Normal handicap racing would prevent pumping so the handicap wouldnt be effected?

http://www.rs200sailing.org/documents/p1b308m95m1kiopctaq0g7i17783.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.rs200sailing.org/documents/p1b308m95m1kiopctaq0g7i17783.pdf  

Anything that is in your class rules applies all the time though; if you enter as a Laser, it must measure as described in the class rules. whether racing on PY, class racing at a club, or a world championships. That includes rules about how the boat can be sailed.

Where pumping is in class rules, (edit) it's controlled via Appendix P, which would require it to be in the SIs and for the Race Committee to then control it by raising O flag. So unlikely to ever happen, but possible I guess. I doubt anyone cares what it does to handicap though. 

Class rules sometimes make changes to the weight and type clothing that can be worn as well which again apply all the time.  

Further edit... Appendix P only is in effect if the SIs say so, no matter what class. So unless the handicap race has this in the SIs it's a none issue. Does beg teh question why either class has mention of this in their class rules, if it always has to be in SIs anyway. Surely it would be better to just stick it in the standard class SI's that event organisers can rip off the class website if running a class event.    https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/rules?part_id=41" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/rules?part_id=41

+1 here to that. I was opposed to pumping when it was legalised for windsurf racing (though it didn't stop me racing Raceboards and I learned how to do it pretty competitively at regional level). I'm 30 years older now and inevitably less fit so the cerebral aspects of dinghy racing hold much more appeal again.

But even if there was some scenario  where class rules allowed some classes to pump and some not in the same race (which I can't see there is), how would it be any different to any other change to class rules which have resulted in a change in performance? Basically, if the pumping was faster, you'd see it in returns and their number would slowly come down. 

I really don't think this has any relevance to handicaps. 

What seems more interesting, is that by inserting these rules in to class rules, it suggests the class is inviting organisers to have it in SIs and NoR. So it does seem like a slippage to free pumping. 

I'd be interested to know why, if the rule has to be echoed in the SI's why it's in the class rules? Is the rule in the Standard SIs for the Aeros and how many events will take up the class associations offer to use this? 

Well said Mike @ Cirrus..... a slippery slope indeed. Some of the other RS class events allowed you to hit the mark without sanction - when we ran various Nationals for them, this was one change that was not allowed. On the one time we let them run it, the Race Team witnessed  some pretty grim rule observance at the leeward gate. As Mike correctly points out, the law on unintended circumstances looms large.

Not long after the event just referred to, I was on a Protest Jury hearing the case of a couple of boats in a PY race that had bounced off the marks and sailed on - with their defence being "but we're allowed to hit them"......

I'm not sure what the rationale for the change might be.....from what I see from the Committee Boat, the good guys vote for this because they do it better (maybe they are doing it already and no one is protesting) - so the rich get richer. Fine if you like that sort of thing!

Both are physically demanding. One aerobically and one isometric strength. Which is harder will be personal I guess. 

I think the difference is when air rowing you are 'doing work' in the physics sense. You're putting energy in to the system. Hiking you aren't doing any 'work', you're just balancing a force. You're not putting energy in to the system. 

As a result hiking allows the boat to go quicker because you're able to harness more force from the wind, but 100% of the energy is still coming from the wind. But rewards for hiking hard are more marginal than pumping hard where you are directly powering your boat around the course.  

The Contenders allow pumping at their open events, the class is not made up of athletes or pros in the same manner that the finns are and pumping has definitely had an affect.

Pumping can easily be done wrong and slow you down and its become more about technique than brute force, in fact the best downwind sailors are still the ones that can maximise a single pump/waves rather than just row it, This might be to do with the extra length of the Contender or lesser rounded profile than the Finn. 

What pumping has done is make broad reaches /runs much more interesting and dynamic than just set and go. We have rules that removes pumping under 10kt and this avoids rowing as well, as there is less gains to it (outright rowing) as the breeze builds.

We have definitely benefited from this aspect and it is not a fit/young persons boat.

Sounds like you need a spinnaker ...

Sounds about right, that's how it was with Windsurfing back in the day 

Jim C - be very scared - I am in total agreement with you. 'Back in the day' this wasn't a problem in the Contender fleet as  we mainly sailed triangle-sausage and once it got to 12 kts or so (O flag territory)  you were looking to get out on the wire and power up along the reaches. On the runs the good guys, as you said, managed wind and wave very skillfully and made big gains - all within what would now be Rule 42.

However, if you shift any of the emphasis to sailing w/l, then being able to pump down the runs is one solution - but at the expense of the loss of a great deal of those subtle skills of picking the wave and maximising the drive - but within R42. Has being able to freely pump made the boat better in some way or has brute physicality been allowed to replace those marvelous skills of before. You look at the way the Finns go downwind now, with helms throwing themselves around in the boat and think "we got this one wrong".....

D

In Windurfer One Designs we only allow pumping downwind in Australia, which is a reasonable compromise since upwind pumping is easier to spot. In Italy they allow upwind pumping although due to the rig it's not that critical apart from in light winds. Having done nationals under both system it seems pretty easy to me which system is better, and it's not the one where you end up suffering to the same extent as in a bike race both upwind and down, while watching the fleet break apart.

I hated pumping in Raceboards, partly because I started sailing them under the original rules with a 15 knot wind minimum and normal windstrength much higher, so there was little pumping. Those rules created the class and it was then distorted into a light-wind class with pumping. After a few years sails were designed to work well when pumped at the expense of their high-wind qualities. Blecch

Dan, I'm not sure if you've done any windsurfer racing. Sure, Laser sailing is very physical but it's a completely different thing to unrestricted pumping. 

Surely you've done the same thing we've done when coming home from squad training in light winds where people are, for the fun of it, rolling the boat furiously? It's interesting for a few minutes but nasty after that. When one allows unrestricted pumping how does one then stop light beats from simply being legs where one stands in front of the mast rolling the boat furiously?

As most of the other windsurfer racers here have noted, the unintended consequences loom large. In the mid '80s we (ie those on national teams in major world titles etc) had no idea how far pumping would go and how much it would dominate windsurfing if the rules were changed. A few years later we had people who ignored windshifts because it was more important to just keep on pumping. It's a true Pandora's box.

I know if they allowed free pumping in Lasers, for example, I'd probably be out of the class like a shot, despite the fact that my background in pumping classes would give me an advantage.  

TBF though, if you sail a 600? surely there are times when you plane into a mark, gain an overlap on the Waybarge in front and claim water? It's all part of the game

"RRS 42.3 is added to: When the mainsail is pumped it shall be done through the bottom block with at least three parts of the mainsheet system."

Does this help at all?

Sort of the same thing. The Raceboards were originally known as Pan Am Boards since the Pan Am Cup in Hawaii was the first event with wind minimums - I've got one of Robby's protos for the production board known as the Pan Am. They were then used for World Cup Funboard racing and associated events, again basically offshore reaching races with wind minimums. IYRU Raceboard class grew out of that using the same kit with no wind minimums and later a WW/LW course.

Yes, there were issues with offshore racing with a lower wind limit of 15 (later 12) knots - but it was also an issue for those of us who essentially had a class taken over and fundamentally changed into something very different. And surf slalom became downgraded to flat-water slalom, dammit.

I did IMCO for a while against the Olympians and yes, we did pump a bit in higher winds, but it was nothing like what happens in light winds which is IMHO just 'orrible.

Completely wrong and once again, insulting. 

There is basically NO issue with concealed pumping under the current Windsurfer rules. Basically everyone knows that if one person starts to try to pump subtly then everyone will do it.

When you inferred that the recent organisers of the Windsurfer and Kona classes were inefficient and corrupt and favoured certain people you were definitely insulting. The rules work and there is no corruption and little if any cheating; some may happen in the pack.

I competed in the Italian titles three years ago and in a local nationals last season, against several Europeans. If your point is that you have recent European experience and I don't then it appears you may well be wrong. And I compete against people who took trophies in world titles where you were firmly mid fleet and completely uncompetitive, and I know they follow the pumping rules, do not cheat them, and are not protected by those running events.

You referred to two windsurfer classes that still restrict pumping and claimed that people in those classes cheated and/or that the organising bodies favoured people. Of course that it an insult to those classes and those who run them.

If you are looking at Italian Windsurfer events as proof that pumping cannot be banned then you are looking in the wrong place -they allow unrestricted pumping!

The fact is that your claim they can't prevent illegal pumping in windsurfing competitions is wrong since they can and do, as I have noted within the last few years of racing at national level where they DO restrict pumping. My post was therefore certainly not just saying "you're wrong". It was talking about current experience.

Windsurfing:

Mistral as GrF says allowed pumping at all times. 

That's what seems to happen with the Windsurfer class here. Control by peer pressure and common sense seems to be better than it was many years ago. One suspects that one of the reasons why peer pressure to control pumping could be stronger now that everyone has seen what happens if pumping gets out of control, and since we allow some pumping sailors get to see the downside. Everyone wants to avoid rule bending creeping back in and shredding the tactical aspect as you mention. Even the former world champs and Youth Worlds runners-up don't pump upwind.