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2017 Rules

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12398
Printed Date: 12 Aug 20 at 3:20pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 2017 Rules
Posted By: Quagers
Subject: 2017 Rules
Date Posted: 19 May 16 at 8:21pm
The Olympics is nearly on us which means that soon afterwards all the rules geeks get to look forward to new rules to dissect, argue about and despair that no one in the local fleet knows them.

So the questions are:

1) What changes would you like to see?

2) What changes will we see?

For me its rule 17, I've heard lots of rumours "its going to be turned off by default in Appendix D", "its going to be deleted entirely", the tension is killing me.

As a two boat team racer I'm pretty used to racing without 17 as its often turned off in the SIs but getting rid of it will make 3 boat team racing runs pretty sporting (and probably quite a bit longer). I can't seem them taking it out entirely as I don't think the general fleet racing world is ready for that. 



Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 May 16 at 9:44pm
Port and starboard reversed on alternate Sundays and for the Olympic medal race.

What will they do? Fiddle around a bit in ways that no one at club level will ever notice or care about.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 19 May 16 at 10:35pm
Which is good right, to my mind that should be the aim. Change the rules in ways that improve the game for those at the top end without causing too much hassle at club level.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 19 May 16 at 11:57pm

Normally to see the Racing Rules Committee submissions, you go to the sailing.org Documents and Rules tab and use the search panel towards the foot of the page.

 

But ALL the RRC submissions links that I retrieve at the moment are broken.

 

PEd, any ideas?



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 5:42am
I'd like to see the definition for finish improved. Last time IMHO it became more confusing, not less.

I'd like to see protest validity changed so that a procedural error by the victim is less of a get out of gaol free for the criminal.


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 8:16am
The changes to rule 18 from the last to the current set are so poorly understood (it's not even apparent that people are aware that the rule changed significantly) that I would hope they do something about it to prevent the crazy leeward mark bundles that result. They moved it in the right direction but some additional wording might be helpful.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Brass

Normally to see the Racing Rules Committee submissions, you go to the sailing.org Documents and Rules tab and use the search panel towards the foot of the page.

 

But ALL the RRC submissions links that I retrieve at the moment are broken.

 

PEd, any ideas?


Go to the 2015 Annual Conference page: http://www.sailing.org/meetings/2015-conference.php

Click on the Papers tab, then click on the Submissions tab.

There is a zip file at the top of the page with all the submissions in it.

You then need to go through the minutes of the Council meeting to find out which submissions were rejected and which approved (some with amendments).

My quick assessment is that there aren't any significant changes to the boat-on-boat rules as they apply to fleet racing - just some changes to the wording intended to make the rules clearer (and remove some unintentional conflicts between different rules).

I haven't looked in detail at the changes to the rules for windsurfers, kite boards, match racing and team racing.



Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 10:11am
I'd change A8.2, scoring in a series tie. The current rule says "If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked in order of their scores in their last race". This feels a bit arbitrary to me. IMHO it was much fairer in the old days when in the event of a tie discards were used as the tiebreaker.


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 10:48am
IMHO it was much fairer in the old days when in the event of a tie discards were used as the tiebreaker.

A much better system. However, it doesn't fit with the sudden death for the cameras type approach that seems to be favoured for the Olympics these days - which is perhaps no reason why the rest of us have to put up with it.


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Quagers



For me its rule 17, I've heard lots of rumours "its going to be turned off by default in Appendix D", "its going to be deleted entirely", the tension is killing me.

Seems to me that rule 17 was not devised with mixed fleets of lasers and asymmetrics in mind



-------------
http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 11:30am
Originally posted by fab100


Originally posted by Quagers

For me its rule 17, I've heard lots of rumours "its going to be turned off by default in Appendix D", "its going to be deleted entirely", the tension is killing me.
Seems to me that rule 17 was not devised with mixed fleets of lasers and asymmetrics in mind


Not sure many, if any, of the rules were designed for handicap racing at all. The boat lengths at a mark rule when long, fast boats and short slow ones are involved can cause issues, but proper course has to be the big one, as you say.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by PeterG

IMHO it was much fairer in the old days when in the event of a tie discards were used as the tiebreaker.

A much better system. However, it doesn't fit with the sudden death for the cameras type approach that seems to be favoured for the Olympics these days - which is perhaps no reason why the rest of us have to put up with it.

But you don't have to put up with it, it can be changed in the Sailing Instructions for any event.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Quagers


For me its rule 17, I've heard lots of rumours "its going to be turned off by default in Appendix D", "its going to be deleted entirely", the tension is killing me.
Seems to me that rule 17 was not devised with mixed fleets of lasers and asymmetrics in mind

What exactly is it about rule 17 that you don't like and would want changed?


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Quagers

For me its rule 17, I've heard lots of rumours "its going to be turned off by default in Appendix D", "its going to be deleted entirely", the tension is killing me.

So far as I can see from the submissions, no change to rule 17 for fleet racing, no change to rule 17 in Appendix D (i.e. for Team Racing), but it looks as if Appendix C will delete rule 17 for Match Racing.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 3:06pm
18.3 is changed to apply only at port hand ww marks.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 5:06pm
Also, I think that the last annual meeting at which rule changes for 2017-2020 can be approved was the meeting last year in China. Barcelona this Autumn is too late for translation and printing before Jan 2017.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Also, I think that the last annual meeting at which rule changes for 2017-2020 can be approved was the meeting last year in China. Barcelona this Autumn is too late for translation and printing before Jan 2017.


Pretty much. See http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2016RegulationsMay2016-[20737].pdf esp 28.2 on page 85. If I read it correctly the final version is supposed to have been completed on May 1st (2 weeks ago) and be sent to the NAs so they can organise translation by June 30th.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 5:36pm
Plus, having just read this morning S'butt, the RYA will have books on sale at the Southampton boat show in Sept. 


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 20 May 16 at 9:16pm
Hmm interesting, I had it on what I thought was reliable authority that changes to 17 were on the cards, at least for team racing, from a certain well known team racing institution. In that case no idea what he was talking about.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 04 Jul 16 at 5:42pm
Racing Rules of Sailing 2017-2020 have now been published on the World Sailing website:

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingRRS20172020-%5b20946%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingRRS20172020-[20946].pdf

Share and enjoy!


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 04 Jul 16 at 8:30pm
Is there a study version showing the changes?


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 8:08am
The vertical line to the right shows where there are changes. 

Outside Appendix C (match racing), AFAICS, no major changes, particularly to part 2. it's mostly housekeeping. 

 

Definitions now include one for "support person". 

 

Rules: 

Penalty for breaking rule 2 can now be DSQ or DNE. 

3 (Acceptance of rules) completely re-written. Includes support people 

New rules 6 and 7 - betting/anti corruption & disciplinary code. 

 

Part 2 preamble: boats can now be DSQ for breaking 14 and causing injury or serious damage (as well as 24.1) when not racing. 

New 18.2.d  Rules 18.2(b ) and (c ) cease to apply when the boat entitled to mark-room has been given that mark-room, or if she passes head to wind or leaves the zone. (Old 18.2.d and 18.2.e renumbered e and f respectively). 

18.3 Only applies at port hand marks. 

New 19.1.b Rule 19 applies between two boats at an obstruction except (b ) when rule 18 applies between the boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapped with each of them.

20. Re-written. Now states when boats may hail, rather than when they shall not. 

21 now part of section D, no longer refers to section C. 

22.3 applies to boats moving sideways to windward by backing a sail. 

24.2 rewritten. Now "if reasonably possible". 

30.3 New "U flag" rule. Aka a black flag that doesn't carry over if the start is general recalled. Black flag is now 30.4. 

32.1. Can now shorten to allow time for subsequent races, and can only abandon for starting errors. 

32.2 Can now shorted at a line that boats have to cross. 

 

40 - Y ashore = PFDs when afloat at all times. 

44.2 Scoring penalty now 20% of DNF score (not entries, as before).

 

49.1 now refers to when lifelines are required by class or any other rule.(not just SIs)

55 Trash. Penalty now discretionary. 

60.4 New rule. Technical committees may protest. 

60.5 However, neither a boat nor a committee may protest for an alleged breach of rule 5, 6, 7 or 69.
61.1.a.4 No flag required if the crew is in danger. 
53.4 New rule - conflict of interest. 
63.7 Broadened to conflict between rules, not just NoR & SIs. 
64.3 - housekeeping on class rule protests. 
64.4. New rule: Decisions concerning support people. 
 
69 Rewritten. 
 
78 Housekeeping. 
84, 85, 86 housekeeping. 
 
Appendix C 

Big changes: 17 deleted completely, 18 now the test rules. 

 

Appendix D

17 has not been deleted, contrary to much rumour.




Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Quagers

Is there a study version showing the changes?

Study version doesn't seem to have been published yet. Unfortunately the revision marking in the version that has been published is incomplete (doesn't include Appendicies).


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 10:22am
IIRC, the revision markings of past rulebooks didn't included appendices either. 


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 10:42am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

IIRC, the revision markings of past rulebooks didn't included appendices either. 

Indeed, but the 2013-2016 study version did.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 11:17am
I'd be surprised if they do one. Lot of work for limited benefit. 


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

I'd be surprised if they do one. Lot of work for limited benefit. 

I personally found it useful to be able to understand the background to the changes last time around. I also assumed that it had been produced during the re-drafting process (as an aide for the committee), rather than as an afterthought, but I might be wrong about that. Guess we will have to wait and see.


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 10:45pm
Does anyone understand the changes to 18, why does tacking in the zone now only apply at port hand roundings?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 10:53pm
It was never very relevant at starboard hand marks anyway, because the boats have to get on port to round the mark so the boat coming in on the "wrong" tack has right of way.

The original argument in the submission was this.
Reason
Some complexity in the application of the current rule 18.3 was highlighted in Case 133. Rule 18.3's purpose is to help an orderly rounding of port-hand windward marks by limiting the rights of boats that approach on port and tack onto starboard in the zone. The rule should be restricted to this. The proposed amended rule:
1. Makes the rule (which is an exception to the normal 18.2) apply only when necessary:
• At windward marks to be left to port. It is unnecessary and has undesirable
consequences at starboard marks.
• Between a boat that tacks in the zone and one that does not. This removes the
complexity with two boats that tack in the zone shown in Case 133.
2. Includes only the tacking boat in the initial ‘when it applies’ clause to make the purpose and application clearer.
3. Is simpler. The statement about rule 18.2 not applying (necessary so that rule 18.2(e) does not apply) is moved to the end. The redundant phrase ‘or prevent her from rounding the mark’ is removed.


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 11:37pm
Honestly I think this just complicates matters, now we have different rules applying depending on which way you are going round the mark? People barely know the rules as it is.

It also changes the game in team racing a bit, I've certainly used this rule at starboard hand mark 1's before.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 9:52am
But we already have different rules at windward and leeward marks. If you just stick to the mantra "Don't approach a ww mark from top left. Tack outside the zone" = no worries. 

Personally, I think it's an improvement for team racing. Means that this is now legal for yellow. 


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 10:04am
One other thing, as was pointed out on the other place. New appendices S and T. Standard sailing instructions and arbitration. 
And no index. 


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 11:02pm
Ed, I've seen similar diagrams used before, is there a program you're using to do them?




Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 11:36pm
That one was with Boat Scenario

http://boats.sourceforge.net

How to use it.
[TUBE]https://youtu.be/PeKOqTXttFQ[/TUBE]

There's also tss -tactical sailing solutions.
http://tss.peronneau.net


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 07 Jul 16 at 1:38pm
Does anyone thing that the definition of support person, if read literally, it way way too broad. It could apply to almost anyone in the world.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jul 16 at 1:50pm
I imagine its deliberately broad because its aimed at the professional teams who have a history of doing everything they can to evade a rule if they find it awkward.


Posted By: flaming
Date Posted: 11 Jul 16 at 6:31pm
Does the new 19.1b provide a definative answer to this problem now then?

New 19.1.b Rule 19 applies between two boats at an obstruction except (b ) when rule 18 applies between the boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapped with each of them.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11141&title=which-takes-precedence-18-or-19




Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Jul 16 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by flaming

Does the new 19.1b provide a definative answer to this problem now then?

New 19.1.b Rule 19 applies between two boats at an obstruction except (b ) when rule 18 applies between the boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapped with each of them.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11141&title=which-takes-precedence-18-or-19

Probably.

Here's the submission for the rule change.  The exact wording of the amendment was changed by the RRC before going to Council.
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/17415RacingRulesofSailingRule19.1-%5b19546%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/17415RacingRulesofSailingRule19.1-[19546].pdf



Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Quagers

Is there a study version showing the changes?

Has now been published by World Sailing:
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/StudyVersionoftheRacingRulesfor20172020Final-%5b13380%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/StudyVersionoftheRacingRulesfor20172020Final-[13380].pdf




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