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Is your boat part of the Zombie apocalypse?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12356
Printed Date: 24 May 18 at 2:16am
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Topic: Is your boat part of the Zombie apocalypse?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Is your boat part of the Zombie apocalypse?
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 4:17pm
So a zombie is something returned from the dead.

Which naturally defines any number of dinghy classes that should have been buried long ago, but like frankenstein have been revived, in the cottage Industry that sprang up in the recession of commercial banditry, trading on a dated PY and or providing a commercial market for pro riders and sail makers, which is fair enough, just a pity they are not able to ply their trade on new builds/designs.

The List in no particular order

GP14
Miracle
Merlin
Osprey
Phantom
Solo
Streaker

That's just one not so magnifcent seven group foisted on folk for want of something better.

There must be more, or do you think different?


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Replies:
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 4:40pm
quit your bitching and come and join us.... 




Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 5:41pm
I wasn't aware that any of them had ever died?

That's just one not so magnifcent seven group foisted on folk for want of something better.

I know you really can't get your head round this, but some people really like sailing those boats, and think, with considerable justification, that the fact that are still around after a long and healthy life reflects their significant merit as boats to sail.

There are certainly boats on the market today that look interesting, and under different circumstances I might well consider seriously. However, for me the racing is far more important that what I sail and if I can sail a good boat in a fleet that gives me good racing and a good social group I'd far rather do that than sail a newer more perfect boat in a handicap fleet on my own - and spend my life as some seem to do complaining about the handicap system. Why bother?


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 5:43pm
I have 4 Zombie boats.
Minisail "Sprint"
Enterprise.
Aquabat (accepted by Minisail class association).
And possibly your worst nightmare, "Tinker Traveller".


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 6:37pm
with the possible exception  of the GP14, I'd have any of those, if they fitted my requirements. In fact I do own one of those and another that graham would no doubt, consider of the same ilk (Scorpion)

For the most part these classes have good turnouts.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 7:35pm
No, funnily enough I don't consider the Scorpion in that grouping, not at all, it must be the familiarity of it at Hythe which used to be Scorpion central and it's a shame there aint any left racing although one of our members still travels to their opens.

Now the Fireball on the other hand....

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Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 8:18pm
How can the Merlin Rocket have "returned from the dead" when it has been constantly evolving and moving forward for 70 years? The boats now bear little resemblance to those from the past and certainly haven't "returned" to what they were.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 10:08pm
4320, in grf's strange world, only the Enterprise could be a zombie boat of those you list. None of the others have been brought back to life in an updated form by a builder intent, in grf's mind, to cash in on the 3 years it takes for a yardstick to catch up with changes made to a boat. His mind is a small, bitter place to be, so best to visit as little as possible.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 10:19pm
Zombie boats are the undead trying to lure the unaware back to hades to sail the river styx in grf's strange world.

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Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 5:11pm
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/188621/GP14-World-Championship-in-Barbados-day-3

Looks like the zombie boats are having a ball in Barbados


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 6:19pm
Your scorched earth approach is quite sweet I've decided, if rather naive.

People naturally develop an emotional as well as financial investment in the boats they sail, usually after a fair bit of trial and error to find what suits them and where they chose to sail.

In one way or another, all of those on your list have passed the test of time. There is a loyal core of enthusiasts, a class association and a variety of boat quality out there ranging from unsellable to worth a decent chunk on Apollo Duck.

Sometimes the builder or rights owner loses interest; fair enough, their business objectives may change. But that does not mean that no one can make money from that design.

From say Hartley's point of view, taking on an orphan boat can make business sense; there will be some in the class loyal who will buy a new ship, particularly if it's a bit sexed up (easier to justify the spend to the other-half). They sell the old one and hence the class grows. Works for everyone.

Contrast trying to break something new into the market. Full of business risk. No loyal fans. No class association infrastructure. Hence the difficulties of the Alto and Icon, no matter how good the design might be. In the old business cliche, they are prospecting for customers (looking for a seam of gold), Hartley's revised Supasofa is mining (extracting the gold that you know is there).

Hence, much as you might hate it, they are not Zombies, but they might be orphans who have found a new home and improved future.

This is the real world, where abusing orphans is never a vote-winner.


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 7:56pm
The key point is , people choose, this spoils iGRF's future vision, he will always be let down.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 8:11pm
People don't 'choose' they get 'advised' 'cajoled' and in some cases 'forced' (we only sail <insert zombie class> at this club) and thus the self interest is perpetuated and the sport remains 95% moribund.

This forum is a classic example, most here are part of the 'zombie apocalypse', dead, but refusing to lie down, would rather go to the grave taking the entire sport with you than permit something new to go forward, can I remember the number of times I've used the term Luddite?

Even when presented with the enlightened views of a potential sailing genius such as I, you remain closed minded, it is what it is and was ever thus, dinghy sailors remain as they always have been, but it's fun trying to awaken the dead.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:53pm
Most of the classes  today will still be in existence at the end of the century, the kids out sailing with parents/grand parents, will look back with nostalgia on those days and buy that boat, you only have to look at prices of cars and bikes from 60's, 70's and 80's etc, it is self perpetuating.


Posted By: Tom J
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 1:32pm
Err... where's the international moth and 14 on that list?? 2 classes dating from 1928 must be too old to be any good - quick, someone design new versions and then all we need to do is stop the luddites from promoting those out of date designs and preventing the sport from moving forward...


Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 2:45pm
Hi Graham
Isnt it better to have a boat that has revised it self than one that has never got going like the two of your current fleet. Or one that had a difficult birth.
You cannot blame PY commitee for all the troubles of the new boats you seem to be in favour of somehow they are not getting the marketing correct or the concept in the first place.
After all Mega Zombies Rule.

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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 3:57pm
Well I entirely blame the PY group for the Icon death blow when it was struggling twixt suppliers, as to the Asbo, that is six of one half a dozen of the other, it also is a victim of the general trend away from crewed boats, I'm a classic example what with death, illness and injury forcing me into single handed sailing something I didn't really come into the sport to take up, given it's nature of being a poor replacement to the real deal of ultimate single hander racing on raceboards.

I will however grudgingly admit some great moments and further enjoyment in the recent learning curves of getting to grips with handling these infernal ruddered things alone with no-one to swear at and blame, but the perfect being that has been silly enough to place himself in that position (Of being less than perfect).

But other than a few examples I still stand by the zombie thing, our case isn't exactly helped by some of the garbage we're expected to deal with, but at least I now know enough to spot the potential pitfalls and can nearly judge a not bad boat by looking at it first, something I couldn't have done a couple of years back.

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 4:22pm
I make it 188 Classes on my 1964 PY list, 105 classes on the 2016 list, only 26 classes appear on both.

They are:
420
505
Albacore
British Moth
Cadet
Cherub
Enterprise
Finn
Fireball
Firefly
Flying Fifteen
Graduate
Hornet
Int 14
Int Canoe
Int Moth
Javelin
Kestrel
Merlin-Rocket
National 12
National 18
OK
Osprey
Scorpion
Snipe
Solo
Wayfarer


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by JimC

I make it 188 Classes on my 1964 PY list, 105 classes on the 2016 list, only 26 classes appear on both.

They are:
420
505
Albacore
British Moth
Cadet
Cherub
Enterprise
Finn
Fireball
Firefly
Flying Fifteen
Graduate
Hornet
Int 14
Int Canoe
Int Moth
Javelin
Kestrel
Merlin-Rocket
National 12
National 18
OK
Osprey
Scorpion
Snipe
Solo
Wayfarer

With the possible grudging exception of the following they are all Zombie Classes and should receive some sort of compulsory extinction order, cease and desist, polluting not only the Nations Waters, but young minds.

Cherub
Int14
Int Canoe
Int Moth

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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 5:07pm
You forget, Graeme, that the route into dinghy sailing for many - me included - is to initially buy used. That way the financial exposure is limited if it doesn't work out. I CHOSE what to buy following a long period of analysis and thought. No-one cajoled or forced me into anything.

Why pick the four on your list for salvation? They're not exactly mainstream, all with limited numbers and mostly damn difficult to sail. And you have previous for asking for kit that anyone off the street can sail to 100% of its potential within 5 minutes of stepping aboard, which none of these four can claim.


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Nick
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 5:43pm
Those 4 boats all take hundreds of hours of sailing to get to grips with.

Many others on the list are easy to sail, meaning that the game itself becomes the object. Take the Firefly. Small and simple, it has been the team racing boat of choice since the 50s. It is the equivalent of the ball in football or the stick in hockey. A few changes in construction over the years, but still what you use to pay the game. Why replace the football with a space hopper, or the hockey stick with a walking stick? The fun is in the game.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 6:45pm
Rupert, that is the best analogy I've seen in the argument against iGRF.

Both of my current boats are on the list and I'd say it's because they are two of the nicest dinghies to sail that I have ever experienced.

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Graduate 2928
OK 2071


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 8:02pm
Well, they are not the only four boats left in the world are they?

There are still dozens of others. Isn't the Lark an acceptable team race boat?

There are other boats not mentioned that should also be totally destroyed.. Optimist wtf is that all about? making kids sail in a box? No wonder all the parents become psychos.

What would be wrong with using something like a Lightning or Splash?



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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 9:43pm
I as well have been ignorant to allure of the Optimist and others, in recent years though after seeing some skilled young sailors in them my eyes and mind have opened somewhat.

An anecdote with no names as I don't think it is the done thing to undermine or try to influence. We have some new boats of Optimist size and style which a couple of our experienced juniors recently tried out. Fully expecting a ringing endorsement of the latest thing following what appeared to be an excellent session I was surprised to hear "perfectly nice enough but I prefer the Optimist" from both.

It is all very well to have a poor opinion of something but unless based on true experience (and not a failed foray) an opinion is all it is. It is the easiest, laziest and most common reaction to mock that we don't understand. Sometimes the more we understand something the more merit we can see against a true assessment of the flaws.

   

 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 10:19pm
People will always prefer their comfort zone, if some poor unfortunate has been abused by an optimist for long enough there will inevitably be an element of stockholm syndrome.

The key is a better choice at the outset, which unfortunately at the moment there is none.

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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 10:25pm
BTW. Both proficient T15 sailors, free and open minded souls.................... 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 10:28pm
But if the other 'option' is that bloody heavy Bic Open, you could perfectly understand the Oppy being preferred.

But then again if say a scaled down D0 or Aero, were presented, what then would be the result?

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 10:52pm
The result? Lots of kids put off sailing for life. Learner boats need to be easy. Even the Tera is too big for the tiny ones. Oppie is great for a 7 year old to go round in circles in without it tipping over. We tend to move on to Teras once they have Stage 1, as we aren't following any Oppie squad type stuff. The Tera is about as close as I'd want to be to an Aero at that stage. Not so breakable.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 9:28am
So when do kids naturally move into Toppers?


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 10:52am
I know a couple of adults still sailing Toppers, one of them is about 5 feet 10 inches and 13 stone, he likes the simple no fuss side of it, (as an aside did you know Topper was part of Minisail history).
I started sailing in a GP (Zombie), then a Topper Omega ( I loved this boat) (RYA level 1), a Laser, a Pico, a Topper, (this was to level 2 RYA).
You would probably think this a "negative" thing, but first boat I owned, "Aquabat", this lead me to Minisail class association, then to CVRDA, the best 2 moves I have made.



Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 12:55pm
I've only sailed a Topper a couple of times, at just short of 6ft and 12 stone, and had a ball both times. It was too windy and rough of the beach to take anything else out and the club Toppers provided loads of wet fun in the conditions.

I don't think I'd enjoy one in light, or perhaps even normal winds, but I can see the appeal.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 4:56pm
The Topper seems to be sailed from about age 9 or 10 up with the small sail or reefed, with the big sail there for them as they grow into it. The winner of the Nats was 15 in 2015, and I suspect shortly after that Radials start calling. Whether this is a good progression is a matter of opinion, and probably best judged not by how many Olympic medals it produces, but by retention of sailors in the sport. Suspect an emphasis by coaches on this aspect will have far more effect than the boat type, though.

Is the new Tera, Aero5, Aero7 route better than the above, or the Laser 4.7, Radial, Standard route? Again, suspect it is the people who matter, not the boats.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 4:56pm
Well I always wondered, in a mildly disinterested fashion why yottie world continues with that box thing in the face of something like the Topper, which in its day had quite a unique technological means of production. They used to be made round here, probably still do, although two bits of the hull were fashioned in Germany then assembled here with the two bits being electrically welded with a hot wire around the seam.

I imagine they are stupidly expensive like eveything else in dinghy world, I mean by now with the moulds well homologated they should be being knocked out at Amazon & Argos for 799 complete with a 30% margin for the retailer.


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 5:00pm
No, Toppers are a crazy price, yet the company still manages to hit the skids every now and again. Mind, last time I took much notice of Topper's finances was 20 years ago.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I mean by now with the moulds well homologated they should be being knocked out at Amazon & Argos for 799 complete with a 30% margin for the retailer.

Trouble is I think the mould is only in use for about a week or so in the year, rest of the time its gathering dust and overheads.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 12:26pm
Topper 2,795 inc' VAT


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 5:16pm
Plus cover and trolley?

Still one of the least expensive boats available, but can't help but wonder if RS would have had a harder sell on the Tera if the price was lower for the Topper.

Should Proctor have redesigned the Minisail for injection moulding too, as a larger version?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Should Proctor have redesigned the Minisail for injection moulding too, as a larger version?

My understanding is that the injection moulding was only practicable because it was also a technology demonstration, and the investment was written off against that.
I'm very out of date on this stuff and was never in that part of the plastics industry, but my understanding is that the tooling for injection moulding is way way more expensive than roto moulding (which I don't think really got going until the 80s for sophisticated fabrications)


Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 5:39pm
I remember seeing Tomorrows Word on TV featuring the Topper. I guess the year was about 1978. We all thought at the time it was going to be as cheap as chips, it wasn't!

In reality it coincided with my Dad doing a home built Streaker, which in my opinion was way better anyway. Also cost less, although as detailed in other post took way longer than expected. He did do a fanatastic job though


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 7:26pm
I'm wondering what an epoxy sandwich minisail with a decent sized centreboard and modern rig might go like.

Bat escaping the fires of hell springs to mind.

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by JimC


My understanding is that the injection moulding was only practicable because it was also a technology demonstration, and the investment was written off against that.
I'm very out of date on this stuff and was never in that part of the plastics industry, but my understanding is that the tooling for injection moulding is way way more expensive than roto moulding (which I don't think really got going until the 80s for sophisticated fabrications)

Tens of thousands and you have to be pretty damn sure of some volume before committing, even the windsurf game had to give up on it eventually, couldn't get the numbers and I'm not sure but isn't the Topper blow moulded which is a stage more sophisticated than roto and it's polypropylene rather than polyethylene which I seem to recall from some dim and distant memory requires more complication?

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I'm wondering what an epoxy sandwich minisail with a decent sized centreboard and modern rig might go like.

Bat escaping the fires of hell springs to mind.


20kg hull, decent foils, sliding seat on rails to move fore and aft, carbon spars, really nice sail if you have some money to burn, it would be easy enough to find out. Isn't that the exact thing you are complaining of other classes doing? Get someone to tweak the design while you are about it, both to reflect modern thinking and to work better with the weight loss, too.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 7:48pm
Yes I guess it is, but, what other class has the wash through hull design, sliding seat option, potential for open rig design, it's not as if you're locking folk into anything, like perpetual self balers, daggerboards, like the streaker..

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 8:36pm
Topper website claim original design and tooling was a cool 1,000,000. 
The  mold pressure required is 1600 tons.
The price states from 2,795, they state for this you get cheapest most up to date racing dinghy in the world.
Graeme, Have you looked at design for "Meson" ?
This was the last design of Minisail family, it is mk2 Sprint without Plank turrets, this would give a platform for your design ideas, wings, masts etc.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 9:03pm
No, not come across a 'Meson' have you a link? Is it on the minisail site?

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 9:21pm
I don't think their were many built, probably single figures, their is one in process of restoration, centre board, wash through hull, better sliding plank mechanism, try a search on minisail site.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 9:38pm
Yep found that, nearly got wood poisoning watching it.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 9:45pm
You can build it light though, using wood, look at Moths, not sure if plans are available.
I may do a number on a Sprint mk2 hull, remove turrets, fit trampoline wings.


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 12:37am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

Should Proctor have redesigned the Minisail for injection moulding too, as a larger version?

My understanding is that the injection moulding was only practicable because it was also a technology demonstration, and the investment was written off against that.
I'm very out of date on this stuff and was never in that part of the plastics industry, but my understanding is that the tooling for injection moulding is way way more expensive than roto moulding (which I don't think really got going until the 80s for sophisticated fabrications)

IIRC  the  length of the topper  is  the maximum that could be made with the  injection moudling machines in  question 


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 9:10am
Does injection moulding tooling ever wear out? 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Does injection moulding tooling ever wear out?

It does, but it seems to me on something the size of the Topper mould it might be localised and repairable. Also if it only does a few hundred units a year, the actual rate of wear might be rather less than on something pumping out a few million plastic toys...



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