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Laser mainsheet -- cleat or no cleat?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12782
Printed Date: 28 Mar 20 at 10:12am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Laser mainsheet -- cleat or no cleat?
Posted By: Eisvogel
Subject: Laser mainsheet -- cleat or no cleat?
Date Posted: 06 Jul 17 at 2:36pm
I bought a Laser 1 earlier this year, and it has a cleat on the mainsheet block. A fellow club member said I should get rid of it, and recommended a ratchet block instead. Another possibility is to put cleats on either side deck.

I usually sail an Ent, without mainsheet cleat, and I generally don't like cleats on the main. However, I find it's nice and easy to just cleat the main when messing about with the controls on the Laser (which I do more often than on the Ent). One drawback is that the mainsheet often gets snagged in the block when it is twisted around, and can't run freely. Not sure if that would also be an issue with a simple block.

What is your experience? Will a ratchet block be sufficient to hold the main while pulling on the kicker? Should I put cleats on the sides?


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Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986



Replies:
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 06 Jul 17 at 3:11pm
side cleats are very useful


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 06 Jul 17 at 4:29pm
Personally I wouldn't sail a Laser without side cleats. I'm well aware that those at the top of the fleet spurn them, and if you are aiming for that sort of level then it's probably best not to get in the habit. For mortals I'd suggest that not having side cleats ends up trying to appear professional at the cost of performance, and ease of handling! 

While cleats on centre mainsheet blocks work well on many classes I think the geometry of the Laser means that side cleats are much better and easier to use.



-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 06 Jul 17 at 4:46pm
Sheet loads in the laser aren't high, so you should be able to just hold it in your tiller hand while you adjust other control lines.  Some people do use the side cleats, but most find that they get in the way and stop you from using the optimum body position in light airs.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 06 Jul 17 at 5:03pm
You will also need a ratchet

The 'new' controls do make it easier to pull on the kicker etc without cleating the mainsheet but the ability to do so is very useful for the average sailor


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 06 Jul 17 at 10:08pm
If you have the pulley and block fitted to the laser a long time ago time it is really awful. I had one and got rid of it asap. I replaced it with a harken ratchet block and use a 8mm mainsheet. Works fine and is easy to hold. I would not fit side deck cleats as they are so painful to sit on. I also wear rubber gloves which almost hold onto the mainsheet by themselves which really helps as well.


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 9:05am
Yes, it's an old block-and-cleat arrangement with sharp edges... easy to cut your legs on it when sitting forward!

Thanks for all the replies -- I will try just with the ratchet block, and if I find I can't handle it, I'll fit side deck cleats.


-------------
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 9:56am
Go completely cleatless. A good ratchet block is enough. The best ones are probably the old freddie blocks which are now sold by ronstan. The black one with the cross drilled holes in the sheave.

As for the mainsheet... 8mm is way too thick. It won't run through the blocks properly and also when sailing downwind in light wind it will pull the boom to the centre with its weight. The best option is either the rooster 7mm or the Southern Ropes sheets. They do a 5.5 and a 6mm, yellow and red respectively. I always used their 6mm red sheet. A good pair of builders gloves is needed in any breeze.


Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 10:09am
Don't want to be a fun sponge, and this horse has already bolted long before barn doors were jammed closed. Isn't the Laser a one design. Isn't a ratchet block and cleats specified? and technically not having them, or a centre jammer be out of class


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 10:24am
The Laser has always had the centre jammer and side cleats as allowable alternatives.


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 11:08am
Originally posted by JohnJack

Don't want to be a fun sponge, and this horse has already bolted long before barn doors were jammed closed. Isn't the Laser a one design. Isn't a ratchet block and cleats specified? and technically not having them, or a centre jammer be out of class

There are a number of options available under the class rules for all your systems.


Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by PeterG

I'm well aware that those at the top of the fleet spurn them,

Not so sure about that. Robert Scheidt, arguably the most successful Laser sailor of all time utilises side cleats for tacking. And I've seen some top Laser sailors using the cleats to set the mainsheet upwind in lighter breeze.



Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Sheet loads in the laser aren't high, so you should be able to just hold it in your tiller hand while you adjust other control lines.  Some people do use the side cleats, but most find that they get in the way and stop you from using the optimum body position in light airs.

The sheet loads seem pretty high to me.
Mine does not have cleats, and I often find I'm sat where they would be.
Maybe I don't use enough kicker and sit too far forwards?
I don't wear gloves except for crewing anything with a big kite or the depths of Winter.


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 3:24pm
Using mainsheet cleat in a small dinghy?........Aaaaargh.

I did it once, to roll a fag going round Sheppey , it felt so totally wrong that I gave up smoking shortly after. Wink


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 7:40pm
Use em all the time, did back in the day in my OK do today in the Spice. Haven't got one on the Blaze as I've gone off-the-boom but it had one before and I've still got the bits. If I stay centre mainsheet on the Supernova I may fit the redundant cleat from the Blaze.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


Originally posted by bustinben

Sheet loads in the laser aren't high, so you should be able to just hold it in your tiller hand while you adjust other control lines.  Some people do use the side cleats, but most find that they get in the way and stop you from using the optimum body position in light airs.
The sheet loads seem pretty high to me. Mine does not have cleats, and I often find I'm sat where they would be.Maybe I don't use enough kicker and sit too far forwards?I don't wear gloves except for crewing anything with a big kite or the depths of Winter.


In a breeze you'll be needing to use sh*t-loads (I think that's the correct term) of kicker to keep the sail flat, and the mainsheet controls the sheeting angle.

Sitting toward is good in the lighter stuff, and I've seen a number of foreheads gashed by cleats, so I would remove them from the decks.

I use centre jammers on the OK, but you are sat above it so it is easy to release. In a laser you are sat at the same level as the cleat, so I can imagine having problems releasing it bearing off on a breezy day.


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 7:15am
The fact that at least 80% of lasers on the circuit don't use the cleats is probably more relevant than the fact that some of our forum users have cleats on various other dinghies. You don't need or want cleats on your laser - FACT.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 8:53am
Unless you like bum bruises from deck cleats! Mainsheet jammers attached to the final block are the work of the devil in pretty much any class.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:10am
As I said just now:

Originally posted by transient

Using main sheet cleat in a small dinghy?........Aaaaargh.

. Wink

Using a main sheet cleat on most small dinghies is not good practice and on a Laser it certainly isn't common practice. 

You will not be in full control of the boat with the main sheet cleated just as you wouldn't be in full control of a car with the throttle jammed open ( best analogy I can think of at the mo).
A mainsail needs constant attention and trimming to maintain speed and control heel. 

Everything you need to do in a Laser can be done with two hands and no cleats. (apart from rolling fags Wink)


Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:33am
Originally posted by laser193713

The fact that at least 80% of lasers on the circuit don't use the cleats is probably more relevant than the fact that some of our forum users have cleats on various other dinghies. You don't need or want cleats on your laser - FACT.


Difficult to generalise really. Keith Wilkins won more Laser Masters World titles than anyone whilst using a centre jammer, so each to their own



Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:52am
You don't need or want cleats on your laser - FACT

Don't claim opinions as fact. Even as alternative facts. I most certainly do want cleats on my Laser and having done both I'm quire sure about it. The fact that some are happy without and prefer things that way is not contested - I'm certainly not going to try and impose my preferences on others, so perhaps you could do the same? 


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:56am
Originally posted by GarethT

Originally posted by RS400atC


Originally posted by bustinben

Sheet loads in the laser aren't high, so you should be able to just hold it in your tiller hand while you adjust other control lines.  Some people do use the side cleats, but most find that they get in the way and stop you from using the optimum body position in light airs.
The sheet loads seem pretty high to me. Mine does not have cleats, and I often find I'm sat where they would be.Maybe I don't use enough kicker and sit too far forwards?I don't wear gloves except for crewing anything with a big kite or the depths of Winter.


In a breeze you'll be needing to use sh*t-loads (I think that's the correct term) of kicker to keep the sail flat, and the mainsheet controls the sheeting angle.

Sitting toward is good in the lighter stuff, and I've seen a number of foreheads gashed by cleats, so I would remove them from the decks.

I use centre jammers on the OK, but you are sat above it so it is easy to release. In a laser you are sat at the same level as the cleat, so I can imagine having problems releasing it bearing off on a breezy day.

It's the puffy days when I find the sheet loads high.
Breeze off the land, so quite variable. You don't want the sail too flat or you stop dead in the lulls, it's fairly hard on the sheet in the puffs. I've got a little carbon harken ratchet at the mo, and what I think is Rooster sheet. I might try a different block. Maybe a softer rope would grip in the block better.
I end up jamming the sheet on the gunwhale on a long tack.
Lots of people here use cleats on the deck and don't go slowly or fall in often.
I've not tried a Mk2 sail yet, that might be easier as they like a bit more kicker in the light stuff?
I've noticed that not using 'enough' kicker results in the traveller not always moving to the same place, despite the horse (bit of string) being pretty tight.


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:57am
Originally posted by JohnJack

Don't want to be a fun sponge, and this horse has already bolted long before barn doors were jammed closed. Isn't the Laser a one design. Isn't a ratchet block and cleats specified? and technically not having them, or a centre jammer be out of class

being a fun sponge doesn;t come into it 

fitting  or not of side deck cleats is optional , as is the exact model of cleat  (  although for the use the get the cheapies  that are / were  the standard  cleat  are more than adequate )

fitting a  centre jammer  is also allowable,  the  last block  is the one pieceof  mainsheet hardware that is  relatively  free choice on the laser. 



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 3:25pm
It is a matter of preference. I never had any on my Lasers but I sail inland on a small puddle where tacking on shifts is key and the legs are not that long.

On more open water you might want cleats.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by sandgrounder

Originally posted by laser193713

The fact that at least 80% of lasers on the circuit don't use the cleats is probably more relevant than the fact that some of our forum users have cleats on various other dinghies. You don't need or want cleats on your laser - FACT.


Difficult to generalise really. Keith Wilkins won more Laser Masters World titles than anyone whilst using a centre jammer, so each to their own

And recent Laser national champ Dan Holman, and Laser legend Robert Scheidt.  Seems some pretty successful sailors have used them on Lasers. 


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 7:22pm
I am thoroughly in favour of a proper mainsheet jammer.

It all depends, in my opinion, as to whether you can reliably flick the mainsheet out of the jammer. If you cant, then you are better to use just a ratchet block, preferably with cleats on the side deck. Cleats make a big difference to your chances of reliably surviving gybes when it is blowing.

I can't see why sailors elect to have a mainsheet jammer in boats other than Lasers, yet seem unable to cope with them in a Laser


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Wiclif

I can't see why sailors elect to have a mainsheet jammer in boats other than Lasers, yet seem unable to cope with them in a Laser

I think the issue with a centre jammer for a laser is that the bit of boat is gets screwed on to is not horizontal, but slopes down towards the back. Consequently the jamming/unjamming angle varies depending how far aft you are sitting. If sitting aft, it won't go into the cleat. Sit forward and it won't come out.

Personally, I rarely switch the ratchet on, even my irreplaceable Fredie takes feel away. I'd personally rather cheat and cleat it off when doing so does not really matter and the arms are tired. But mostly being a pond sailor, I'll just take the strain and keep the feel; adjustment needs to be pretty much constant.




-------------
http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great new book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 11:41pm
This might do the trick...one on each side...nice and shiny...envy of the boat park...






Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 10:15am
Originally posted by Wiclif

I am thoroughly in favour of a proper mainsheet jammer.

It all depends, in my opinion, as to whether you can reliably flick the mainsheet out of the jammer. If you cant, then you are better to use just a ratchet block, preferably with cleats on the side deck. Cleats make a big difference to your chances of reliably surviving gybes when it is blowing.

I can't see why sailors elect to have a mainsheet jammer in boats other than Lasers, yet seem unable to cope with them in a Laser

I can understand the benefits of cleats on some boats. I don't understand how a cleat helps you gybe a laser when it's windy though...? Anyone care to explain this?


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 1:03pm
laser193713,
I suspect the reason there are so many advocates for  Laser mainsheet jammers or cleats on this forum is more a concession to age and comfort. Fair enough, they're good reasons and like me the forum is getting older. No doubt there will come a time in the not too distant future when I'll want cleats as well.

I'm no expert on Lasers, I used to have one didn't like it but I have read loads of stuff on sailing lasers over the years and I can think of no technique, at any point of sail that lends itself to jammers or cleats. The time it takes to adjust sail controls can be handled by holding the mainsheet in the tiller hand.

If you're fit, able and still have aspirations of improving (which is what this forum used to be about) don't bother with cleats.




Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by transient

<span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Lucida Grande", "Segoe UI", Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif; : rgb251, 251, 253;">laser193713,</span>
I suspect the reason there are so many advocates for  Laser mainsheet jammers or cleats on this forum is more a concession to age and comfort. Fair enough, they're good reasons and like me the forum is getting older. No doubt there will come a time in the not too distant future when I'll want cleats as well. 
Having read loads of stuff on sailing lasers over the years I can think of no technique, at any point of sail that lends itself to jammers or cleats. The time it takes to adjust sail controls can be handled by holding the mainsheet in the tiller hand.If you're fit, able and still have aspirations of improving (which is what this forum used to be about) don't bother with cleats.


Ainslie and schiedt to name but a few used cleats their entire laser careers. Maybe they were so good they didn't need to improve!! I know scheidt used them on the exit of his (incredible) tacks. I personally only used them in case I needed a spare hand round the racetrack or when having a drink or snack between races. There are other ways to control main like a pull out stopper knot.

Technique aside, I suspect that these guys had them t some extent because on standard supplied boats at games or worlds, cleats are fitted as standard so one should train as one races, ie become accustomed and grow to love having a harken 150 camcleat stuck firmly in your arse in light airs :-)


Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 1:15pm
While most at the top level don't use deck cleats, Robert Scheidt famously does (did), and he seemed to do pretty well...Image result for robert scheidt laser deck cleats


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 1:21pm
Note also old school vang, which I think he used throughout his career.
What a lad!


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Originally posted by transient

<span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Lucida Grande", "Segoe UI", Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif; : rgb251, 251, 253;">laser193713,</span>
I suspect the reason there are so many advocates for  Laser mainsheet jammers or cleats on this forum is more a concession to age and comfort. Fair enough, they're good reasons and like me the forum is getting older. No doubt there will come a time in the not too distant future when I'll want cleats as well. 
Having read loads of stuff on sailing lasers over the years I can think of no technique, at any point of sail that lends itself to jammers or cleats. The time it takes to adjust sail controls can be handled by holding the mainsheet in the tiller hand.If you're fit, able and still have aspirations of improving (which is what this forum used to be about) don't bother with cleats.
 

Ainslie and schiedt to name but a few used cleats their entire laser careers. Maybe they were so good they didn't need to improve!! I know scheidt used them on the exit of his (incredible) tacks. I personally only used them in case I needed a spare hand round the racetrack or when having a drink or snack between races. There are other ways to control main like a pull out stopper knot. 

Technique aside, I suspect that these guys had them t some extent because on standard supplied boats at games or worlds, cleats are fitted as standard so one should train as one races, ie become accustomed and grow to love having a harken 150 camcleat stuck firmly in your arse in light airs :-)

 

In every field of expertise there are exceptions, geniuses that buck the trend of best practice.... Fact and long may it continue.

Since there are no geniuses posting regularly on this forum I reckon it's reasonable to suggest what most experts see as best practice, not what's most comfortable for old bones.

I have cleats on my two hander, as I said before I have used them when I roll fags half way through a race LOL or take my splash top off between races. Those kinds of moment aren't what we're talking about though are they? My cleats were factory fitted, if they weren't I wouldn't fit them.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cleating for comfort or convenience and I'm sincere about that but lets be honest about the reasons why we do it. 

For the vast majority of posters here using the cleat while sailing a Laser will hamper improvement of technique........if folk aren't interested in improving technique then that's absolutely fine.

My technique is shyte by the way but I still live in hope. 


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Note also old school vang, which I think he used throughout his career.
What a lad!


Careful Mr Holman, folk might start to advocate using them as well LOLLOL


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 6:34pm
To elaborate on my comments yesterday.

The "help" when gybing comes when the mainsheet stays where you have set it and not sliding out in a moment of panic, causing the inevitable death roll. And I did have a reputation, albeit many years ago now, for staying upright in the gybes.

The fact that the mainsheet cleat drops as you move aft can be considered a good idea. There are two points here. One is that mainsheet action is more frequent on a reqch so having the cleat set at the correct height for beating means that it is out of the way for reaching but still totally usable for gybing. The second point is that boats are shallower at the back than amidships so that on a boat where the cleat is fixed to the top of the centreboard casing, it means that the cleat effectively becomes higher as you move aft - not a good idea. In the past I have intentionally raised the forward end of the centre jammer so that this does not happen.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 8:39pm
The good old kicker on a laser. The side cleats were useful then. Cleat it in tight, press your for against the mainsheet between boom and block on the centreboard case and you'll bend the boom allowing you to easily take up the slack in the kicker, ultra tight. I only ever used them occasionally but always kept them on just in case. Centre jammers seem a little overkill on a laser where the sheet loads are light but essential on a Finn. I did add one to my phantom in the end but only to use on the sea in places like Lee on Solent where you had a two mile beat on one track. No wind shifts or gusts to worry about. Cleat it and concentrate on steering through the waves

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Wiclif

To elaborate on my comments yesterday.

The "help" when gybing comes when the mainsheet stays where you have set it and not sliding out in a moment of panic, causing the inevitable death roll. And I did have a reputation, albeit many years ago now, for staying upright in the gybes.

The fact that the mainsheet cleat drops as you move aft can be considered a good idea. There are two points here. One is that mainsheet action is more frequent on a reqch so having the cleat set at the correct height for beating means that it is out of the way for reaching but still totally usable for gybing. The second point is that boats are shallower at the back than amidships so that on a boat where the cleat is fixed to the top of the centreboard casing, it means that the cleat effectively becomes higher as you move aft - not a good idea. In the past I have intentionally raised the forward end of the centre jammer so that this does not happen.

So how did you flick the sheet through the gybe to stop it hooking the transom? Or were you doing the seriously old school tiller extension hook to clear it?




Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 10:01am
Oh, and just for the record. Here is our Ben winning his most famous gold medal WITHOUT cleats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twM3ZBS1irA


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 6:41pm
To laser193713

Jamming the sheet doesn't stop you flicking it. But this is only needed in the lighter weather, it just doesn't happen when it is blowing.

Being too enthusiastic about the flick and getting a half hitch round the end of the boom is another matter!


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 11 Jul 17 at 10:45pm
I always found that flicking the mainsheet caught it over the end of the boom which is much worse than the transom. Rolling the boat so that the main didn't drop into the water and drag behind the boat was more effective.

Anyway Laser193713 we get that you don't like cleats. Others do. Some might even like a centre jammer. Each to their own, eh?


-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Jul 17 at 6:56am
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has flicked it round the boom.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Jul 17 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Rupert

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has flicked it round the boom.

Used to do that all the time til i perfected the technique. Always on a vital tack or gybe.....


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Jul 17 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has flicked it round the boom.

I have not managed that yet, except a) ashore rigging in a hurry and b) coming up after a capsize.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Jul 17 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Rupert

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has flicked it round the boom.

I have not managed that yet, except a) ashore rigging in a hurry and b) coming up after a capsize.

Try harder Wink


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 12 Jul 17 at 4:01pm
Mr cockerill pointed out to me. The problem with the stern catching is that the mainsheet drags in the water and goes behind the transom and so gets caught. If you flick it there is the danger of it catching round the boom as said which is very difficult to release indeed especially when windy. If you roll the boat it stops the mainsheet dropping in the water so it doesn't drag behind the transom and therefore doesn't get caught. You would need to sheet in a certain amount first of course. The difficulty is having the Kahuna's to do this in a force five or more

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 12 Jul 17 at 4:38pm
The flick is still needed in strong winds if you are going to gybe a laser well. The reason it goes over the boom is that the flick is too late.

The original post was asking "What is your experience? Will a ratchet block be sufficient to hold the main while pulling on the kicker? Should I put cleats on the sides?" 

To which I answered with my experience, explained that a good ratchet block would be sufficient and that he shouldn't add cleats to the side.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 12 Jul 17 at 8:21pm
Shouldn't need to add cleats would be a better choice of phrase, after the choice is theirs, but I would agree there shouldn't be the need for cleats to enable the kicker to be pulled on provided the rachet is decent

-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 13 Jul 17 at 9:16am
Yes, I will get that done on Saturday: replace the old sharp-edged central jammer with a ratchet block, and not add cleats.

Thanks for all the replies and the interesting discussion!


-------------
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 13 Jul 17 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Eisvogel

Yes, I will get that done on Saturday: replace the old sharp-edged central jammer with a ratchet block, and not add cleats.

Thanks for all the replies and the interesting discussion!

We are probably just getting started! Next thing is which ratchet block. They are not all equal.

Not withstanding my preference for all things Harken, the nicest for the Laser is the Fredieriksen, now made by Ronstan, but they are rare and expensive.
https://www.roostersailing.com/pd/Ronstan-RF62100-60mm-Freddie-Ratchet-Block_101077.htm

A Ronstan Orbit Ratchet gave up the ghost on my too quickly, the Selden that came with my 100 is 'orrible.

So if not a Fredi, I suggest Harken.

Stand by for another 5 pages...




-------------
http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great new book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 13 Jul 17 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by fab100

Not withstanding my preference for all things Harken, the nicest for the Laser is the Fredieriksen, now made by Ronstan, but they are rare and expensive.
https://www.roostersailing.com/pd/Ronstan-RF62100-60mm-Freddie-Ratchet-Block_101077.htm

Two of those was what I paid for my Laser...   :O


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Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 13 Jul 17 at 8:02pm
I've got on really well with the Ronstan Orbit and the Harken, both good blocks doesn't really matter which you go for, but i'd say go for an autoratchet

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RS300, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 14 Jul 17 at 9:56am
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Eisvogel

Yes, I will get that done on Saturday: replace the old sharp-edged central jammer with a ratchet block, and not add cleats.

Thanks for all the replies and the interesting discussion!

We are probably just getting started! Next thing is which ratchet block. They are not all equal.

Not withstanding my preference for all things Harken, the nicest for the Laser is the Fredieriksen, now made by Ronstan, but they are rare and expensive.
https://www.roostersailing.com/pd/Ronstan-RF62100-60mm-Freddie-Ratchet-Block_101077.htm

A Ronstan Orbit Ratchet gave up the ghost on my too quickly, the Selden that came with my 100 is 'orrible.

So if not a Fredi, I suggest Harken.

Stand by for another 5 pages...



The ronstan/fredi is by far the best choice. They are by no means cheap though. What is wrong with the Selden one? When I had my 100 I actually quite liked it, it wasn't as "bitey" as the fredi but it certainly worked well. The issue was more the stupidly thick, fluffy mainsheet. I changed this for a 6mm laser mainsheet after having the boat for a month or so and it all worked well after that.

The Harken is my least favourite of the lot. I have one on my 400 and it annoys the hell out of me, it squeaks as you ease the sheet and the grip is quite inconsistent especially when it gets wet. It's okay on that boat though because I have a mainsheet cleat!!! OuchEmbarrassedLOL


Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 24 Jul 17 at 9:49am
Are you allowed to remove the side cleats?
They really kill my bum!


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Jul 17 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

Are you allowed to remove the side cleats?
They really kill my bum!

I believe so. Many people have. As it is not mandatory to fit them when the boat is new then removing them must be OK (I took them off all of mine). I am sure you could find a definitive answer if you trawled through the Laser class rules.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: sixlasers
Date Posted: 24 Jul 17 at 6:58pm
As my username suggests, I have owned 6 lasers. All have had cleats except my current mount. The only time I miss them is in lighter weather where I like to fine tune the main sheet tension and cleat it so that when I move or tack I do not alter the sheet position. I am now seriously consider fitting them.


Posted By: laser47
Date Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 9:37am
Originally posted by laser193713

 
The ronstan/fredi is by far the best choice. They are by no means cheap though. What is wrong with the Selden one? When I had my 100 I actually quite liked it, it wasn't as "bitey" as the fredi but it certainly worked well. The issue was more the stupidly thick, fluffy mainsheet. I changed this for a 6mm laser mainsheet after having the boat for a month or so and it all worked well after that.

The Harken is my least favourite of the lot. I have one on my 400 and it annoys the hell out of me, it squeaks as you ease the sheet and the grip is quite inconsistent especially when it gets wet. It's okay on that boat though because I have a mainsheet cleat!!! OuchEmbarrassedLOL

Squeaking and inconsistency when wet would suggest you've got a bit of gunk in the bearings; sounds like your 400 block just needs a good long soaking in warm fresh water and dish soap. 



Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 28 Jul 17 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by laser47

Originally posted by laser193713

 
The ronstan/fredi is by far the best choice. They are by no means cheap though. What is wrong with the Selden one? When I had my 100 I actually quite liked it, it wasn't as "bitey" as the fredi but it certainly worked well. The issue was more the stupidly thick, fluffy mainsheet. I changed this for a 6mm laser mainsheet after having the boat for a month or so and it all worked well after that.

The Harken is my least favourite of the lot. I have one on my 400 and it annoys the hell out of me, it squeaks as you ease the sheet and the grip is quite inconsistent especially when it gets wet. It's okay on that boat though because I have a mainsheet cleat!!! OuchEmbarrassedLOL

Squeaking and inconsistency when wet would suggest you've got a bit of gunk in the bearings; sounds like your 400 block just needs a good long soaking in warm fresh water and dish soap. 


Nothing to do with the bearings, it's the grip between the sheet and the surface of the block which is noisy and unpredictable when the sheet is being eased.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 Jul 17 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by laser193713

....

Nothing to do with the bearings, it's the grip between the sheet and the surface of the block which is noisy and unpredictable when the sheet is being eased.
[/QUOTE]
I know what you mean.
This is a function of both the sheave design and the rope.
Changing the thickness or stiffness or shiny-ness of the rope can alter the grip.
Also the wrap angle around the block.



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