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Hiking or Wiring

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12989
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 8:49am
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Topic: Hiking or Wiring
Posted By: jcooper
Subject: Hiking or Wiring
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 6:51am
Which is better for your knees: hiking or trapezing?

Having recently had knee injury (not from sailing) and an operation to put it right I’m much more conscious of the stresses, strains and possible damage to the knees from sailing.

The affects bent leg hike v straight hiking on the knees are well documented (by Steve Cockerill and others) but what about trapezing?

On the face of it, it would seem that trapezing would be gentler on the knees, but what about those light days when you’re half in / half out with knees often full bent. Does trapezing higher solve this problem?

Also are knee injuries more like during a major wipeout when trapazing compared to hiking

Any comments or experiences?



Replies:
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 8:06am
I do versions of both. Hike helm and sometimes crew a two person single wire boat and helm a wiring singlehander. 

As a layman, non medical / physiology opinion I would say there could be lot of difference in the intensity with which you choose to pursue either technique also the class of boat would make for huge variations in stresses. 

For prolonged and maximum consistent righting effort I would think most would agree wiring is easier.  Some classes of boat the may need more effort and stress to make the transitions from in to out and if sailing in smaller more intense waters / competition this could be an issue.

Some or many will say that with proper conditioning and good technique hiking is fine. Personally I can't see that as to my mind hiking puts stresses on the knee opposite to that which evolution (walking upright) has equipped it for.

Horses for courses I guess and as ever in life you can make anything as hard or as easy as you choose.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 8:48am
Buy a Blaze....... That's exactly what a mate has done post knee injury. 

Seriously though, where do you sail, as DD says I think intensity is more of an issue than the specific technique. Trapezing on a small lake is probably equivalent to doing squats for 2 hours where sitting out is more like abdominal curls (the legs are more static when sitting out). I have also damaged a knee in the last few weeks which is under investigation but was given the all clear to sail again (both by my GP and the specialist, both of whom has some dinghy experience) so I'd say go carefully and if it hurts stop but otherwise do whichever you feel most secure doing, it's more likely a twisting movement or fall will do more damage than controlled wiring or hiking....

I'm also not convinced by all of Steve Cockrells theories regarding straight leg vs bent leg hiking, given that we all do a fair bit of both. I'm sure they enable a L@sar sailor to hike harder for longer but a Laser is such an ergonomic disaster..........

Oh, and not sure I agree with DD about evolution equipping us to walk upright, not sure about knees but it did a terrible job WRT backs Angry


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 9:00am
The Hadron H2 was actually designed almost for you in mind, it is about as comfy a boat as you will ever hike if you decide to go down that route!


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 9:13am
I think intensity is a bigger concern and agree with the comment about wiring on small, shifty lakes.  
There are some boats which are more ergonomic than others - not that I've sailed one, but I reckon a D-One with kite ditched would be a good option for those with knee troubles.  (PY wrangling and Fuller's accusations of cheating aside) 


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 9:31am
What do you reckon Sam, evolution or erosion the biggest culprit?

40 years ago I could regularly shoulder 50kg bags of cement / seed corn / fertiliser from off the floor; now 25kg seems enough and ibuprofen has become my best friend. I feel your pain Handshake.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 9:59am
Strangly erosion is not my issue, the x-rays showed no sign of arthritis in my knee. Back is another matter and it's old trauma (due to some foolish heavy lifting in my youth) causing the occasional problems I have......

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 12:19pm
Not everybody's knees are the same.
So what some random other with 'a bad knee' finds better may be of little relevance.
I have some damage to my right knee which can be an issue e.g. long distance hill walking.
A sail around the course hiking in F3-F4 is good for it.
YMMV.


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 12:31pm
Trapezing a Contender in a good steady breeze is a joy, and I used to feel very smug sailing past Laser sailors struggling upwind hiking out.

However, going upwind in a Contender in a marginal trapezing or shifty breeze can be a nightmare for knees!


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 12:49pm
Too right Peter, ecstasy to agony.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 12:51pm
Too right Peter, ecstasy to agony.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 2:18pm
If you followed evolution you'd all be Racing windsurf boards.

Having regressed myself to this sitting out lark I've decided to bin the idea for sea sailing and have recently ordered a little wiring steed for precisely the reason that long legs hiking are boring as well as mildly painful and require tacking out of the sunny side of the sail too often.

We shall see how effective it is compared to a harness on a windsurf race board, but I tend to wonder about the marginal bits in between, I guess you'll still be hooked in so your upper body weight supported on the wire wether your half sat on the side or all the way out..

I also wonder about hook height which makes a difference in both the other sports I pursue in harnesses, do you go for a high hook if it's windy and low hook if it's light, do folk adjust their hook heights even?

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 2:54pm
No, I'd say it's unlike windsurfing (can't comment on kiting) the hook is usually around your CG but the length of the wire (and, therefore how high you wire) is adjustable, low when it's windy for more leverage and high when marginal.

Not TBF that I ever used anything but a seat harness once they were invented, I never could get on with waist harnesses, but then I never did get to grips with waves either........


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 3:50pm
I don't know what current thinking is, but back in the day we were always encouraged to get our weight into the rig crewing 420s and trap off the centreboard casing as early as possible.  I could quite imagine new school thinking would buck that, focusing on agility and weight placement for the crew now rather than early wiring... so the helm just has to sit there and point it in the right direction/


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 4:15pm
I would say that being a wiring crew on a three sail boat is one of the best rides in town. I'll happily jump in the front of my boat if my regular crew is away and there's a decent driver looking for a sail.

Yes TT, not applicable I guess to more weight sensitive modern skiffs but in the past I've also been told to get crew on wire to "get the rig working better" not been unknown to sometimes see helms sitting to leeward.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 4:35pm
BTW.

iGRF. Do I guess a Farr is inbound? I don't always agree with some of your particular conspiracy theories BUT I really hope you enjoy your wiring on what sounds an appropriate boat. Please though give some thought to this request, forget the rating number, just have fun and tell us how you get on.

edit spelling.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Yes TT, not applicable I guess to more weight sensitive modern skiffs but in the past I've also been told to get crew on wire to "get the rig working better" not been unknown to sometimes see helms sitting to leeward.

And it will have the effect of damping any rolling motion, sort of the opposite of sitting close together upwind in waves to allow the bow to rise over them more easily.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Do Different


BTW.
iGRF. Do I guess a Farr is inbound? I don't always agree with some of your particular conspiracy theories BUT I really hope you enjoy your wiring on what sounds an appropriate boat. Please though give some thought to this request, forget the rating number, just have fun and tell us how you get on.
edit spelling.





Now I've committed I'll do whatever I can to make it as fast as I can, I've ordered a gantry for the rudder, from Andy at Bloodaxe, I'm having it wrapped in carbon to make it look quick at least, I shall probably go with Dyneema rigging once I know what the stainless stuff measures, it's got a carbon rig and I don't care about the PY, if I start winning they'll penalise me anyway, they usually do if I turn up with something new.
Fundamentally I just want an easier time of it on our quite long courses.

Getting back to the hook height it must make a difference as to how soon you can wire I mean a lower hook will have more weight than a high hook surely, I'm trying to get my head round it. The higher the hook height the lower ratio of body weight will transfer to the rig won't it?

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 7:55pm
Both hiking and wiring are bad for my knees, done loads of both and cycle to work each day (10 hilly miles round trip), eaten too much paracetamol and  ibuprofen drunk too much to deaden the pain

So a few years ago I gave up the whole sitting down/doing squats on the rail thing and got a windsurfer, just picked up a Mistral D2 to add to my beach toy collection, so something fun the play with this summer that will keep my interest.


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Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by iGRF



Getting back to the hook height it must make a difference as to how soon you can wire I mean a lower hook will have more weight than a high hook surely, I'm trying to get my head round it. The higher the hook height the lower ratio of body weight will transfer to the rig won't it?


That is indeed the way it works. When I used to trapeze I would have a very high hook in light winds so that I was effectively walking around the boat whilst hooked in. As the wind strengthens, the hook got lowered.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 8:35pm
So... inevitable next question, what's the best trapeze harness solution which offers the most variety of hook height?

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 9:06pm
Hook height stays the same (about waist) it's the wire ring that goes up n down, but you know all that from your Contender gang.

I like the rudder gantry plan, I guess lengthening the distance between rudder and board it will make the helm a little less of a hair trigger.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 9:13pm
My Contender lot all have the surname saurus or osaur, they have harnesses that haven't really changed that much from Noahs time, in fact having spent the last hour googling this seems to be pretty much the case for all of them. I can't even find one supplied with a QR hook, was there not some legislation about having QR hooks on harnesses? They all look long overdue for a redesign.

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by iGRF


Getting back to the hook height it must make a difference as to how soon you can wire I mean a lower hook will have more weight than a high hook surely, I'm trying to get my head round it. The higher the hook height the lower ratio of body weight will transfer to the rig won't it?

When you say "Raising the hook" in this context I assume you mean shortening the trap wire not changing the position of the hook on your body? Trapezing higher (shorter wire) means your CG is closer to the gunnel, if you were upright (you'd fall into the boat.....) your CoG would be exactly over the gunnel, the longer the line the flatter your hang and the further your CoG is outside the boat and the greater your righting moment.

If you do mean moving the hook up or down your body, Do Different has it right, it doesn't matter where on your body the hook is (at least not as long as you are secure on the gunnel and comfortable) your CoG is fixed at around navel level and the righting moment depends on how far that is from the centreline of the boat. Short wires, upright stance CoG close to the side of the boat (you can achieve similar, to a point, by 'bending-ze-knees'), long wires, flat trapezing (with no boat heel and body parallel to the water) maximum righting moment. Issues arise in waves if you trap too low so compromise is required but basically that's it.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Feb 18 at 10:11pm
Oh, plenty of QR hooks out there, though nobody seems to have designed one that releases but stays attached! I suppose it means another sale every time someone uses one........

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 8:53am
I used to use a Banks Radial harness on my Contender and loved it. It had a QR hook. 

Adjustment of trapezing height is usually done by the wire length adjuster, not on the harness.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 9:49am
I was told by an coach who sailed 470s when weight jackets were allowed that they would have two hook positions to account for the change in their CoM after strapping a heap of lead to their chest. If they didn't their feet would lift off the deck and they'd tip backwards! 

So hook height is just to match your CoM with the aim to have as much weight supported by the wire;  changing it won't alter your righting moment. You can only increase righting moment by trapping lower (risk of hitting waves or dunking in lulls) and taller (harder to balance). 

There's still quite a lot to getting a nice harness that fits well though....

Trap wires you have a trade off between being able to get high enough in light winds when forward in the boat, and getting low enough at the back in heavy air. That can be quite a massive range of adjustment and you may have difficult reaching the trapeze adjuster when low, or standing on the trapeze adjuster tail in light winds... so it's best to have some way of adjusting the trapeze handle height. 


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 10:21am
Dakine did some prototypes Graeme ... I think they did it to despite you at the time!

Best to try a few on at the dinghy ex mate, they vary like windsurf harnesses


Posted By: jcooper
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 12:32pm
Thanks for all you comments

I currently sail a 400 which seems to be pretty tough on knees on long open water beats

I wonder if a hiking boat with racks (e.g. Blaze, B14) be less tough due allowing more flexibility in hiking style?

Also what is an Aero like to hike in - from a quick search of photos it looks as though most people use a semi-bent leg style?

Thx

John


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 1:21pm
I have a Dakine trap harness (it was me that asked them to make some for me, at the time I was planning on lobbying them into the sailing market but they got sold and all plans were off)

Re hook height, it's in my DNA from windsurfing and kiting, where the hook actually is on your body makes a deal of difference to the amount of weight you can bring to bear given some of it is shared with being on the board/ deck of the boat.

So my logic thinks in lighter winds if the hook were high on your chest then more of your weight goes through the boat so you can stay hooked in, and with it high on your chest particularly if you are ahem vertically challenged, then the angle of the wire v the mast will be less acute which should deliver more moment if my maths is correct (Not that I trust my maths any more than you lot trust my physics). Then again if I'm right then less weight will apply, so I guess the reason it's been the way it is for so long is having a centre hook is optimum.

I think that adjustability is a blind, all it does is alter the length of the wire, like having adjustable harness lines, it doesn't change the amount of weight in play, then again maybe I'm wrong.. who knows?

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by jcooper


Also what is an Aero like to hike in - from a quick search of photos it looks as though most people use a semi-bent leg style?

Thx

John
Not as nice as a D Zero if you're looking for modern boats or my Solution which isn't bad either given it's wider, I didn't like the riding position of the Aero which is probably something to do with the length of my legs, a shame because they are nice boats.

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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 1:54pm
Re. wiring. As better boys than me will atest to. Length of wire does not effect your mass but it does effect your weight on the wire and its effectiveness in relation to righting effort.

  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 2:14pm
I'd say the length of the wire is what determines the position of your CoG when trapezing straight legged. The shorter it is the closer to the centreline it will be (imagine rotating from horizontal to vertical around your feet so your CoG moves from, say, 1 metre from the side of the boat to directly above the side. Moving the hook up or down your body makes little difference, particularly when you're flat trapezing as almost all of your body weight is on the hook. The crucial thing is to have balance with just a little weight on your feet.



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 2:51pm
If you put the hook high on your body you'll just end up doing more work to hold good posture, to stop your bum drooping. 

I've got new trapeze lines to test this weekend. Shocksailing disc handle which sits lower on the cleat, meaning the adjustable range below the handle is greater (you can trap higher for a given hand height). Or you if you don't need to trapeze higher it means the handle is easier to reach when adjuster is at it's longest. Should be a bit more ergonomic too. 

I've got about 4 inches of adjustment in the trapeze line above the handle. At it's highest I can just about get flat wiring upwind but at it's longest I can get pretty much flat when in the foot loops at the downwind. 

Also trying 1:1 purchase too. Theory is less adjuster tail to deal with when high wiring (everyone must have stepped on their adjust tail and uncleated at least once before! right?). 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 3:34pm
Yes (more than once.......) How will you implement a 1:1 adjuster? I can't see a way to do it, 2:1 seems to be the minimum possible.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 3:50pm
Here y'go Sam. 

 http://www.shocksailing.com/product-clam-cleat-rope-guide.html


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 4:10pm
Yeah, that's it. 

Allow the cleat to hold in line while you adjust. From looking at a few videos and from what I've been told it's not as smooth as 2:1. But I don't like to adjust the height that often anyway and it solves the stepping on the long tail issue... we'll see how I get on soon enough....


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 4:26pm
As to the other question regarding QR hooks I'll use my kite hook which has a trigger release and a lock in gate if necessary. If anyone wants one I've got loads of them, redundant stock from the early days of kiting pre release systems. You just need to ditch the spinning leash that's integral unless you fancy leashing yourself to the boat which, thinking about it, probably isn't a bad idea whilst I get to grips with it.

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Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 4:27pm
You can also use 1:1 with the rope above the cleat with a cobra cleat. Useful if you prefer tacking sticks

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 4:28pm
So next question weights on the wires, anyone done it, another few kilos when it's windy wouldn't go amiss?

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 4:45pm
Like, lead weight on the trapeze wires?

Leaving aside its probably against class rules I would have thought it was slower to add weight to both wires. 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by E.J.

You can also use 1:1 with the rope above the cleat with a cobra cleat. Useful if you prefer tacking sticks

Got a picture? Not sure I know what a cobra cleat is or how one would use one on a trapeze


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Like, lead weight on the trapeze wires?
Leaving aside its probably against class rules I would have thought it was slower to add weight to both wires. 
Yep you'd only use it if it's breezy and less of a ballache than a weight jacket, they could be clipped on and off to suit. Just wondering and those harnesses nobody's built an impact vest and harness combined yet either I bet, it's like the dark ages here..

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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 5:17pm
Maybe give the lead on the trapeze lines a miss heh? 
Ouch


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 5:25pm
I think they have the cobra cleat above the handle / disc on a tack stick, that way for those athletic / coordinated types who go out straight arm then hook on the distance between eye and handle always  remains constant for perfect ergonomics whatever height is set.  


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 6:10pm
That’s the badger, although tack sticks are handy for easy unhooking and as you say keeping the handle at the perfect height. You don’t have to do the athletic bit, here they are;

https://www.thechandleryonline.com/images/productimages/151_HCL264.jpg

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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Here y'go Sam. 

 http://www.shocksailing.com/product-clam-cleat-rope-guide.html

That is 2:1 in a sense, because the line between the cleat and your hand is taking half the weight when you adjust it.
It's 1:1 when it's cleated I suppose.


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Maybe give the lead on the trapeze lines a miss heh? 
Ouch

After they've hit you in the head a few times, you realise the lighter the better.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Here y'go Sam. 

 http://www.shocksailing.com/product-clam-cleat-rope-guide.html

Thanks, I may try that. Smile But (pedant alert) strictly speaking that's a 2:1 ......... Embarrassed

edit :- eric got there first.....


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Re. wiring. As better boys than me will atest to. Length of wire does not effect your mass but it does effect your weight on the wire and its effectiveness in relation to righting effort.

  
Length of wire affects how horizontal your body is, and hence how small a wave or helm error results in a dunking.
Horizontal is less drag, but only so long as you stay dry.
On a wide boat the difference in leverage between horizontal and e.g. 20 degrees up is not huge.
Probably more important to be able to get in and out quickly.
Then of course some classes have dabbled with short wires and windward heel.

It's all really fine detail until you get better than I ever was and eliminate the swimming.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 8:49pm
Yeah, well they're both not technically 1:1 because you're lifting your own weight... unless those lazy helms are getting the crew to adjust their trapeze height Wink 

Those cobra cleats look cool. The pro looks to be that the distance between hoop and handle stays the same. However... doesn't that mean that the handle moves up and down quite a bit? I like the handle to be in the same place (or pretty similar) as I reach for it. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Feb 18 at 10:16pm
They're not 1:1 because the block on the cleat stays put and the rope you pull is carrying your weight (until you cleat it) halving the effort needed to lift your bodyweight. I remember, when I was a scout, standing in a bowline loop on one end of a rope run over a pulley in the ceiling and, on pulling the fall my foot left the floor (and, I fear at this point I may have lost my presence of mind), I immediately inverted and crashed down head first......... 

It always reminds me of Gerrard Hoffning's "Bricklayer's Story"

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOy2GuaP8Mo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOy2GuaP8Mo




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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 Feb 18 at 9:49am
But, the system is 1:1. You pull an inch of rope through the block, and the hoop raises an inch. 

I understand extra purchase comes from lifting yourself. But that purchase is fractional, depending on how in line you're pulling, which certainly isn't a full purchase when high wiring. 

Anyway... I've taken a purchase out of the adjuster system and will see how I get on this weekend Tongue 


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 10 Feb 18 at 9:56am
You will have bigger guns after, it is more difficult to fine adjust to perfect height but the pro is the immediate change in height.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 11:59am
Got to use the 1:1 adjusters yesterday. 

Big +ve was not having 2m of tail flailing around when high wiring. Was also nice being able move  further in one adjustment. You could get to where you wanted to be quicker. 

The lack or purchase didn't really feel hard whilst adjusting, but what was difficult was getting the rope out of the cleat. Nothing too awful when medium to low wiring, but when high wiring it's kind of an odd angle to get the required tug to release from the cleat. 

Not really a game changer, but decent upgrade on the whole. Think I'll keep them for now. 

The shock sailing trapeze discs were fantastic too. So much more comfortable than previous handles. 


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 4:57pm
I experienced the release issue also, I found having the thickest rope possible helps. Are you using standard cleats?

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 5:07pm
Standard clamcleats. Think rope is 5 or 6mm pre-stretched polyester stuff that came on the boat. 


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 5:07pm
Is there any variation of cam cleat which could serve?



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 5:31pm
Possibly. May be a little bulky but would certainly un-cleat easier. 

Class rules aren't the most clear, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to put different types of blocks on. Block's with cam cleats  are quite expensive, especially if I'm told to take it off at the first event! 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 5:33pm
Any cleat needs the rope pulling to release but a cam only requires the load to be removed, Clamcleats also need a few mm of movement too so if cam cleats could be used they should release more easily. But I'm not aware of any that are designed for the purpose and the form factor is not ideal. Somebody did make a single sided deck mounting cam cleat (often used for sym kite guys I believe) but the only pic I can find is this :-

http://www.mackayboats.com/mackayboats/assets/Image/int470/orderform/PoleDown_CamCleat.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.mackayboats.com/mackayboats/assets/Image/int470/orderform/PoleDown_CamCleat.jpg


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 5:33pm
If they are at the top of the rope then the standard cleat with the additional eye is about all there is. I’ve alway gone for 2:1 when it’s at the top, but to combat the extra rope required I put a coarse adjust above the handle so I can shorten the actual trapeze line between races and keep a short adjuster.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 5:42pm
You also have to ask yourself, how will this feel when it smacks me in the face... because sooner or later it will, and a cam cleat looks like it would hurt quite a bit! 

I have about 1m of adjust in my primary adjuster and six inches in the coarse adjust above. I fear if I had more movement in the coarse adjust and less in the primary it would leave my handle very low on windy days and I'm not sure if I'd be able to lift myself up from there. 


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 5:44pm
Single sided cam cleat? RWO Lance cleat?
TBH, I generally like trapeze lines than don't release too easily.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 6:07pm
Yup that's the puppy. I still think the form factor of a cam cleat is wrong though, as mozzy says it's gonna smack you in the face eventually.........

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 6:52pm
There's a double pull strap system that used to be used for kite depower that would ease the issues of uncleating, quite what the range of movement is I need to check but it could be a better solution than traditional jam cleats.

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Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 7:34pm
iGRF, you've also gotta think about whether you will sheet the main straight off the boom and therefore have no mainsheet cleat or whether you take the main through a deck mounted swivel block and (maybe) a jamming cleat.   With the Farr is possible to have a 2:1 mainsheet on a rear bridle, sheet off the boom and have enough clearance to swing the tiller extension forward through the tacks, especially if the rudder it on a gantry.

Leading the main to the deck, whether you have a cleat or not, will mean swinging the tiller extension around the back of the boat and that means you too will move backwards and sink the transom in the tacks; which is slow.

The Aussies and Kiwis are born being able to helm, tack and trapeze with ease but being born in the northern hemisphere I find tacking a trapeze single hander can lead to multiple opportunities parking up, falling over and to giving your mates a good laugh.  To slightly mitigate this, I use a mainsheet cleat (not my teeth) - which really has to be on the deck - because at critical moments, it leaves both your hands available for the tiller extension and hooking on and off the trapeze hook.  




  








-------------
Steve


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by boatshed

iGRF, you've also gotta think about whether you will sheet the main straight off the boom and therefore have no mainsheet cleat or whether you take the main through a deck mounted swivel block and (maybe) a jamming cleat.   With the Farr is possible to have a 2:1 mainsheet on a rear bridle, sheet off the boom and have enough clearance to swing the tiller extension forward through the tacks, especially if the rudder it on a gantry.

Leading the main to the deck, whether you have a cleat or not, will mean swinging the tiller extension around the back of the boat and that means you too will move backwards and sink the transom in the tacks; which is slow.

The Aussies and Kiwis are born being able to helm, tack and trapeze with ease but being born in the northern hemisphere I find tacking a trapeze single hander can lead to multiple opportunities parking up, falling over and to giving your mates a good laugh.  To slightly mitigate this, I use a mainsheet cleat (not my teeth) - which really has to be on the deck - because at critical moments, it leaves both your hands available for the tiller extension and hooking on and off the trapeze hook.  

I don't think it necessarily follows. To swing the extension around the back implies no mainsheet at the end of the boom at all, like a 600. Any sort of stern bridle or laser style traveller means either a very short extension, twin extensions or taking the extension forwards in tacks.
Obviously, taking the extension forwards means it has to fit behind any lines from boom to deck, whether that's kicker or sheet. Maybe the mainsheet could run forward along the boom, even right to the gooseneck, then back to a cleat.Maybe via a second block at the base of the mast. Some yachts do that, often double-sided with a winch either side.
When I had a go with a trapeze singlehander, as a newbie, yes I used the main cleat a fair bit. But maybe it would have been better to learn without a cleat. But that would have meant sorting out all those thing you need to cleat the main for, ashore. ISTR cleating the main for such purposes as re-tying my harness, sorting controls etc...
I don't know how the Farr behaves, but what I see of 600's, getting your weight forwards while tacking is absolutely key, otherwise it wants to go in irons, the centre main bridle is not your friend here.
ISTR 'Punk' had an alternative solution?
For my 2p, off the boom is the way, once you've re-learned. It's like learning centre sheet after olde-worlde transom sheeting though! (or maybe sailing a vintage Firefly if you have only ever used centre main?)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 9:14pm
From my experience taking the main sheet as a helm in the 800 last time I sailed one it would be almost impossible to sail well without a cleat... and that's coming from someone who hates cleats! 

Just look at this video of Steve Cockerill, no doubt a very good sailor, trying to take the main from the boom as a trapezing helm. Watch just a couple of manoeuvres (e.g. first tack at 2:00) and frankly it looks a mess. Boom sheeting (when trapezing) only works if the crew takes the main. 
[TUBE]https://youtu.be/lP7yAeN7inc[/TUBE]

Once you've got a cleat on the deck, you might as well free up the stern and take the tiller round the back. An extension long enough to trapeze with going forward will be a handful (if possible), it's either round the back or twin tillers with a stern bridle.  But twins are very prone to damage by another boat. It's telling that in 800s (pre-crew taking the main) they had the option of twin tillers and stern bridle, but almost no one took it up. 



Posted By: Dave.B
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 9:48pm
It's definitely possible to helm the Farr taking the sheet from the boom without a cleat. That's how I've set mine up from the start. Having no deck cleat allows the extension to pass forward and also allows hand over hand sheeting in front of you, rather than holding the main in your front hand and the extension in the other up by your ear. As you step out to wire you naturally sheet in and vice versa - no probs ! Mind you doing this with a kite would be quite the challenge :)


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H2 148
H2 113
RS300 365
Farr 3.7 397
Build Blog http://davesfarr37project.weebly.com/


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 9:57pm
I stand corrected! 

Obviously what makes it difficult in the 800 is not being able to take the extension in front of you and therefore hand over hand sheet. 

But... the other difficult thing is getting the sheet tension right as you go in. Normally you would want to keep tension, or increase tension for entry, then dump sheet mid tack. Is it not hard to do that as when you move in you loose all sheet tension?


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 10:01pm
Steve Cockerill has nearly as many decades of conventional sheet to unlearn as I do.
And he has a better standard to unlearn of course....
He's still actively sailing other boats too.
The 800 has a boom made of heavy ali, designed for centre main. That may not be the case with other boats. Wasn't the twin tiller option also linked with single trap?


Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by Dave.B

Having no deck cleat allows the extension to pass forward and also allows hand over hand sheeting in front of you, rather than holding the main in your front hand and the extension in the other up by your ear.  

This works for you because the tiller extension is short enough to not foul the trapeze wire when you are fully extended.  Look at the RS800 video above and you will see the tiller extension cannot be brought forward of the trapeze wire and then the forward hand cannot  - easily - do the hand over hand sheeting.

If you bend your knees, moving in, then you'll end up with the tiller extension behind the trapeze wire (and up by your ear) and the sheet in front, making the hand over hand thing difficult.

Great photo and looking good!


-------------
Steve


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 10:10pm
To be fair to Steve I think this was an early sail with the off boom. And he hadn't yet learnt the trick to pass the sheet around the trap handle like he talks about in a later video... 

Seems like you can take an extension through in front on a 3.7, which I think is the biggest factor in making it work. Meaning you can hand over hand sheet which changes everything (still think it would be difficult to hold sheet tension going in to tack). 

The 800 boom being alloy doesn't make any difference. It's not really designed for centre main or aft or anything, it's just an alloy tube.  


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Maybe the mainsheet could run forward along the boom, even right to the gooseneck, then back to a cleat.Maybe via a second block at the base of the mast. Some yachts do that, often double-sided with a winch either side.

That sounds a neat solution, deck cleat for holding tension in to tack, but no sheet running through middle of the boat so you can tack with the extension going forward and hand over hand sheet.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 10:44pm
I can't remember how the MPS is set up, that being the only single hand trapeze boat I've ever sailed and I was still learning the delicate art back then so it probably had a cleat. I recall the technique was to chuck the sheet into the centre of the boat as you came off the wire, then pick it up with the new hand as you went through, that suggests some form of deck mounted device and if you want a kite you will need to cleat off the main, not something I've had much experience of, of late, I don't have any cleats on either of my current boats, but they are both sheeted off the deck and I tend to favour rear sheeting off a bridle it overcomes my shortcomings with that kicker thing. The original Punk set up I felt was a work of art, but then not a trap boat. What might be needed is some sort of off boom set up that can be cleated at the boom, never seen anything like that, anyone know if such a device exists?

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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 19 Feb 18 at 11:38pm
I remember seeing swivel cleats designed to fit on the boom 'some decades ago' in a catalogue.
Not a UK thing?
I do quite like the idea of freeing up the cockpit space, OTOH, a merlin-sytle hoop does delineate the helm space from the crew space, a bit like the dog-guard in an estate car...


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 6:54am
Originally posted by iGRF

I can't remember how the MPS is set up, that being the only single hand trapeze boat I've ever sailed and I was still learning the delicate art back then so it probably had a cleat. I recall the technique was to chuck the sheet into the centre of the boat as you came off the wire, then pick it up with the new hand as you went through, that suggests some form of deck mounted device and if you want a kite you will need to cleat off the main, not something I've had much experience of, of late, I don't have any cleats on either of my current boats, but they are both sheeted off the deck and I tend to favour rear sheeting off a bridle it overcomes my shortcomings with that kicker thing. The original Punk set up I felt was a work of art, but then not a trap boat. What might be needed is some sort of off boom set up that can be cleated at the boom, never seen anything like that, anyone know if such a device exists?


You have - you are forgetting the RS100 prototype with the flip-flop boom sheeting.

MPS doesn’t have any of them mainsheet or bridle at the transom, you swing the extension around the back.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 9:10am
If you are going to have a spinny on the boat, won't some form of cleat for the main be essential? I've only seen single handers with spinnys having a cleat at deck level. Wouldn't it be too much to have to control the main and spinny sheets at the same time?

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 9:24am
Some Swift solos use flip flops off the boom iirc

http://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=423" rel="nofollow - http://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=423


Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 10:03am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Some Swift solos use flip flops off the boom iirc

http://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=423" rel="nofollow - http://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=423

It's one thing smacking your head on a relatively round and smooth boom but getting nutted by that fitting will really hurt, 'specially after spending $305 on it.




-------------
Steve


Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 10:23am
Originally posted by mozzy

To be fair to Steve I think this was an early sail with the off boom. And he hadn't yet learnt the trick to pass the sheet around the trap handle like he talks about in a later video... 

Yep, that is the trick  The extension needs to stay just behind the trap wire and your forward arm has to reach across your body to the extension, so, you can do the hand over hand thing and hold the extension and sheet in the helming hand.  This frees up your forward hand for the handle, control adjustments etc.   But.... when it is windy and the mainsheet is loaded up, you will be hauling on it with your forward arm across your body and this may not be the easiest in a long race.

Just another point worth raising.   In the RS800 and similar double handed boats, centre lining the boom is essential plus the leach can be held tight on the mainsheet tension if the rear bridle is accurately adjusted.   This is beneficial until you need to start freeing the mainsail and then the kicker takes over keeping the leach tight and this alters the mast and boom bend. 

On a single hander, the boom doesn't need to be centre lined, so, unless the bridle is a traveling type (think Laser), you will always need to rely on the kicker for leach tension.

The Contender seems to use a traveling bridle on the deck for a conventional centre main.   I think the idea is to loosen it in the lighter stuff to set the boom angle and leach tension on the mainsheet.  When the breeze is up, the bridle can be progressively tightened to allow a wider boom sheeting angle and with plenty of mainsheet tension, the leach holds tight.   Even windier, it is kicker tension all the way.

The MPS uses a centre main to the deck with a mainsheet jammer.  No bridles.


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Steve


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 10:54am
Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by mozzy

To be fair to Steve I think this was an early sail with the off boom. And he hadn't yet learnt the trick to pass the sheet around the trap handle like he talks about in a later video... 
Yep, that is the trick 

Not sure if we're talking at cross purposes but when I was saying Steve hadn't learnt the 'mainsheet trick featured in a later video' I was referencing the below.  Watching back the first video of Steve you will see he is passing the sheet to his tiller hand pre-tack and gybe, so then the sheet is running across his body and blocking is path across the boat.  

But, if you take the sheet in you forward hand to handle like this:
[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_UO2Wa7L5g[/TUBE]

And here is it in action in 800... You can see me taking the mainsheet with my front hand on the entry to gybe (and the jib sheet in tacks). But to do this you need to pass the sheet around the wire as you let go of the wire (video above), otherwise you'll be tangled. 
[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=LSa-7PA9rP0[/TUBE]

Still, with a deck cleat you don't need to learn that trick, as you can just cleat the main on entry, throw the sheet in the boat, and pick it up as you go through like I do in an old video here:
[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZufN-sl_RCA[/TUBE]



Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 11:40am
Thanks, Mozzy.   The slight of hand in the first video is a neat trick.   It may be a different story with the mainsheet under tension.  Also, as you unhook and swing in, the mainsheet will also be released which may be a good thing.  Of course, as you go out the other side, you will auto sheet in.

I'm gonna try that trick but I use a cleat.  It'll save me chucking the sheet into the boat and having to retrieve it.

I await some 'wire to wire" tacking tips from iGRF when he gets his Farr on the water.  


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Steve


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 12:07pm
It depends how quickly you can turn, but really you want to keep mainsheet tension entering a tack, or even increase it. This is very difficult to achieve without a cleat (unless you have a crew who has two hands to use!). You may need to ease the main on exit to allow a bear away, but you can do this by cracking a foot of main as you pick it up from the cleat mid tack. 

Gybing isn't so much of an issue as the ease on entry and slow sheet on as the apparent builds on the exit are both complimentary to the turn. 

The trick above is helpful even if using a cleat (just not critical), as it saves you having to pick up mainsheet as you go through. I take the jib sheet through with me in tacks in the 800, even though it is cleated and self taking. It means i'm ready to crack the jib in case we need to duck a boat or get hit by gust immediately, without the hassle of working down the mainsheet tail to where the jib is tied in. 



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by boatshed

]I await some 'wire to wire" tacking tips from iGRF when he gets his Farr on the water.  


What?Like stay on the one wire and go round the front like on a proper sail craft.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by boatshed

]I await some 'wire to wire" tacking tips from iGRF when he gets his Farr on the water.  


What?Like stay on the one wire and go round the front like on a proper sail craft.

[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWEs7BvE-ao[/TUBE] 
(from 50 seconds)


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 12:45pm
I used to sail a twin wire boat with a cleat in the middle, then changed it to off the boom sheeting. Initially I made up a fitting on the boom which was a  bit like:  _0_ there were two plates under the boom sticking out each side where the ratchet block attached. On each plate was a cam cleat. To cleat the main I had to sheet in a bit higher than normal, and a slight pull down was enough to uncleat.

It worked quite well and the cleats were angled up enough that I did not have a problem with catching on them. Over time I used them less and less, and when I broke one landing on it in a capsize I did not bother repairing and just went straight from the boom.




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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by boatshed


The MPS uses a centre main to the deck with a mainsheet jammer.  No bridles.

Incorrect; the Musto has a bridle ...




Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 5:02pm
And so it does!  Thanks.   Is that iGRF when he was in training with his Musto?

-------------
Steve


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 6:25pm
There’s only one man who can make Helly Hansen look good.... and it ain’t Grumpf


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 6:44pm
This legend makes trainers and a drysuit look good.

https://vimeo.com/109548002




Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 7:16pm
double post

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by boatshed


And so it does!  Thanks.   Is that iGRF when he was in training with his Musto?

Nah these might be though..




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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 7:52pm
Maybe try using the daggerboard Wink


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 8:09pm
There's a complete sequence of me trying to land which involved that gybe without the daggerboard.

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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 9:15pm
from iGRF "What?Like stay on the one wire and go round the front like on a proper sail craft.  "

Elvstrom did it on an FD, said it was fast but unreliable but could have been good if he'd had more time to practice...........


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Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 20 Feb 18 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by iGRF

There's a complete sequence of me trying to land which involved that gybe without the daggerboard.

Gybe with the kite up and no daggerboard? That was ambitious. 

 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Feb 18 at 10:17am
Originally posted by L123456



Originally posted by iGRF

There's a complete sequence of me trying to land which involved that gybe without the daggerboard.

Gybe with the kite up and no daggerboard? That was ambitious. 
 



I really had no idea, it really was a case of 'dinghy sailing' how difficult can it be? Guy Farrant had loaned me that boat so I entered our local 'ship race' race in it (never really ever having sailed anything before or since just for fun or practise)so I did try to learn to sail in a Musto Skiff, probably not the wisest decision in hindsight, but Arrogance is such a tricky mental illness, not yet recognised, but I'm sure will be one day..

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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 21 Feb 18 at 10:52am
Originally posted by iGRF



I really had no idea, ... 

However, you are now an expert so the future looks bright ...


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Feb 18 at 11:08am
Originally posted by Old Timer


Originally posted by iGRF


I really had no idea, ... 

However, you are now an expert so the future looks bright ...


Ha. an expert at being a beginner..

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