailing rather than the racing.

Where wires really come into their own is upwind in open water - be that sea swell or estuary chop.... that stuff is hard work in a hiking boat and the wire would always pay for me in those conditions.

Out here in Valencia I would love a Contender one day... that would be a cracking boat here.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 7:21am
I crewed an Osprey recently, but inland on a puddle, being able to tack quickly means hiking boats.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 7:28am
Yep, N12s used to smash us in 420s during our inland puddle winter series when I was a kid.

I canít remember the handicap difference (we were 115 I think, Laser 114). Lasers and 12s destroyed us over the water, never mind on handicap


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 8:04am
one if the funniest things Iíve seen in sailing is some mad bugger trying to sail an RS600 on Frensham Pond. Typhoo have less tea-bags.

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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 8:09am
I gave up because I moved to somewhere that is not suitable for a Contender, and I'm more interested in fleet racing where I live than travelling 40min to somewhere I could have sailed it in a handicap fleet.

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 8:10am
Originally posted by PeterG

I gave up because I moved to somewhere that is not suitable for a Contender, and I'm more interested in fleet racing where I live than travelling 40min to somewhere I could have sailed it in a handicap fleet.




Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 9:54am
Is there a 'sensible' class racing wire boat?

I suppose the Contender is about the only act in town really if you have a crane handy to launch and recover.

Funny, I was thinking last night as once again I found myself at the back of the fleet (OCS start and didn't get told till halfway up the first beat) wether I should re visit my previous nemesis, the MPS, now with my new arsenal of actual sailing skills, then I remembered it wasn't the lightest tool in the box either. Then once again the top out to sea reach delivered such exquisite joy, it didn't matter where I was in the fleet or wether there were lots of the same boat to race against.

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 10:11am
Must Skiff - class racing at Stokes Bay (sounds pretty awesome to be honest)

Are there any real contender fleets in the U.K.? Itís a travellers boat isnít it?


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 10:59am
Originally posted by iGRF

Is there a 'sensible' class racing wire boat?

You talking about club racing or also including open meeting fleets?

HISC has Fireballs and 29ers regularly getting class starts. 700s are in the fast fleet, but often get good turnouts (a couple of weekends ago they had 10 out, but it's quite often half a dozen). 

I know fireballs used to get club based fleet racing at a few midland clubs I visited as a kid (Ogston, Draycote, Chelmarsh, Staunton Harold, Northmapton) not sure if true fleet racing still exists there or not. 

Itchenor have class racing in the 800s. I think HISC could do if we got our act together a bit more. 

Itchenor also have class racing for I14. 

Mustos at stokes, datchet, and maybe rutland? 

Including open meeting fleets there are a few more. 


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Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 11:16am
Yes have both crewed Osprey, 505, FD. 
Helmed and wired, 800 and Int14. 
At at my size I am better of helming a sitting out boat hence the Phantom.
No trapeze single hander needs 110kg.



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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 11:58am
You can't call RS700's or 29ers 'sensible', Fireballs remain in the dark ages should have transitioned to Assym ages ago, too late for them now and by all counts they aint good sea boats anyway.

The 505 has priced itself out of existence, the RS500 is a dog, no point even discussing the 49er, which leaves the 800 which is also twin wire, but a nice ride.

The V3000 is a lively 'sensible' boat but hasn't had a wide take up, the L3K is a good cheap entry but they're getting older and older and fewer and farer between.

I strikes me for 'humans' with jobs there really aint much out there that's not antediluvian. Hornet, Osprey being two that spring to mind OK if you've done the pole switching thing.

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Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 12:02pm
Fireball very strong class, Osprey for bigger crews also doing OK. 
No single wire assy has been produced for adults of any use so stick with the symmetrical kite boats.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by iGRF

You can't call RS700's or 29ers 'sensible'
Sorry, thought you meant sensible, as in sensible numbers. I.e. not one or two, but a handful that would make it a decent race. 

To be honest, I find the 29er pretty sensible (as single wire asymmetric go). It's reluctance to pitch-pole made it great even in waves. Certainly less challenging that 12 footer and cherubs. 

But yeah, neither are 'easy'.

Originally posted by iGRF

The V3000 is a lively 'sensible' boat but hasn't had a wide take up, the L3K is a good cheap entry but they're getting older and older and fewer and farer between.
Aren't these the same boat, just renamed after being dropped  by laser? 

Originally posted by iGRF

I strikes me for 'humans' with jobs there really aint much out there that's not antediluvian. Hornet, Osprey being two that spring to mind OK if you've done the pole switching thing.
(Laser) 4000. Not sure there is any club level fleet racing going on. But they do have a few opens. Heavy, but far more stable than most of it's type. 


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RS800 1144


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 1:03pm
V3k is 54kg and epoxy, L3k 79kg and polyester. That's a 25kg/32% weight loss, the Laser 3k is a nice boat so I'd think that makes the V3000 an even nicer one Thumbs Up (and even almost light enough for Graeme).....

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by iGRF



...*now with my new arsenal of actual sailing skills, then I remembered it wasn't the lightest tool in the box either. Then once again the top out to sea reach delivered such exquisite joy, it didn't matter where I was in the fleet or wether there were lots of the same boat to race against.

*I think you hit the nail on the head here. (think about that for a moment)

Unfortunately, most of the answers about why people don't trapeze or what they feel about it, will be from an established norm within a sailing culture that has been starved of one of the worlds great boats, due to it never making it out of New Zealand until recently.

Put the 3.7 in a bunch of teenagers on ANY pond and they will give you a different view when they hit middle age.

For me, I won't sail at all unless it is on a trapeze boat now. I have sailed a lot of boats.


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 3:27pm
That's my trouble, always has been, my teenaged brain trapped in an ageing body.

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


V3k is 54kg and epoxy, L3k 79kg and polyester. That's a 25kg/32% weight loss, the Laser 3k is a nice boat so I'd think that makes the V3000 an even nicer one†Thumbs Up†(and even almost light enough for Graeme).....


One of the very few boats I've sailed that actually does plane upwind and that was the L3K with my old windsurfing chum as crew, what the V3000 would do I can only imagine, it's another lost jewel in the dinghy market, if I could have persuaded one of the daughters of darkness to risk getting her hair wet and mascara destroyed, this would have been the tool I'd have used..

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Originally posted by iGRF


...*now with my new arsenal of actual sailing skills, then I remembered it wasn't the lightest tool in the box either. Then once again the top out to sea reach delivered such exquisite joy, it didn't matter where I was in the fleet or wether there were lots of the same boat to race against.
*I think you hit the nail on the head here. (think about that for a moment)
Unfortunately, most of the answers about why people don't trapeze or what they feel about it, will be from an established norm within a sailing culture that has been starved of one of the worlds great boats, due to it never making it out of New Zealand until recently.
Put the 3.7 in a bunch of teenagers on ANY pond and they will give you a different view when they hit middle age.
For me, I won't sail at all unless it is on a trapeze boat now. I have sailed a lot of boats.


This is probably very true - we develop skills in certain ways, I think thereís an observable and sizeable skills uplift from Ďthe kidsí who sailed 29ers compared to those in their 40s and 50s now with nowt but a brief dalliance with that sh*tfest Laser II for trapeze exposure.


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 08 Jun 18 at 9:44pm
It didn't bother me whether a boat has a trapeze or not. The RS700 was fantastic at my home club but as I started sailing more with my daughter than I did on my own it got relegated to 2nd boat and the running costs were just too high for the limited number of sails per year.
I chose the OK because I wanted a very quick boat to rig with minimal running cost, plus I wanted a boat that is nice to sail. I was slightly tempted to go back to the 600 but thought I'd try something else.
Once my daughter is bigger I wouldn't rule out an 800 or similar.


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OK 2071
RS200 411


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 26 Jun 18 at 12:12am
I love trapezing and hiking hurts; I never understand why people are so willing to put all that hiking effort in when you could go faster for less effort by wiring.  All this "oh we don't want the complication of a trapeze" is like saying "oh we don't want the complication of reclining seats in the car" .. and as for the "I want something to sail with the kids",  kids LOVE trapezing, it looks dead cool and it feels like flying.  What yoof wouldn't rather be out on the wire dangling one hand in the water than sitting on a thwart holding a jib sheet.  Far too many families in 2000s and not enough in 29ers, 3000s and RS500s IMHO.  

Shame in a way that I moved from crewing a Javelin to helming one; keep wondering about sticking a second wire on it for fun (there is power enough)  .... but I still have my V3000 for when there's no crew, and yes, it's a rocket.  I sail it off 975 to stop me winning everything and in the right wind conditions am up with the RS400s.  It is not an ideal single hander though - too many sheets and too much power in F5 or more;  the only way to de-power on the fly is to sheet out the main, which closes the slot with the overlapping roachy jib and slows it right down, or pinch like mad, which slows it down even more.   Now, chop the jib down to 1.6sqm and fit a self tacker and it would be different, that and/or a Swift Solo style simultaneous main & jib sheeting system!!

Meanwhile back on the wire for the Osprey Nationals at Weymouth in August; THAT should be fun :-) :-)


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Javelin 558


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Jun 18 at 10:41am
I dunno about wiring being easier, it probably is on a two man boat but I've done two windy races recently one in the Farr in what really were survival conditions for me and the other in similar conditions that blew up as the race progressed this in the EPS in which I was over powered to the point an Aero 7 overtook me upwind to leeward.

But of the two, three laps of triangle sausage = one lap races, I was far more knackered on the trapeze boat than I was hiking, probably down to new muscles being employed in the former, I seriously had to come home and have a lie down after the thursday night race whereas the sunday morning was a lot less traumatic yet the wind was similarly force five plus.

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Jun 18 at 10:47am
You have less security when wiring so instead of locking in as you would hiking or windsurfing you are constantly making small changes to keep your balance. Especially true when helming as you have both hands occupied and can't wave your arms about or even grab the wire if it all gets a bit twitchy.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Hengest
Date Posted: 27 Jun 18 at 12:07pm
I'm a year into sailing a 600, I agree with GRF, definitely not easier on the body trapezing. But the days of aching knees, arms, shoulders, well everything really. Just act as a constant reminder to what an awesome time I had.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 27 Jun 18 at 1:54pm
Have crewed a 420 when young and a Prindle 18 as a youth and then helmed  from the wire on a Boss (horrid boat) but currently have no desire to do it again, am very happy and comfortable hiking my Hadron like a demon

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H2 #115


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 27 Jun 18 at 2:13pm
You missed the option for yes - both helm and crew...


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Jun 18 at 3:46pm
Crews don't count do they?

I know you have to say how important they are and everything, but we helms all know the truth don't we?

It must be that way, you rarely ever see the crew name in results.

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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 01 Jul 18 at 7:51pm
Well I was out in the Javelin today,  hiking my bits off through the gusts, hauling on the 1:1 mainsheet and endlessly hoisting the huge kite and stuffing it away again.  Ache all over.  But yes the V3k hurts in a different way resulting in cramps and muscle spasms (fast twitch muscles vs heavy haulage muscles).  My one afternoon out in an MPS (followed by a beer and a fistful of nurofen) resulted in one of the best 12 hour sleeps of my life!

Meanwhile a visitation of young scouting type people at the club today; dressed in huge immobilizing life jackets and crash hats to be sailed around the lake by "gentlemen of a certain age" in heavily reefed tubs.  Bet THAT will get us some recruits to the sport!!


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3604 ...lapse of reason
Javelin 558


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Jul 18 at 10:34am
Originally posted by iGRF

I dunno about wiring being easier, it probably is on a two man boat but I've done two windy races recently one in the Farr in what really were survival conditions for me and the other in similar conditions that blew up as the race progressed this in the EPS in which I was over powered to the point an Aero 7 overtook me upwind to leeward.

But of the two, three laps of triangle sausage = one lap races, I was far more knackered on the trapeze boat than I was hiking, probably down to new muscles being employed in the former, I seriously had to come home and have a lie down after the thursday night race whereas the sunday morning was a lot less traumatic yet the wind was similarly force five plus.

It's not new muscles, it's your aerobic system. Trapeze boats are AEROBIC, that's why you were knackered. On the whole, a hiking boat allows you to be less aerobic. I'm not saying they aren't aerobic, just you can get away with it not being. You can't in a Trap boat single hander. That's why Mustos etc... are hard even for reasonably sailors if they are not aerobically fit enough. And frankly, that is a large proportion of sailors (given age demographics etc), myself included. The 3.7 is less aerobic than 600's, MPS, etc but still aerobic. And it also provides the opportunity to rest without the extra energy sapping capsize a MPS etc will hand out in spades.


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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 04 Jul 18 at 1:18pm
trapeze boats are AEROBIC, that's why you were ...... etc

Think you were possibly not working quite hard enough when 'hiking' from your comments.  Wink


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 04 Jul 18 at 1:58pm
Think MPS sailors could back Jackís theory up with heart rate monitor readouts Mike.

I know the RYA commissioned something similar with HR monitoring on 470 crews in the 1990s... crews worked aerobically harder than helms. Admitted iíve Never seen a 470 helm really hike her balls blue a la Laser / Finn / Blaze sailors... but I Ďgetí what Jack is saying, as would most whoíve sailed both hiker and trapeze singlehanders


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Jul 18 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

trapeze boats are AEROBIC, that's why you were ...... etc

Think you were possibly not working quite hard enough when 'hiking' from your comments.  Wink

Read the post. Wink

If you'd sailed a Burton Cup, you'd have seen me aerobically working.


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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 04 Jul 18 at 3:27pm
I've not seen you sail your 3.7 ever at BSC in all the time it have been there either !!  ... It is your one is it not ?   Do people really sail them on a regular basis  ... as well as on this forum ? ... GRF excluded of course .... LOL


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jul 18 at 10:05pm
Was back in the Solution this afternoon, having to work quite hard in a brisk gusty force four battling big blokes in Lasers, it was hot this time I was trussed up in a wetsuit expecting to swim, but I'm getting better now in puffy conditions and made a real race of it, lack of hydration probably did it for me letting him go in one moment of madness, but tomorrow I'll be back in the Farr and the difference is this.

Once you go through the tack your there, hiking you just lean out get your butt over the edge and your stomach does the rest but the Farr, you go through the tack get the boat going (nowhere near wire to wire for me yet) then you have to kick up and out not always certain there's enough, then there's the added nervous energy coming from being new to it all so there are muscle groups that are different.

As to aerobic.. nah at no time do I breath heavy at this lark, now I maybe getting on a bit but fit? It's why I'm doing it, you don't have to be particularly fit, not fighting fit, like you need to be to race windsurfers or any of the other stuff I've done down the years.

No, I put it down to nervous exhaustion and extra muscle groups, but it's not bad exhaustion it's exhaustion from having too much fun, and I'm still getting better at it and love every minute.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Jul 18 at 4:15pm
I like the last sentence of your post. Sometimes or most of the time it sounds like you have it!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Jul 18 at 8:06pm
Yes, fun, that's why I sail my Mirror, most of us are to old to be so 'serious', it's all about 'winning' but, seriously, match your ambitions to your potential and enjoy your sailing, blow a raspberry at the next grump who calls you for something.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Jul 18 at 10:22pm
Well, I raced the Blaze in an unexpected 5-10 knots last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. Despite the fact I was 10th of 16. Winning is not a priority these days Embarrassed

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



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