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Star Sailors League

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12927
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 11:45am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Star Sailors League
Posted By: Old Timer
Subject: Star Sailors League
Date Posted: 05 Dec 17 at 9:25am
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/199971/Olympic-champions,-Volvo-and-AC-winners-converge" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/199971/Olympic-champions,-Volvo-and-AC-winners-converge

Who is bankrolling this?

Someone with a love for Stars is trying to keep the class on life support following its Olympic exclusion ... running this must take some serious money and I don't see any obvious title sponsor and I doubt the TV rights are worth much ...

How does this keep going?





Edit: Some info here:  http://www.starsailors.com/page/about-us-1" rel="nofollow - http://www.starsailors.com/page/about-us-1  some serious money behind this ...



Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 Dec 17 at 12:42pm
Not sure who is paying, but I do like to watch a bit of star sailing. It reminds me that for watching on screen, the speed isn't all that important. What draws me is how close they are and the characters involved. 

The list racers they have is incredible and the class really promotes close racing. $200,000 USD  prize purse certainly helps! Kinda put the Endeavour in perspective! 

It not very long ago that all the AC sailors would spend their downtime on the Star and Finn circuit. Seems to be Moths and A-Class and 49ers now.  

Watch this from about 29:30 in for the windward mark rounding. Great stuff!
[TUBE]Ocwk9n4TI7Q[/TUBE]


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 05 Dec 17 at 1:08pm
Slightly separate subject from the SSL but never forget that even without Olympic status the Star has significant grass roots following in some countries - just not here.

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 05 Dec 17 at 1:38pm
The start sheet is pretty rock and roll, I’d expect a number of them are on appearance money plus the prize pot, some serious cash behind that event. 


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 05 Dec 17 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Not sure who is paying, but I do like to watch a bit of star sailing. It reminds me that for watching on screen, the speed isn't all that important. What draws me is how close they are and the characters involved. 


A few years back when they had a py they were similar to a 505 surprisingly so not that slow either


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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Dec 17 at 8:58pm
They are 26' long and 15' 6" on the waterline. Length is the biggest factor in sub-planing conditions (i.e. 70% of dinghy/yacht racing).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 05 Dec 17 at 10:10pm
Excellent coverage liking the commentary from Diggers and the team. Only thing that isn't so great is the live animations


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 06 Dec 17 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Excellent coverage liking the commentary from Diggers and the team. Only thing that isn't so great is the live animations

Where are you watching it?


Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 06 Dec 17 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Watch this from about 29:30 in for the windward mark rounding. Great stuff!
That race was so good, I ended up watching it all the way through.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Dec 17 at 5:44pm
I watched initial coverage on home page on here and have since watched on youtube, very good coverage far superior to sailing coverage from Olympics


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 9:49am
Originally posted by 423zero

I watched initial coverage on home page on here and have since watched on youtube, very good coverage far superior to sailing coverage from Olympics


That wouldn't be difficult to be honest.

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Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 12:11pm
Yes

The Rio coverage was cr.p


Some of potentially the best Olympic sailing ever (out in the waves) was not even filmed

London much better


Posted By: elzorillo
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 4:12pm
Star sailors league racing was excellent.. how is it financed?? 


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by elzorillo

Star sailors league racing was excellent.. how is it financed?? 


I have no idea, some rich bloke putting in I’d guess. There is no obvious sponsor branding. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 8:57pm
I too have searched for financial backers.
Wikipedia states Star Sailors League set up to protect the interests of professional sailors, where they are based and who were instigators.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 9:43pm
%20" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2017/10/23/prestige-prize-money-nassau/
Scroll right down to the bottom and you'll see their grand slam aims.

The tie up between star class pros and the Americas cup plus a probably a wealthier than average demographic amoungst the class' ameature sailors probably helped them find a backer.

And... it's pretty good to watch. Hats off.


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 9:46pm
That port tack flyer by Torben Grael in race 8.

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Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 17 at 9:52pm
They seem very lively in waves, well not waves, rollers, for such a long boat.



Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 8:42am
I always thought they were an anachronism in the Olympics and never understood why they lasted so long.  

Having watched this racing, I have to admit I was totally wrong.  Close boat on boat action throughout with many of the top sailors in the world present. 

It still amazes me even at this level the really top sailors can still manage to pull through the fleet after a bad first beat.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 8:48am
They would grace the Olympics

Far more interesting to watch racing (albeit for sailors) than 49ers, Nacras etc.

And way way way better to watch than windsurfers


Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 11:53am
Anyone on here old enough to have sailed a Finn at Weymouth Olympic Week, sharing a course with Stars in big winds? Fantastic experience!

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PeterV
Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29
Warsash


Posted By: elzorillo
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by rich96

They would grace the Olympics

Far more interesting to watch racing (albeit for sailors) than 49ers, Nacras etc.

And way way way better to watch than windsurfers

Agreed.. as a (infrequent these days) windsurfer myself.. I'll be the first to admit it's like watching paint dry as a spectator sport and seeing them pump their way up the course is cringeworthy.  


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 4:14pm
kite boarding will be even worse if that gets in


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 4:54pm
Slalom and Wave sailing can make good TV, freestyle less so after you've seen your 20th 'Air Flakka'.......

The definitive wavesailing movie for me is still 'Tradewinds' by Jack McCoy. 


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

The definitive wavesailing movie for me is still 'Tradewinds' by Jack McCoy. 


A masterpiece! Could still remember all the words to Surfin' Reggae after 30 odd years. Might have to watch it again soon

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 7:40pm
I'm tempted to buy the 'digitally remastered' DVD but it's over £40 even with the current great exchange rate between GBP and AUD. Not available over here sadly (unless anybody knows different or if a few want a copy maybe we could save some postage.......)

My fave track is "Ordinary Day" BTW


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 7:53pm
Sam you can always watch it again here :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPoExoHRTk




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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 8:12pm
Peter unfortunately never made it to WOW (just before my time tbh) but first saw Stars offshore at Hayling and they are amazing boats to sail. They are just the scariest thing to sail downwind in big breeze tho - just so much power with that big main but they don't half go though!



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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 8:35pm
Here's a bit of related trivia - the script for Tradewinds* was written by the son of a Star class sailor.

After bringing the two strands of this thread back together I'd have to say I don't quite understand why pumping in windsurfers is seen as a bad thing, while the pumping they do in Stars in the SSL and Games is seen as quite all right. Is it just the frequency of the pumping or why do people think it's different?


* Great windsurfing movie, only approached by Heart & Soul IMHO. And yes, 'Surfing Reggae' is now this morning's ear worm for me too.



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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 9:33pm
I agree but I was against pumping on Windsurfers (though after it was allowed I did get pretty good at it) and would prefer it if it was still outlawed in dinghies. For me it detracts from the 'purity' (god that sounds pretentious but I hope you know what I mean) of the sport.

It's very hard to police though and allowing it up to a point must make it even harder


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by KazRob

Sam you can always watch it again here :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPoExoHRTk



Yup seen (and enjoyed) that one thanks. It would be nice to see a good quality version though which I hope the remastered version would be.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 08 Dec 17 at 11:05pm
Maybe Tradewinds has the answer to the thread on what to use in the Endeavour Trophy- just see who can sail a door the best

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Dec 17 at 10:51pm
Wow! That finish!



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Dec 17 at 11:07pm
No Brits in top 50 ranked Star sailors.
Very good coverage, well done to SSL.


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 8:09am
Paul Cayard was saying that he was slow offwind through the regatta. You can see why. He just sits there. Compared to the laser sailors they sail it downwind just like a laser( big surprise!) - vang off, loads of roll and bye the lee, and working the main -a bity scary possibly as you have to keep the rig in the boat, but when you can do that its really fast.


Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 8:49am
Bankrolled is certainly the operative word - I quote from Paul Cayard's final report:

As competitors we all owe a great deal of gratitude to Michel Niklaus for his passion and vision in creating the Star Sailors League. His vision for the next 5 years is to have 4 "Grand Slam" events followed by the Finals each year. He is purchasing 100 Stars and setting up bases in various venues around the world to make this vision come true.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:24am
This type of vision is what is needed across sailing in general.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 11:00am
The trouble with a vision that requires rich men with lots of money is that it leaves the rich men in utter control of your sport. As supporters of various soccer 'clubs' will tell you, the rich men may have ideas that don't align with yours, and if you are no longer a real club, but a rich man's possession, what the former members say doesn't count for much. Never mind what happens if you run out of rich men.

Personally I would much rather the sport relied on what the individual active sailors can fund out of their own resources. It may be less spectacular, but its a lot more in control of the people who count.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 11:46am
Jim, sounds like Laser and Sunfish woes.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 11:52am
Originally posted by JimC

The trouble with a vision that requires rich men with lots of money is that it leaves the rich men in utter control of your sport. As supporters of various soccer 'clubs' will tell you, the rich men may have ideas that don't align with yours, and if you are no longer a real club, but a rich man's possession, what the former members say doesn't count for much. Never mind what happens if you run out of rich men.

Personally I would much rather the sport relied on what the individual active sailors can fund out of their own resources. It may be less spectacular, but its a lot more in control of the people who count.


Originally posted by JimC

The trouble with a vision that requires rich men with lots of money is that it leaves the rich men in utter control of your sport. As supporters of various soccer 'clubs' will tell you, the rich men may have ideas that don't align with yours, and if you are no longer a real club, but a rich man's possession, what the former members say doesn't count for much. Never mind what happens if you run out of rich men.

Personally I would much rather the sport relied on what the individual active sailors can fund out of their own resources. It may be less spectacular, but its a lot more in control of the people who count.


Agreed Jim c. If the success of the sport relies on a rich guy bankrolling a series through procurement (and maintenance!!) of a lot of expensive and not very relevant keelboats for fat blokes, and paying appearance fees and big winners purses, it’s a bit of a worry. That said I would far rather watch that than ac foiling cats etc. Or most hp sailing.
If you had the same quality of coverage / location I reckon you’d have at least the same spectacle in laser / Finn.
On a positive note I think that it demonstrates my theory again that high level classic “slow boat” sailing is the best to watch for sailors and non sailors alike. You get a sense of style / technique / physicality/ character.
I think that the reason behind the choice of the star is that it’s a bit of a leveller insofar as you wouldn’t get a fraction of the “household names” in lasers or Finns, whereas star stalwarts And New Guys alike can race fairly equally in stars as long as the new guys have a decent ship and a suitably large and experienced crew. The stalwart crews look after the class specifics, and the rest is readily transferable from any other classic slow boat, which Even the new foiling stud guys will have sailed at one time or another.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 11:53am
Originally posted by MikeBz

Bankrolled is certainly the operative word - I quote from Paul Cayard's final report:
<span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Lucida Grande', 'Segoe UI', Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif; : rgb255, 255, 255;">As competitors we all owe a great deal of gratitude to Michel Niklaus for his passion and vision in creating the Star Sailors League. His vision for the next 5 years is to have 4 "Grand Slam" events followed by the Finals each year. He is purchasing 100 Stars and setting up bases in various venues around the world to make this vision come true.</span>


Good time to have a decent star boat mould :-)


Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 4:13pm

Y&Y 15 Sep 2015

The Star Sailors League Lake Grand Slam on Lake Neuchatel, Switzerland attracted 68 teams from 22 different countries, with 12 Olympic medallist taking part, and in any estimation that is a fantastic success. The winners were George Zsabo & Patrick Ducommun, the USA/Swiss duo won the four boat final to be crowned Swiss Open Champions and win $25,000, a quarter of the $100,000 Prize Purse. George Zsabo is a past Star World Champion and spoke candidly about the SSL.

"Three years ago, a group of Star Sailors sat down with Michel Niklaus to come up with the concept. We didn't even know what we were going to call it then, but when I think about how the SSL has grown exponentially from the meeting, I realise how far we have come in a short period of time. Sailors from other classes have been taking notice and want to get involved; sailors from the Laser, the Finn and other classes and that is really cool."

Michel Niklaus, a highly talented Star sailor himself, has a vision for the SSL, which is quickly taking shape and gaining worldwide acclaim; ISAF have just recognised the SSL regattas as special events alongside the America's Cup and Volvo Ocean Race. Michel Niklaus' goal for the SSL is to run five Grand Slam events by 2020. These will be locations chosen for their variation in conditions: Lake, City, Ocean and high wind speed, as well as the SSL Final in Nassau, Bahamas. Michel is quick to point out that he wants to work with ISAF not be a thorn in its side and ISAF are responding. It is also important to point out that regaining Olympic status for the Star is not an objective of the SSL, although the Olympic Committee is well aware of the SSL, IOC President Thomas Bach, attended the SSL Press Conference at the Olympic Museum in Lausanne.

The SSL organisation has invested considerable funds in delivering world class media exposure for the event, which rivals any other sail boat coverage. This does come with quite a price tag, but the SSL firmly believes that they have a product that will give value to parters and sponsors. These funds will be used to increase the prize money involved and the number of sailors that will benefit from it. By 2020, we could see up to 100 teams winning prize money during the season, with some serious money going to the top teams.

Pie in the Sky? I don't think so.

Consider the amount of money invested in big boat campaigns such as the America's Cup, Volvo Ocean Race or Maxi Racing. Attracting just a fraction of that to the SSL would allow the circuit to have professional sailors racing full time for big prize money. The SSL can not compare with other classes for speed but it does allow a huge variety of sailors to get involved. The sailors weight varies from 75-110kg and with an experienced crew, a helm from other classes can compete and win. In the SSL Lake Grand Slam, ISAF World No.1 Finn Sailor Ivan Gaspic, racing with Star crew Josh Revkin, won the quarter finals and semi finals and looked likely winners, before lake weed wrapped around their rudder in the final. Also age isn't a barrier in the class, with the eight sailors racing in the final in Grandson, ranging from 61 to 25 years old.

The format of racing was devised by the Star Sailors. The three day qualification racing is normal but the winner does get a bye for the next round (there is talk of changing that to a bye right through to the final). However, the objective of the qualifying rounds is to make the cut, this virtually takes out the tactic of 'hunting' and promotes the strategy of sailing fast and smart. The final rounds are all sudden death eliminations, and once again, fast and smart is the desired objective.

For spectators who don't understand sailing (virtually the entire world population), the knock out format makes it easy to know what is going on, especially with the Virtual Eye computer graphics. Expert commentary satisfies the hard core, 'petrol head' audience.

Bottom line is that the viewing figures for the SSL Lake Grand Slam rivalled those of other special events, which are sponsored by well known car and watch making companies. The SSL Final in Nassau should be even bigger, including the Prize Purse, which stands at $250,000. I have been involved in the SSL right from the first regatta, and what is really great about the set up is the attitude of the sailors. They are all friends and whilst there is mutual respect, there are no favours out on the race track.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/185600/SSL-on-course-to-shake-up-sailing" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/185600/SSL-on-course-to-shake-up-sailing


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Simon SUGmeister
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 5:03pm
Interesting that an old "slow" class can do this much bigger than the foiling cats, with much better known helms. Also, a good market for XXL crews!

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by JimC

The trouble with a vision that requires rich men with lots of money is that it leaves the rich men in utter control of your sport. As supporters of various soccer 'clubs' will tell you, the rich men may have ideas that don't align with yours, and if you are no longer a real club, but a rich man's possession, what the former members say doesn't count for much. Never mind what happens if you run out of rich men.

Personally I would much rather the sport relied on what the individual active sailors can fund out of their own resources. It may be less spectacular, but its a lot more in control of the people who count.

Absolutely agree. When the vi$$$ionary loses interest or moves on then that's it.  I think there is a place for these events and their patrons but they are not the future of sailing.



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 9:43pm
SSL needs to do what middle east is doing now, plan for when the oil/money runs out, make SSL a viable self funding organisation, this may involve chasing TV money and individual boat sponsors etc.


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:39pm
Who is Michel Niklaus,? Where does the dough come from?

If he wants to pile his dosh into sailing it’s fine with me but don’t bet the whole sport on the project. 


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 11:11am
http://sailinganarchy.com/2013/12/07/if-you-build-it-will-they-come/



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

http://sailinganarchy.com/2013/12/07/if-you-build-it-will-they-come/


what a load of b**locks that article is....

given most people who 'race', race 5-10 knot sh*t boxes ... be they dinghies or floating caravans... I'd say it makes perfect sense to pick something like the Star which offers the same game (close, slow tactical racing) albeit on a far more refined and elegant platform.  

extreme this, foiling that... p'ah.  Who cares anymore???  I'm sure they're fun to blast about on, and I'm not suggesting they don't offer great racing in their own right, but they're a million miles away from the game of sailing most people actually go play at the weekend. 

Well done for someone's altruistic endeavour actually being representative of the popular sport, whilst still attempting to give something of a top tier approach to the game.   


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Well done for someone's altruistic endeavour actually being representative of the popular sport, 

A Star ... representative of popular sport ... you could not pick a more elitist small keel boat.

Do it in Squibs and you'd have a point ... 

Clearly this bloke loves Stars and this whole project is to keep the Star on life support following it being kicked out of the Olympic circus.

He seems to model this on the Pro Tennis tour; pros tennis players use the same court, racket and balls as we do so if this wants to mimic that do it in Lasers not Stars ...


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 3:36pm
I think you’re getting wrapped in the specdifics of the class rather than the type of boat... hence missing my point.


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

Originally posted by turnturtle

Well done for someone's altruistic endeavour actually being representative of the popular sport, 

A Star ... representative of popular sport ... you could not pick a more elitist small keel boat.

Do it in Squibs and you'd have a point ... 

Clearly this bloke loves Stars and this whole project is to keep the Star on life support following it being kicked out of the Olympic circus.

He seems to model this on the Pro Tennis tour; pros tennis players use the same court, racket and balls as we do so if this wants to mimic that do it in Lasers not Stars ...


Your point is valid, and I agree, but if you held it in lasers, the "big names" even those who were down to 80kg and fit as f&ck (ie very few of them) would get their arses handed to them by some laser sailing lads that nobody has ever heard of. Most wouldn't get in top half of national laser fleets. And if you invited Scheidt / Goodison / Slingsby / a.n other laser god, it wouldn't be a race, it would be an absolute annihilation of the non laser sailors, so basically only the laser guys would turn up.which is not good for business / egos / close racing etc.


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 7:28pm
Squibs it is then if you want a race for old has beens. 

I don’t see Wimbledon being run for those players, it’s for the best athletes. 

Run it in Lasers, or D0s Wink, and let’s see a pro tour for athletes. 

Promote it with the same budget and we will soon get to know the names. 


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

 

A Star ... representative of popular sport ... you could not pick a more elitist small keel boat.

Do it in Squibs and you'd have a point ... 


I beg to differ as a ex Star owner. A few years ago there was well over 2000 active Stars in the world if my memory of the class year book serves me right. It has a vast spread of active sailors in many parts of the world that aren't the UK and active fleets all over the place in 21 'Districts' world wide. Just have a look at the 2017 calendar of 'trophy' events from the Star website and then tell me of another small keelboat class that has such a spread around the world
http://starclass.org/calendar/2017" rel="nofollow - https://starclass.org/calendar/2017
Not to everybody's cup of tea perhaps, but they are by no means rare (except in the UK it seems). 


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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 8:36pm
Squibs are surely UK only? Maybe there is a rich Briton who wants to buy 100 of them and put on a similar series? No, didn't think so.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 8:48pm
Think there are a few stars in wroxham, accept that they are pretty popular in the lakes in Europe and of course US of A. And everyone who sails them likes them, including pros doing it on their own dollar before SSL.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 8:56pm
While Stars are fascinating and very popular in some areas they are also rare (or non-existent, in terms of class activity) in Oceania, Africa and Asia these days. I think that list of regattas covers western Europe, North and South America - powerhouses to be sure, but still only three continents.

The Flying 15s top the list when it come to worldwide spread - they've got fleets in five nations in western Europe (UK, Ireland, Spain, France, Belgium), two countries in Africa, two or three nations in Asia (dunno where Mauritius comes in), two nations in Oceania, and still a minute bit of activity in a corner of North America. 

Squibs are arguably more elitist that Stars - at least every major country has a history in Stars and a depository of knowledge in Olympic-level Star sailing. 

The SA article is silly. As TT says, it's arguably just silly to claim that the best sailors are in the tiny group of classes they mention. Ironically, the Star class itself used to use the same circular logic - they used to claim that Star sailors were the best because the Stars had the best competition, and back up the claim that they had the best competition by saying they had the best sailors.

It's a great series, though, and a series that is based on small keelboats is arguably much less elitist than any of the other major events we can watch on the net. 



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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 9:11pm
Michel Niklaus likes Stars and wants to make it premier small keelboat class.
Looks like he has cherry picked things he likes from various sports, Tennis, Golf and probably Formula 1.
The Million pounds he has spent on event in Nassau, lets put it in perspective, recently it was reported on the news that someone spent £386,000 on a bottle of champagne and gave a toast with it.
Finding it difficult to see anything negative in what he is trying to achieve or achieved.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 9:15pm
Chris 249 - that depends if you count Russia as Asian or European :-) although there appears to be a Chinese fleet according to the WS website as they paid class dues. Can't imagine that's just hedging bets against a return to the Olympics really.
The FF is a great boat and you can see it's spread in Commonwealth countries in the way as the Star did in the others. Glad to say they're not mutually exclusive

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 9:38pm
I think it's a very cool thing he's done... is it the future or way forward? Well, for me, I'd like to see something a bit more financially sustainable, but the format really produced great viewing i thought.

Sailing Anarchy have a dig at the 'platform'... I wouldn't take much notice of much that gets put of the front page of that site. They seem completely muddled on what is good for the sport. 

However, as a viewer, the move to a slower more 'grunt' boat works for me on screen. Viewing in person the fast and foiling cats are perceptibly fast (or at least you can tell they're moving). But on screen, less so. As soon as you need a multi depth focus to get two boats in one picture all the context is lost. Slower boats racing neck and neck are really good viewing in this regard. 

The best thing, though, is the effort to pull top names in. Even if some are past their best. The star class is a really good platform for this. Does is matter if stars are popular or widely sailed? Not for me, no. The boat could have been unique to event; anything that allows a wide range of sizes to get in and compete on a relatively even footing (with the help of an experienced crew). 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 10:00pm
F1 cars are the fastest around a 'traditional' racecourse, i.e. tarmac, purpose built and not a 'Stock Car' (there's misnomer if ever there was one) oval. The complaints about the quality of the racing are usually focused on the limited overtaking and wheel to wheel 'racing' they provide. Slower classes ('touring cars', another misnomer) are generally considered to provide better 'racing'. Could the same not be said of sailing?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 10:10pm
Its very hard to predict what makes for a popular spectator sport. Formula one is endlessly processional compared to bike racing, nothing like as crash and burn as touring cars, and yet has umpteen times the audience.

There are no international keelboat classes, they're all regional, although the Star is probably about the widest distributed. Its still basically a rich westerner's boat though.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 10:59pm
Absolutely true Smile The point is though that the money fired in F1's direction is orders of magnitude greater than pretty much any other form of motor sport yet the best 'racing' is to be found in much lower budget formulas.

Either way the elitist stuff is unlikely to harm grass roots dinghy racing even if it doesn't attract new sailors by the busload.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 11:03pm
I've enjoyed watching it, good racing in boats that reward old fashioned sailing skills and tactics.  Obviously the Star is a rich man's boat, but cheap compared to a big yacht and it seems a much more fun use of money to fund the SSL than do a TP52 campaign.  
Kudos to Goodison too, winner in boats as diverse as Moths and Stars. Speaking of which, I am surprised the Moth circuit hasn't evolved into a prize money tour yet.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 12 Dec 17 at 10:14am
I wonder if the current bankroller is laying down some cash in the (vain?) hope that at some point in the future venues will pay to host the events. I have no idea whether or how much the Bahamas put in. I do know that Barbados have been generous with sponsorship to hold several high-profile dinghy championships there, AND they believe they have recouped that investment through the  extended tourist season that the events brought about.,

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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Dec 17 at 10:26am
Originally posted by JimC

Its still basically a rich westerner's boat though.

most recreational sailboats are....



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Dec 17 at 10:39am
Originally posted by turnturtle


Originally posted by JimC

Its still basically a rich stupid westerner's boat though.

most recreational sailboats are....


ftfy

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Dec 17 at 1:15pm
You can pick up a race ready older Star for around 3,000 dollars.


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 12 Dec 17 at 6:13pm
BTW I was only joking about Squibs. 




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 10:13pm
This i hadn't seen before! 

[TUBE]v=lLT92O7H5G4[/TUBE]


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 8:35am
I assume tiller extensions and toe straps were banned?

Great film.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 12:30pm
How often did they lose a crew or helm over the side in those days?

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 1:09pm
Nasty if a boat side swiped, no pfd's either.
This thread refreshingly technical and non confrontational.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 1:25pm
IIRC, the introduction of hobbles and harnesses for Star crews at least was comparatively recently - ?90s?. Much later than seen on Solings at the games, anyway. 

Bit ridiculous that RC44 don’t set the boat up properly for droop hiking. 


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 1:27pm
This thread refreshingly technical and non confrontational.

Anyone know the PY of a Star?


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 1:59pm
917 was the last one published in 1986. At a complete guess that might have been based on results from the Wroxham (Norfolk Broads) fleet which I don't think had many modern boats at the time.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 6:23pm
Same as Alto, no slouch then.
What PY would modern  Star sail under ?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 6:35pm
Well, its a big long boat, and length is nearly everything... I have no idea what a modern one would perform off, but if downwind performance is dependant on the forward hand standing up and violently rocking the mast...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 7:32pm
were they allowed to do this in handicap racing ?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 8:49pm
I doubt any have raced under PY since this came in.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 8:58pm
I've certainly raced one under PY (about 10 years ago) with the crew on the foredeck downwind but never (knowingly) rocking from side to side. TBH it's such a big boat it's a bit daunting sailing around responsibly with smaller boats as everything's so out of scale and different compared to them. It would be really easy to cause carnage with a 10' long jib stick and the 14.5' long boom, never mind tacking angles that defy logic

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:02pm
When did the rule come in?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by KazRob

I've certainly raced one under PY (about 10 years ago) with the crew on the foredeck downwind but never (knowingly) rocking from side to side. TBH it's such a big boat it's a bit daunting sailing around responsibly with smaller boats as everything's so out of scale and different compared to them. It would be really easy to cause carnage with a 10' long jib stick and the 14.5' long boom, never mind tacking angles that defy logic


Curious what the tacking angles are?


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:12pm
What rule - on hiking harnesses and straps (hobbles aren't allowed and crews use a double strap that you just turn your feet around inside of). I think in the late 60s  - have a look here, especially 'fat' Dennis Connor and his crew in a double hike on page 9 of the PDF
http://starclass.org/classic/history/ABPictorialHistory.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://starclass.org/classic/history/ABPictorialHistory.pdf


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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:27pm
I'm not sure on exact numbers for tacking angles but my usual trick of tacking when I can just see the mark when looking as far round behind my rear shoulder when hiking always ended up in being waaay over the layline in the Star. I learned to judge it looking over my forward shoulder and teh crew's head as he hiked but it did vary depending in breeze so never measured it. Prob 75-80deg if I had to guess tho

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:30pm
I was thinking of the wobbly downwind rule.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:36pm
Rupert - I'm not sure as I think it might just be a SSL rule but I understand there is a proposal to include it in the Star championship rules above a certain windspeed. The crew has always been allowed on the foredeck as far as I know but around 15 years ago it was found to be a lot faster downwind as long as you could keep the boat upright (they have been know to capsize from a death roll) and the crew on the boat (it can be a bit slippy up there). Standing up tho allows the crew to spot the wind better as well

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by KazRob

I'm not sure on exact numbers for tacking angles but my usual trick of tacking when I can just see the mark when looking as far round behind my rear shoulder when hiking always ended up in being waaay over the layline in the Star. I learned to judge it looking over my forward shoulder and teh crew's head as he hiked but it did vary depending in breeze so never measured it. Prob 75-80deg if I had to guess tho


OK, very good for dinghies, but in the mix for racing keelboats. I'm sure the chines make a difference.

I would be curious which vessels point the highest upwind, I suspect the supermaxi's like Wild Oats XI must be right up there. Unfortunately I'll never get to experience it first hand.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Dec 17 at 7:55am
Thing is, because of the affects of apparent wind, to point really high a boat must be both very low drag with a very efficient rig, but also rather slow for its size. A speed limited keelboat is always going to be favourite.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 Dec 17 at 8:30am
Originally posted by rb_stretch

 I would be curious which vessels point the highest upwind,

After many years racing I can conclude the vessel that points the highest is always the one starting immediately to leeward of me! 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Dec 17 at 8:34am
Apart from Mozzy's answer, which is spot on, I'd think that boats like the Metre classes would rank very high on pointing ability. The old AC monohull also.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 Dec 17 at 9:02am
Those prop / turbine boats go directly in to the wind. The foils (prop) and sails (turbine blades) are constantly tacking while the hull travels directly upwind. 

But in terms of a conventional boat where the hull tacks then Id be surprised if it wasn't an IACC. You need a boat that is very efficient in every regard except carrying a load of lead to stop it building too much apparent. IACC fits that bill. 


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Dec 17 at 10:18am
"Those prop / turbine boats go directly in to the wind. The foils (prop) and sails (turbine blades) are constantly tacking while the hull travels directly upwind. "

Man you're frying my brain on that one Confused. Trying to use O level physics, opposite and equal, friction losses............................. ?


edit add. BTW. with their very high speeds and apparent wind moving forward what angles do foiling boats get to true wind?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 Dec 17 at 2:12pm
The wind turns the turbine, which turns a propeller under water. The boat moves upwind directly in to the wind. 

The blades on the turbine are effectively sails, but instead of pushing the boat in a direction of travel resisted by foils like conventional boat, they rotate and power a prop, which then pushes the boat in whichever direction you choose, including directly in to the wind. 

The last AC cup probably had the highest apparent wind angles ever seen. But because the boats were so fast the TW angle wasn't so impressive. 



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