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New boat

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: America's Cup
Forum Discription: Your thoughts on challenges to win the 'Auld Mug'
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12913
Printed Date: 22 Jul 18 at 12:58pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: New boat
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Subject: New boat
Date Posted: 20 Nov 17 at 9:05pm
I thought the Kiwis would bring it back to a sailing event. I was wrong.



Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Nov 17 at 9:18pm
Looks like luffing someone will have interesting consequences now, given there will be a scythe out to windward.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Topper 44496, Minisail 3131, Minisail 3446


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 20 Nov 17 at 9:25pm
clearly luffing will be banned- it spoils the punters view of the advertising banners


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 20 Nov 17 at 9:49pm
Massive amounts of new development for what? 

Donít see any big advantage to the change from the 50s. Apart from the politics. 

https://youtu.be/rx2qG_YMrDs" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/rx2qG_YMrDs


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Nov 17 at 10:11pm
Windward foil is going to have to telescope into side of Hull, will look similar to Dagger boards on AC cats from a distance, could still do a considerable amount of damage with a side swipe.


Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 8:29am
Don't think it will as it is the foil that is windward foil that provides the righting moment.

There would seem to be a lot of potential for significant keel and hull damage match racing these boats.  Has it really been thought through?


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 8:56am
Not just keel and hull damage either - one of those scything over the windward side of the opposition could put some of the crew out of action permanently.

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 9:25am
What a load of curmudgeons you lot are ;-) I am sure the AC design team are well aware of the potential dangers and will have thought about this in the rules yet to be published. One option "could" be to have an electronically monitored exclusion zone of, say, 2 foil lengths. It wont stop boat-on-boat duels, just make it safer. Either way, IMHO, this moves foiling on by many levels and is truly an exciting step for the AC. The 50footers were not big enough to be a worthy spectacle. These 75ft preying mantis beasts will be incredible. Bring it on!

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Chris


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 9:33am
I suppose we just have to accept that we have lost it as a premier sailing event. The foiling/acrobatics are I assume needed to make it more interesting for a non sailing audience. Why dont they just stay in virtual reality mode and save a load of money !


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 9:52am
Looks like they will still need the non-sailing grinders to provide the power to swing those foils about all the time but they wont get a rest while they cross the boat this time, they will just grind for the entire race!


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 9:58am
Originally posted by GybeFunny

Looks like they will still need the non-sailing grinders to provide the power to swing those foils about all the time but they wont get a rest while they cross the boat this time, they will just grind for the entire race!


I am a keen cyclist, perhaps there will be something for me to watch after all?


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 9:50pm
Is it confirmed they're not allowed engines to be able to power the hydraulics this time around?

Requiring grinding for hydraulic pressure just moves it from having a good team of sailors to a good team of meat heads 

It would also make it interesting in terms of tactics. do you go for less crew and less weight or more crew and less work 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Nov 17 at 10:07pm
I would be surprised if this design is used, probably trying to wrong foot opponents.
Will probably be another cat, they look more technical than a mono-hull, it's all about TV.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 9:14pm
What a lot of negativity!  Fear of change I guess?  It looks to me like this has more trickle down potential than the cats, and that's got to be a good thing.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 9:51pm
If something looks badly thought out, despite a slick video, I'm not sure being positive about it is the way to go. As for trickle down, I'm not sure I want to race against dinghies with blades slicing through the air at head level.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Topper 44496, Minisail 3131, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 10:13pm
Our poor club Enterprise been in the wars again, just been repaired from last bash, now had shroud ripped out, mast fell like a tree onto another boat, no one hurt, looked spectacular.
Now add this new boat into the mish mash of club handicap racing, ouch.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 10:23pm
In what way does it look badly thought out?  Don't trust the exposed windward foil?


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 22 Nov 17 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by A2Z

What a lot of negativity! †Fear of change I guess? †It looks to me like this has more trickle down potential than the cats, and that's got to be a good thing.


I just enjoy watching racing, there are loads of video games already for those that enjoy them


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Nov 17 at 8:13am
Originally posted by A2Z

In what way does it look badly thought out? †Don't trust the exposed windward foil?


Looks to me like tacking will cost even more time than it did in the multihulls, meaning tactics are once more going to be defeated by boat speed in the majority of races.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Topper 44496, Minisail 3131, Minisail 3446


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 23 Nov 17 at 11:03am
Can't wait to see Ben pulling these aggressive dial downs with the full Swiss army knife on display.
[TUBE]v=8NYXnu8CZu0[/TUBE] 
Foils outside max beam are a massive negative for match racing. Could be a good trickle down for ocean racers though where proximity and frequent manauvers aren't as much part of the game. Having said that, these weight foils will be battery powered. Not sure how that will trickle down to ocean racers.  

Otherwise I think the racing will be less close. Essentially, once foiling the new boats won't be much different to the cats (except T foils with flaps moth style, rather than whole foil rake). However, as a 'launch pad' for foiling the mono-hull will have much more drag and much less righting moment. The speed differences will be huge... as if they weren't big enough in the cats. 

Personally, it seems like a lot a effort just so we can the thing a monohull. I like the Cats foiling, and I liked the old monohulls too. They produced different racing each compelling in their own way. This seems like a worse of both worlds design (for match racing). 


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 23 Nov 17 at 4:15pm
I'm still trying to work out how these things are going to stay upright when not moving forward at pace with no keel and 100ft mast. I know they show a 'dock position' for the Foils, but unless the foils are made of lead, this an't going to work. A bit oxymoronic to say the least. If they use water for blast, water when in water weights the same as the water around it. Plus they are going to scythe to death the apposing crew off the deck in the Pre Start if they even attempted a luff. i.e this means less match racing than the Cats, which was pretty good from my perspective! Basically there's potential for a lot of death on the AC hands, with all the capsizing and close quarters danger, in my view.

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http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 23 Nov 17 at 4:55pm
1-1.5 tonnes per foil (canting keel?). Made of steel, maybe with some lead. 
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup---Dan-Bernasconi-explains-the-foiling-AC75---part-1/158994" rel="nofollow - http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup---Dan-Bernasconi-explains-the-foiling-AC75---part-1/158994

When in docking mode they should be just heavy enough to keep the boat upright. The should also be just heavy enough to self right (whilst moving them around as the boat comes up). 

Presumably they should provide enough righting moment that the boat can move forward, get flow over the foil which will then providing further righting moment (lifting surfaces well to leeward of boat mass), before really cranking on the power.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 23 Nov 17 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

1-1.5 tonnes per foil (canting keel?). Made of steel, maybe with some lead. 
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup---Dan-Bernasconi-explains-the-foiling-AC75---part-1/158994" rel="nofollow - http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup---Dan-Bernasconi-explains-the-foiling-AC75---part-1/158994

When in docking mode they should be just heavy enough to keep the boat upright. The should also be just heavy enough to self right (whilst moving them around as the boat comes up). 

Presumably they should provide enough righting moment that the boat can move forward, get flow over the foil which will then providing further righting moment (lifting surfaces well to leeward of boat mass), before really cranking on the power.

Thanks Mozzy, not seen that till your post.

1.5 tonnes of polished knife at head height traveling a 40 knts. That will be interesting. I wonder if Sabatier will be a 'headline' sponsor?


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http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Nov 17 at 7:14pm
you will be able to make "room at the mark"



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Nov 17 at 9:23pm
Yes, head-room at the mark.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Topper 44496, Minisail 3131, Minisail 3446


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 27 Nov 17 at 10:00am
Part two of the Dan Bernasconi interview:  http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup---Dan-Bernasconi-explains-the-foiling-AC75---Part-2/159074" rel="nofollow - http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup---Dan-Bernasconi-explains-the-foiling-AC75---Part-2/159074


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 27 Nov 17 at 12:43pm
Quote: "Not designed to be super stable". This is going to be like 'Ben Hur's" chariot race! I think Ben needs to call his AC75 - 'Boataseaa'.

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http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Nov 17 at 1:48pm
So we've gone from 14' two person dinghies via 18' three person and 30' 9 person dinghies to 75' 12 (or so) person dinghies.........

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep" (now sold but considering a second (mk3) Blaze as her replacement)


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Nov 17 at 5:46pm
Oooh 1.5 ton blades whizzing about on an unstable platform.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 8:54am
Well I do think back to the 'you won't be able to match-race foiling cats' comments back when they were introduced to us.  While it changed the game it certainly wasn't anything like the non (match) event predicted.  So I'll wait and see.

I think there will be technological answers to an exclusion zone around those foils.....

But for sure they're going to do a lot of leeway at slow speeds!


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 11:31am
Originally posted by sargesail

Well I do think back to the 'you won't be able to match-race foiling cats' comments back when they were introduced to us.  While it changed the game it certainly wasn't anything like the non (match) event predicted.  So I'll wait and see.

I think there will be technological answers to an exclusion zone around those foils.....

But for sure they're going to do a lot of leeway at slow speeds!

I'm all for doing different. Loved the cats. I just think it might be a tad dangerous, is all.


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http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Mar 18 at 12:46pm
Well, it seems the new AC rule has been published...

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/203544/Americas-Cup-class-rule-published-ahead-of-time" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/203544/Americas-Cup-class-rule-published-ahead-of-time

You can get to the actual rule at the link below. I must be getting old: I started skimming it and gave up bored.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jlbGdGZ-XERd63SGESoMamTgGZdRiPZJ/view" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jlbGdGZ-XERd63SGESoMamTgGZdRiPZJ/view

Whatever the merits and otherwise of this new style of boat, I would like to have been party to the thinking that evaluated all the perceived issues with recent AC platforms, and produced this as the best possible fix to those issues. Their evaluation of the problems must have been very different to mine...


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Mar 18 at 12:53pm
People trying to be radical for the sake of it, having dug themselves a hole by saying it would go back to monohulls.

Real radical would have been to run it in something slow and tactical this time round. Maybe 80 foot long Fireflies, with 10 people running back and forth for the roll tacks. Teamwork, not technology, would really win out then.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Topper 44496, Minisail 3131, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Mar 18 at 2:12pm
Going to end in tears.
The best helms still manage to crash, what a crash will be like with that blade?


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 30 Mar 18 at 6:43pm
The best helms still manage to crash, what a crash will be like with that blade?

Looks pretty scary to me. Most concerning, from the point of view of the sailing from my point of view is that the foil is both so vulnerable and dangerous that close quarters racing is going to be something to avoid. That's a real shame. 


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59



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