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Bad Back issues & Bowen Treatment

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Topic: Bad Back issues & Bowen Treatment
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Bad Back issues & Bowen Treatment
Date Posted: 27 Oct 15 at 8:02pm
Not sure where to stick this, but as i mentioned elsewhere for the first time in my life I've been having back problems, it's probably a culmination of age, a big house move, a big office move, more enthusiastic hiking in closer racing and humping the bloody things up shingle as usual, although it doesn't pain me to much sailing, it has of late seized in awkward positions so i've taken myself off to the source of relief that proved so effective with the frozen shoulder last winter.

I was tipped off about Bowen therapy by an windsurfer of my forum acquaintence and although sceptical at first the thought of being rammed with steroids, the conventional medical solution to frozen shoulders filled me with horror, I never ever take any form of drug unless it's very late I'm p1ssed and someone passes it to me.
So this therapy is very low impact, so low impact you wonder how the hell it can do anything, but I went yesterday and woke up this morning all pain gone, so if you're looking for a painless alternative, I can say it's worth a go, it works by correcting posture amongst other things.

http://www.bowen-technique.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Worth a read there could be one near you

Don't say I never tell you anything useful.

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Replies:
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 28 Oct 15 at 4:36pm
Ive been having Bowen for a few years now for my knee, its basically allowed me to walk.  just dont stop,  prevention is better than cure and when ive gone too long without a treatment im in agony until its sorted.



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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 29 Oct 15 at 11:20am
.........launching trolleys, aaaargh.


I've done my share of hard manual labour over the years but it was pulling boats around on shingle beaches that b*ggered my back up.

If boat bit manufacturers want to improve their products then they need to give trolley design a little more attention. 

Walking seems to help. I shall follow your link and read with interest.


Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 30 Oct 15 at 12:05am
There is next to no scientific evidence that Bowen has any therapeutic value. The trials that have been conducted have had small sample sizes, and they have not been methodologically rigorous. Any benefit you feel is likely to be a placebo effect. If this is costing you money, I would seriously advise against pursuing this line of treatment. Otherwise, you risk being exploited by people with no medical training, practicing a 'therapy' with next to no science backing it up. See this link for further info on the lack of evidence behind Bowen (the paucity of Cochrane and Pubmed references is particularly damning):

https://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/bowen-therapy-all-fingers-and-thumbs/

You might also want to consult Quackwatch at 

www.quackwatch.org

The latter is a good source if you're trying to figure out if the claims made by 'alternative' or 'complementary' therapies are justified by rigorous science. Personally, I wouldn't allow some fly-by-night to defraud me of my hard-earned cash, and I certainly wouldn't let some charlatan masquerading as a healer near by body.


Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 30 Oct 15 at 12:07am
And best of luck with the recovery. Nothing worse than being kept off the water by pain. Is there nothing a physio could help with? I've been attending a sports physio for back and knee injuries (too much weight lifting, too little stretching), and I've found it immensely useful. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Oct 15 at 8:44am
Not been near the NHS lately then dohertpk, I wouldn't go near it if you paid me money, their answer last time? Pump me full of steroids, Bowen fixed it in three weeks, not a single drug it's been cool ever since.

Sports Physios?

I know a few. Mostly kids at our club, products of Blairs University for everyman, I wouldn't go near them with a barge pole.

The only thing that gets me near the modern medical world is being un conscious in an ambulance and then I break out as soon as I can get out of the neck brace and undo the restraints.

Bowen works for me, it worked for a couple of other windsurfers I know and like acupuncture unless you try it you'll never know. (I"m not so convinced acupuncture is anything other than temporary relief by the way).

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Posted By: BVS
Date Posted: 30 Oct 15 at 12:41pm
Easy to knock something like Bowen but it fixed my persistent Golfer's elbow which multiple visits to a Physio failed to do. Placebo? I don't think so - I was expecting Physio to work and I was highly doubtful about Bowen.

As for medical studies, I've started ignoring those - is red wine good or bad for you this week?




Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 30 Oct 15 at 6:11pm
3rd visit to the osteopath today in 3 weeks. Put my neck, shoulder, and elbow out trying to lift a 400 mast into the boat by myself. Gave up the pills after a couple of weeks: the diazepam was interesting! Osteo now suspecting a prolapsed disc in my neck as being the source of the problem and a scan being arranged. So a few more weeks of extreme discomfort yet. Alcohol I'm afraid is the only way! So just off to Sainsburys....


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 31 Oct 15 at 6:57pm
I suffered a prolapsed disc at C5-6 a few years ago. A sports physio unlocked my shoulder over a 10wk period, and I had recurring problems for about 18months. Top spinal surgeon in the land (John Hutchinson) advised me just to try and carry on leading as normal a life as possible. He is sailor himself and knew I sailed but said unless symptoms get really bad ie. loss of bladder control, then just keep going.

Interestingly most studies suggest if you can put up with it, then your body will generally sort itself out after a few years. Unfortunately its likely to be the athritis in my spine that will end up causing me problems.

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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 31 Oct 15 at 10:42pm
Many but not all joint or back problems can be alleviated by:

Losing weight.

Developing the muscles around the injury.

....Oh, if a placebo works then use it. I know we all like to think we're above such things but psychological effects influence us all.  


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 5:13pm
Got some more good news today, apparently they do race horses and more importantly my lady, Rebecca reckons she can do dogs, so Milo and I can both get sorted together..

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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 18 Dec 15 at 7:23pm
Try some Homeopathy too maybe?  Jeremy Hunt thinks it works ... so it must be good!

As far as sailing's concerned .. physio every time and stay away from GPs and Surgeons


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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 20 Dec 15 at 7:08pm
Anecdotal evidence is completely useless when it comes to evaluating the effectiveness of a treatment.  How you do you know that you wouldn't have got better three weeks later anyway, without Bowen?

The only thing that you can really rely on are properly randomised, double blind, placebo controlled studies, not stories from other people.


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 20 Dec 15 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by NickA

Try some Homeopathy too maybe?  Jeremy Hunt thinks it works ... so it must be good!

As far as sailing's concerned .. physio every time and stay away from GPs and Surgeons

You could equally try seeing a witch doctor.  They've been categorically proven to be just as effective.


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 20 Dec 15 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by BVS

 ...snip...

As for medical studies, I've started ignoring those - is red wine good or bad for you this week?



Perhaps ignoring the intellectually lazy mainstream media would be a better option, rather than trying to fight the cold hard truths of the universe Wink


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Dec 15 at 8:36pm
I heard about it from a friend I've never met other than on the internet, so it must be true, rather take my chances with something like Bowen, than enter the disaster that is our modern health service, then I don't suppose many of you have experienced what the health service used to be like when you could trust a doctors diagnosis.
Doctors these days are the products of the 80's and 90's & 00's education system or they come from overseas, cannot speak English, now A&E might still return a half decent service, but backs, shoulders, aches and pains, sorry, you're far better off outside the system, is my experience and being told to ram myself full of steroids which was the alternative, sorry foxtrot oscar, I'd rather stick needles in my eyes.

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Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 20 Dec 15 at 10:49pm
Nothing like a bit of casual racism stirred in with your anti-intellectualism is there?


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 20 Dec 15 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by iGRF

...snip...
Doctors these days are the products of the 80's and 90's & 00's education system...

As am I... and yet here I am talking about science and here you are talking about voodoo Wink


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 9:43am
I'm as racist as the next man when it comes to my health and if there were any hint of intellectual behaviour in the NHS then maybe I wouldn't be as anti, nor would I be entertaining doctors moronic enough to be wasting time posting on internet forums.

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:21am
Trust NHS Doctors? Seriously, you mean trust people who choose medicine for a profession and then expected public healthcare to fit into standard office hours??? f**k that... I'd take my chances with private practices which stand or fall on $$$ and positive customer feedback first too thanks. NHS is a last option, even then they'll probably f**k up the palliative care...


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:33am
Originally posted by iGRF

I'm as racist as the next man when it comes to my health and if there were any hint of intellectual behaviour in the NHS then maybe I wouldn't be as anti, nor would I be entertaining doctors moronic enough to be wasting time posting on internet forums.

I'm not a doctor, nor do I work for the NHS or anything else remotely public sector.  I just take offence to flawed logic Tongue


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:47am
You take offence at someone offering a bit of helpful advice based on an actual positive experience?

You need to have a word with yourself, or maybe try one of those extremely helpful NHS counsellors..

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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:59am
Originally posted by iGRF

You take offence at someone offering a bit of helpful advice based on an actual positive experience?

You need to have a word with yourself, or maybe try one of those extremely helpful NHS counsellors..

I refer you to the below:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

I take offence to flawed decision making and advice in matters of health, not people offering helpful advice.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 12:06pm
How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    



Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    


Because there is absolutely no evidence that it did work.  Anecdotes are worse than useless when it comes to making decisions on treatments.  

The advice:

"There's a therapy that I think might work for you, here are some studies that show how and when it's effective and why" 

would be helpful.  

"My dog's brother was cured of cancer by visiting a chi alignment specialist, you'd be mad to trust the NHS" 

is what is not helpful.  

There's an important distinction between these two.


Posted By: ventus
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    


Must say it's nice to see you and grf are back your antagonistic best.

Your and especially grfs posts have been so balanced and reasonable in the last few weeks, that I just assumed that your accounts had been hacked.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 1:33pm
that one wasn't antagonistic...  peer-to-peer advice is often some of the best we can receive in life.   Yet when it comes to health and nutrition, we can so easily get blinded by science.  We default to a position of trusting educated 'experts', many of whom may not have first hand experience of either the ailment or the alternative treatment.  Sure, I'm not saying the entire medical industry is full of crooks and charlatans, but do me a favour - trust them? Pharma companies, the NHS and the GPs on kick backs.... no thanks. 

Besides someone saying something worked for them, is not the same as them saying 'it will cure you'.  My conclusion on something like this, I wouldn't knock it till I tried it.    


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    


Because there is absolutely no evidence that it did work. 

apart from the guy saying first hand that he noticed a benefit?  OK then, that's not enough for you maybe, but I'd give it a go before resorting to NHS quacks and chemicals.  


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    


Because there is absolutely no evidence that it did work. 

apart from the guy saying first hand that he noticed a benefit?  OK then, that's not enough for you maybe, but I'd give it a go before resorting to NHS quacks and chemicals.  

And how does the chap who is reporting this first hand account have any idea that the benefit he noticed can actually be attributed to the treatment in question and not something else?  

Perhaps he was going to get better anyway.
Perhaps he ate an over-ripe avocado and over-ripe avocado happens to contain a previously undiscovered cure for his condition.
Perhaps an earlier treatement he tried and decided doesn't work, actually did work.

I'm not saying he's doing it with malicious intent but the fact is,   there is no evidence of any connection between the two events.

Maybe I'm wrong... feel free to point out where the proof is Wink



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    


Because there is absolutely no evidence that it did work. 

apart from the guy saying first hand that he noticed a benefit?  OK then, that's not enough for you maybe, but I'd give it a go before resorting to NHS quacks and chemicals.  

And how does the chap who is reporting this first hand account have any idea that the benefit he noticed can actually be attributed to the treatment in question and not something else?

I'm not saying he's doing it with malicious intent but the fact is,   there is no evidence of any connection between the two events.

Maybe I'm wrong... feel free to point out where the proof is Wink


mate, there's clinical research to suggest a placebo is as a good as a cure if care to hunt the evidence on the internet hard enough.  

But you prove the guy who claims to feel better from it is 'wrong' before I justify he's right, which he is, if he feel better for it, who the hell are we to tell him it was probably the Toffee Crisp in the waiting room, not the treatment he's received?


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    


Because there is absolutely no evidence that it did work. 

apart from the guy saying first hand that he noticed a benefit?  OK then, that's not enough for you maybe, but I'd give it a go before resorting to NHS quacks and chemicals.  

And how does the chap who is reporting this first hand account have any idea that the benefit he noticed can actually be attributed to the treatment in question and not something else?

I'm not saying he's doing it with malicious intent but the fact is,   there is no evidence of any connection between the two events.

Maybe I'm wrong... feel free to point out where the proof is Wink


mate, there's clinical research to suggest a placebo is as a good as a cure if care to hunt the evidence on the internet hard enough.  

But you prove the guy who claims to feel better from it is 'wrong' before I justify he's right, which he is, if he feel better for it, who the hell are we to tell him it was probably the Toffee Crisp in the waiting room, not the treatment he's received?

 That was my point... It could well have been placebo and not actually the treatment.  It seems you agree with me after all.  Hurrah he's better!  Even if it was placebo, I doubt it makes any difference to him, he'll be just as happy.  Doesn't mean you can start claiming that bowen works and we should all rise up against mainstream medicine.  All you could possibly claim is that placebo works, and we all knew that anyway.  How do we know? Because the same scientific methods used to prove/disprove the claims in mainstream medicine have been used to prove that it does.

On to your second point...

I'm not the one who's claiming anything, so it's not up to me to prove anything.  I'm just pointing out the flaws in people's reasoning.

Regardless, I did just throw reasonable doubt on the fact that it was the treatment and not the toffee crisp/over-ripe avocado he allegedly ate.  Unless you now have anything to add that removes that doubt, the doubt remains and the point I was trying to make, is made.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:05pm
Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received.  The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   

I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    

My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:20pm
Feel free to point out where...  Do me a favour and help me get it right by doing to my argument what I'm doing to yours below.  

Originally posted by turnturtle

Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

So far so good.  Bloke feels better, life is good.


Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received

Aaaah now we're starting to get onto shakey ground.  I'll grant you a pass on that for now...


Originally posted by turnturtle

 The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   



Aaaand now I won't.  No, the treatment hasn't worked in this isolated case.  you have no idea what worked.  I refer you back to the undocumented over-ripe avocado situation.

All you know is this:
1. man felt sick
2. man lived his life for a few weeks
3. man feels better

There is absolutely no way you can say which of the billions of little things that happened in his life during point 2, resulted in point 3.   You cannot in any way say that the treatment worked in this isolated case.  You have no idea that it did.  Neither does he.   Please do point out where the flaw is in this point I'm making.  


Originally posted by turnturtle


I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    


Good, neither am I.  What you are saying though, is that it worked in this isolated case, which is wrong.  You have no idea whether it worked in this case.
Originally posted by turnturtle


My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    

Same here, I might try it to, if it thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. Even if I was then cured, I wouldn't go round claiming that it worked on that basis alone.  Once you've committed to thinking about things properly, there's no turning back unfortunately.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:49pm
If it worked for him, and he's convinced, then it worked - albeit in an isolated case.  Take enough people extolling the virtues (as you have with Bowen Therapy) and you have quantifiable social sample, even if said collective was not created in the artificial environment of lab or university research centre.   There are many ways to generate evidence, I wouldn't overlook Anthropological techniques if we're getting detailed- and they would back this up, along with Chinese herbs and all manner of other non-western mainstream practice.  

Please remember, you are trying to discredit what someone feels about their own well-being after seeking independent help, and then being content with that help they received.  And you claim that I am on shaky philosophic ground?  Have you considered your own ethical position?  Do you discredit all forms of non-invasive and non-prescriptive psychiatric help too?  Or just because this is deemed 'clinical' or 'mainstream' enough to get (a woeful) central Government funding stream via the National Health Service, it's OK and valid?    

Sure, I can see where you are going - in that Chaos Theory means it could well be that overly-ripe avocado, or indeed the particular brand of vaginal lubricant his wife used last night; how do we really, really know anything about the world we live in and the bodies we inhabit?  However I'd go on a more basic cause and effect theory myself- and there's enough folks extolling the virtues of Bowen to not discredit it as flatly as you do- especially in the face of someone who has just received treatment and seems happy with their experience.   

This has been an interesting debate - beats PY and whether the Aero is sh*t or not.  I guess like the Aero, I'd say you probably have to try it before really writing it off.  



Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

If it worked for him, and he's convinced, then it worked - albeit in an isolated case.

Let's just agree to disagree on the definition of "something working" then and move on.

Originally posted by turnturtle

  Take enough people extolling the virtues (as you have with Bowen Therapy) and you have quantifiable social sample, even if said collective was not created in the artificial environment of lab or university research centre.   There are many ways to generate evidence, I wouldn't overlook Anthropological techniques if we're getting detailed- and they would back this up, along with Chinese herbs and all manner of other non-western mainstream practice.  

I'll stick to things that survive a randomised double blind placebo controlled trial if at all possible thanks.  It's a pretty simple concept, and it's rather good at separating the truth from the b**locks.

Originally posted by turnturtle


Please remember, you are trying to discredit what someone feels about their own well-being after seeking independent help, and then being content with that help they received. 

I'm not attempting to discredit how someone feels about their own well being.  I'm discrediting using that to extol the virtues of unproven treatments.  Doing so has life or death implications in some situations.

Originally posted by turnturtle


 And you claim that I am on shaky philosophic ground?  Have you considered your own ethical position?  Do you discredit all forms of non-invasive and non-prescriptive psychiatric help too?  Or just because this is deemed 'clinical' or 'mainstream' enough to get (a woeful) central Government funding stream via the National Health Service, it's OK and valid?    


I'm doing this because of my ethical position.  Encouraging people to make bad choices regarding their health based on little to no evidence whilst swatting away what mainstream science has to say is horribly irresponsible. I'm not saying that's what you're setting out to do necessarily, just that that might be the effect.  



Originally posted by turnturtle

Sure, I can see where you are going - in that Chaos Theory means it could well be that overly-ripe avocado, or indeed the particular brand of vaginal lubricant his wife used last night; how do we really, really know anything about the world we live in and the bodies we inhabit? 

It's actually very simple. You subject the treatment you think works to a proper controlled study with sufficient numbers of participants and the correct procedures around it and as if by magic, you find out the truth.  

There are no excuses for not doing so really.  

There's a name for alternative medicines that have gone through this process and have been proven to work...  medicine.

Originally posted by turnturtle

 However I'd go on a more basic cause and effect theory myself- and there's enough folks extolling the virtues of Bowen to not discredit it as flatly as you do- especially in the face of someone who has just received treatment and seems happy with their experience.   

Well, for a new treatement, perhaps that could be the case.  I'd say that it would warrant some proper studies being done to find out the truth about it.  I wouldn't say that "lots of people say that it works" means that it works, the fact that homeopathy survives is evidence enough of that.

Originally posted by turnturtle

This has been an interesting debate - beats PY and whether the Aero is sh*t or not.  I guess like the Aero, I'd say you probably have to try it before really writing it off.  



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by bustinben

 

There's a name for alternative medicines that have gone through this process and have been proven to work...  medicine.


if there's a antonym for Godwin's Law on the internet, then it's probably paraphrasing Tim Minchin.  


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

 

There's a name for alternative medicines that have gone through this process and have been proven to work...  medicine.


if there's a antonym for Godwin's Law on the internet, then it's probably paraphrasing Tim Minchin.  

If you can prove him wrong you're probably going to win a nobel prize LOL  When you do, feel free to come back here and gloat, I'll eat my humble pie.



Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Feel free to point out where...  Do me a favour and help me get it right by doing to my argument what I'm doing to yours below.  

Originally posted by turnturtle

Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

So far so good.  Bloke feels better, life is good.


Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received

Aaaah now we're starting to get onto shakey ground.  I'll grant you a pass on that for now...


Originally posted by turnturtle

 The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   



Aaaand now I won't.  No, the treatment hasn't worked in this isolated case.  you have no idea what worked.  I refer you back to the undocumented over-ripe avocado situation.

All you know is this:
1. man felt sick
2. man lived his life for a few weeks
3. man feels better

There is absolutely no way you can say which of the billions of little things that happened in his life during point 2, resulted in point 3.   You cannot in any way say that the treatment worked in this isolated case.  You have no idea that it did.  Neither does he.   Please do point out where the flaw is in this point I'm making.  


Originally posted by turnturtle


I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    


Good, neither am I.  What you are saying though, is that it worked in this isolated case, which is wrong.  You have no idea whether it worked in this case.
Originally posted by turnturtle


My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    

Same here, I might try it to, if it thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. Even if I was then cured, I wouldn't go round claiming that it worked on that basis alone.  Once you've committed to thinking about things properly, there's no turning back unfortunately.


As someone who refused bowen at first (several years infact) for being hippy mumbo jumbo, but took it on as an almost last resort and feeling better because of it i can say hand on heart its not a placebo in the sense you are suggesting (red pill / blue pill), yes my brain could want the pain gone so bad it tricks itself anyway and could be that placebo effect, but as you say without measuring the billions of things that occur daily no one can know. Please tell me who is able in the medical world able to measure these billions of things to prove otherwise?  If you are able to prove  me wrong about the pain i feel in my own body then you can save me some money and find me the fix all solution too.  cheers in advance, i look forward to pain free work and sailing......


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:45pm
It wasn't so long ago folk regarded Osteopathy in the same manner, personally I still do, the relief it brings for me is only temporary and the following day you end up feeling worse.

This Bowen things is as much about the way it is delivered as what it is that is being delivered, so until you try it you'll never know.

As for logic trolls, you are never going to convince them of anything other than that you have responded to the booming resonance of their self righteous disaproval.

So tell them it's time to play a game of f**k off and they should go first..

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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by bustinben

Feel free to point out where...  Do me a favour and help me get it right by doing to my argument what I'm doing to yours below.  

Originally posted by turnturtle

Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

So far so good.  Bloke feels better, life is good.


Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received

Aaaah now we're starting to get onto shakey ground.  I'll grant you a pass on that for now...


Originally posted by turnturtle

 The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   



Aaaand now I won't.  No, the treatment hasn't worked in this isolated case.  you have no idea what worked.  I refer you back to the undocumented over-ripe avocado situation.

All you know is this:
1. man felt sick
2. man lived his life for a few weeks
3. man feels better

There is absolutely no way you can say which of the billions of little things that happened in his life during point 2, resulted in point 3.   You cannot in any way say that the treatment worked in this isolated case.  You have no idea that it did.  Neither does he.   Please do point out where the flaw is in this point I'm making.  


Originally posted by turnturtle


I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    


Good, neither am I.  What you are saying though, is that it worked in this isolated case, which is wrong.  You have no idea whether it worked in this case.
Originally posted by turnturtle


My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    

Same here, I might try it to, if it thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. Even if I was then cured, I wouldn't go round claiming that it worked on that basis alone.  Once you've committed to thinking about things properly, there's no turning back unfortunately.


As someone who refused bowen at first (several years infact) for being hippy mumbo jumbo, but took it on as an almost last resort and feeling better because of it i can say hand on heart its not a placebo in the sense you are suggesting (red pill / blue pill), yes my brain could want the pain gone so bad it tricks itself anyway and could be that placebo effect, but as you say without measuring the billions of things that occur daily no one can know. Please tell me who is able in the medical world able to measure these billions of things to prove otherwise?  If you are able to prove  me wrong about the pain i feel in my own body then you can save me some money and find me the fix all solution too.  cheers in advance, i look forward to pain free work and sailing......


You can know. A placebo controlled double blind trial does just that.  You take a large enough group of people, you randomise them into two groups, you subject half to the treatment, half to a pretence at the treatment. 

You measure the outcomes and you apply the proper statistical methods to verify that your result didn't happen by chance.

http://i-base.info/ttfa/8-clinical-trials-and-research/8-7-randomised-double-blind-placebo-controlled-trials/

Double blinding is not always possible depending on the treatment in question, but it's the standard that should be aspired to.

I'm genuinely interested in how you know that what you feel in your own body is not placebo.  You'd be the first person in history to be able to do that.  The placebo effect is amazing, strange, and incredibly effective seeing as it is basically nothing.   Red pills are more effective than white ones, how much you pay changes the amount of pain relief you feel, placebo injections are more effective than placebo pills, but neither are as effective as placebo operations...

All of these things have been measured properly in repeatable studies.




Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by iGRF

It wasn't so long ago folk regarded Osteopathy in the same manner, personally I still do, the relief it brings for me is only temporary and the following day you end up feeling worse.

This Bowen things is as much about the way it is delivered as what it is that is being delivered, so until you try it you'll never know.

As for logic trolls, you are never going to convince them of anything other than that you have responded to the booming resonance of their self righteous disaproval.

So tell them it's time to play a game of f**k off and they should go first..

Logic trolls LOL  Otherwise known as "someone being rational" LOL  Isn't that a bit like being a truth troll, or 
"not talking utter b**locks".  Seems like a confusing term.

Anyway, I've made my point, feel free to go back extolling the virtues of whatever boat is going to replace the laser and revive our failing sport Wink


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 5:20pm
No you're not someone being rational, you're someone on the internet being 'offended' for the purpose of narcissistic authoritarianism, in love with the sound of their own irritating keystroke clicks and garnering pleasure in the reasoned response of that whom you claim to have been offended by.

Or to but it another way...

By being a Dick. Happy Christmas Mr Head.

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Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by bustinben




You can know. A placebo controlled double blind trial does just that.  You take a large enough group of people, you randomise them into two groups, you subject half to the treatment, half to a pretence at the treatment. 

You measure the outcomes and you apply the proper statistical methods to verify that your result didn't happen by chance.

http://i-base.info/ttfa/8-clinical-trials-and-research/8-7-randomised-double-blind-placebo-controlled-trials/

Double blinding is not always possible depending on the treatment in question, but it's the standard that should be aspired to.

I'm genuinely interested in how you know that what you feel in your own body is not placebo.  You'd be the first person in history to be able to do that.  The placebo effect is amazing, strange, and incredibly effective seeing as it is basically nothing.   Red pills are more effective than white ones, how much you pay changes the amount of pain relief you feel, placebo injections are more effective than placebo pills, but neither are as effective as placebo operations...

All of these things have been measured properly in repeatable studies.




Apart from the fact that when the results of the "Gold Standard" placebo controlled trial are published the good and the great of the medical profession will not agree on the results and argue for and against the outcomes, should have been done this way, or that way, sample size not big enough, not in western europe, average age too high, why did they exclude group A, B etc and why did they include group C, D etc and on and on and on.....

I've seen it too many times to believe there is not doubt in every set of data, and to be honest most medics seem to rely on the experiences of their patients. Don't care what the data says, if it works for their patients they will continue to use it...

There are also widely publicized campaigns based on zero data. For example 5 portions of fruit and veg a day, I doubt there is a person in the UK who hasn't heard that and most probably believe it is backed by extensive data, fact is it's just a made up number to encourage us all to eat more fruit and veg.




Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by iGRF

No you're not someone being rational, you're someone on the internet being 'offended' for the purpose of narcissistic authoritarianism, in love with the sound of their own irritating keystroke clicks and garnering pleasure in the reasoned response of that whom you claim to have been offended by.

Or to but it another way...

By being a Dick. Happy Christmas Mr Head.


Surely you see the irony here? No? Just me?

The scattering of toys around the GRF pram is indication enough for me. Thanks for conceding so graciously


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Roger


Originally posted by bustinben

You can know. A<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> placebo controlled double blind trial does just that.  You take a large enough group of people, you randomise them into two groups, you subject half to the treatment, half to a pretence at the treatment. </span>
You measure the outcomes and you apply the proper statistical methods to verify that your result didn't happen by chance.
http://i-base.info/ttfa/8-clinical-trials-and-research/8-7-randomised-double-blind-placebo-controlled-trials/
Double blinding is not always possible depending on the treatment in question, but it's the standard that should be aspired to.
I'm genuinely interested in how you know that what you feel in your own body is not placebo.  You'd be the first person in history to be able to do that.  The placebo effect is amazing, strange, and incredibly effective seeing as it is basically nothing.   Red pills are more effective than white ones, how much you pay changes the amount of pain relief you feel, placebo injections are more effective than placebo pills, but neither are as effective as placebo operations...
All of these things have been measured properly in repeatable studies.
Apart from the fact that when the results of the "Gold Standard" placebo controlled trial are published the good and the great of the medical profession will not agree on the results and argue for and against the outcomes, should have been done this way, or that way, sample size not big enough, not in western europe, average age too high, why did they exclude group A, B etc and why did they include group C, D etc and on and on and on.....I've seen it too many times to believe there is not doubt in every set of data, and to be honest most medics seem to rely on the experiences of their patients. Don't care what the data says, if it works for their patients they will continue to use it...There are also widely publicized campaigns based on zero data. For example 5 portions of fruit and veg a day, I doubt there is a person in the UK who hasn't heard that and most probably believe it is backed by extensive data, fact is it's just a made up number to encourage us all to eat more fruit and veg.


There is truth in all of that. And just because there is a study doesn't mean the matter is settled. Studies vary greatly in quality. I read one the other day that claimed that homeopathic arnica had a statistically significant effect. Then I read more closely and discovered they had redefined the meaning of stastically significant. Oh and that it had been funded by a company that makes homeopathic arnica.

It's a jungle out there, but at least if you understand how these things work you stand a chance.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:14pm
[QUOTE=bustinben]
Surely you see the irony here? No? Just me?

Fraid so, just you again, and my toys and surprisingly even the dummy? still here in the pram.

Bowen does that for you, calms you down, as well as correcting all the other stuff.

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 12:35am
Let's face it Ben, there are two posters here who say it worked for them. According to you there is no quantifiable study out there to prove what they say. My idea would be you get two posters who have tried it and think it's a crock of sh*t to post back, then there's a real debate, not this pseudo scientific process bullsh*t from the sidelines...


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 1:19am
Moving the subject on a bit... My neighbour is a GP and as I was chatting to him at the village panto last week he said something I found very thought provoking. Crudely speaking, He said the aim of life is basically to be happy, and being healthy is just a means to an end to achieve that. But there are sad healthy people and happy poorly people. His suggestion was that doctors should be looking to make people happy, and improving their health is just one way to achieve that. If giving them theatre tickets is cheaper and ultimately more effective at increasing happiness than a painful and potentially unsuccesful medical treatment, then perhaps that is a pragmatic prescription? I'm paraphrasing, but you get the gist.

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Posted By: didlydon
Date Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 9:36am
That's a very noble & buddhist idea Mr Peaky... striving to be happy (according to my missus who's a member of SGI...google it..) Happy Christmas One & All!!! Tongue

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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 10:11am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Let's face it Ben, there are two posters here who say it worked for them. According to you there is no quantifiable study out there to prove what they say. My idea would be you get two posters who have tried it and think it's a crock of sh*t to post back, then there's a real debate, not this pseudo scientific process bullsh*t from the sidelines...

Well that's because you see value in anecdotal accounts of successful treatment and I don't - from my point of view that would be a pointless debate.  I get it, you don't see the value in clinical trials, you think they're "pseudo scientific process bullsh*t", whereas I think they're very much "science".

Let's move on!  

P.S. for the record I never said anything about bowen being effective or not, I just said that anecdotal accounts of it working are meaningless and that you need much more before turning your back on proven treatments.  I've never looked in any detail at it.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 12:11pm
Well here's a thing, if I came on and said there's a guy in Southampton giving away free <insert boat of your choice> if you answered a couple of simple questions that I then went on to detail, would that anedotal account be any more meaningful in improving you circumstance?

For some of us, anecdotal advice from folk who's opinion we respect is more valuable than that from nhs hirelings, as it was from my interwebchum Max the windsurfer... It's just opinion, detailed in a helpful post on a bulletin board, act on it, or act on it not, most readers here are bright enough to make their own decision without some representative from the Association of Narcissistic Authoritarian Logic Trolls helping them out with the decision making process.

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 1:14pm
I'd define science as the history and future of human discovery.  There are many ways to achieve that, and when we look back at humanity over the hundreds of thousands of years it has been able to record itself, or we take whatever glimpse we can into the future before it unfolds; labs, double blind trials and university research centres make up on a very small minutiae of contribution to the scientific cannon.

I have also not said I don't see a value in clinical trials, I just question their merit to be the one and only authority on any given subject as you seem to suggest.  And as Roger points out, they all seem to come with their individual detractors from within their own academic / research peer group; so please, as a layman, forget trying to give them too much credibility when their own kind think most of these studies have questionable techniques, methods and outcomes.  Give me a real world opinion, free from political bias or commercial agenda, any day over that.    Give me two or three opinions roughly in the same direction, like we have here, and frankly, things like Bowen begin to hold water.  


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 23 Dec 15 at 12:06am
So how do you decide which people to believe and which not?

A significant number of people believe:
That homeopathy is real and effective
That praying to Mother Teresa can cure terminal cancer
That ibuprofen is an effective anti-inflammatory and painkiller

How do you eliminate the first two?


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 23 Dec 15 at 7:09am
Does it matter? Perception is reality and all that.

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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 23 Dec 15 at 8:36am
Well Golden Graeme has convinced us all beyond reasonable doubt that the RYA is underhandly manipulating the Dinghy market for its own dubious ends so he must be right about Bowen ......oh wait a minute.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Dec 15 at 9:10am
Golden Graeme... why no one has called me that since the year I was turned down for Sports Personality of the year 1981 because of my outspokenviews on pikeys.

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 23 Dec 15 at 1:34pm
... and there was me thinking it was the views on homosexuals, not the travelling community.  whatever next, rationale debate from BustinBalls back there?


Posted By: George Cousins
Date Posted: 26 Jan 16 at 12:55pm
Without sounding too self important, im an ex Laser Squadie and qualified Strength and conditioning coach, so this is an area I feel I can help with.

Back pain resulting from hiking will be due to tight or tonic hip flexor muscle-chiefly the Psoa.

In terms of structural integrity of the hip and causing muscular imbalances, hiking is one of the worst activities for creating over developed /overactive muscles on one side of the joint which will lead to injury or pain. But this doesn't mean you need to stop.

Your back pain isn't caused by a problem with your lower back muscles (Spinal erectors). It is likely caused by tight and overactive hip flexors pulling on the lower back.

To make matters worse after we sail we often then sit in a car on the way home. So the Psoas muscle has been activated and gets short while sailing, then it is set in a a shorted state afterwards.

REMEDY: You need to lengthen and stretch the Psoas which is on the front of the hip (anterior), and also strength the muscles on the posterior hip.

BOWEN: Is a bit hit and miss. However there are other techniques you can do on your self. SMFR Self -Myofascial release will work. Follow the techniques in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4nWPeyDfNM In addition do a hip stretch straight after sailing prior to driving home without exception.

Your shortened hip flexor may also be causing a Lumbar pelvic tilt. This will shorten the low back muscles and may casue pain and inhibit mobility. To cure this you need to
-Stretch the low back
-Stretch the Psoas
-Strengthen the Glutes, hamstrings and abdominal muscles. (Ideally in the gym- Deadlifts, lunges, squats etc)

Another reason for pain may be weak abdominal muslces when hiking. If they are weak then you will bow forward and hang off th hip flexors. You often see this when you compare the hiking posture of a poor sailor to a professional.

So you need to strengthen the abdominal muscles while ensuring you are not shortening the Psoas muscle further. You do this by Doing exercises which involve maximilly tyhe abbs. Eg Planks, sit ups and crunches, V sits. Google' Anti extension core exercises'. After each set of abb exercises you must then do a hip flexor stretch, to ensure the hip is being lengthened.

I have used this method with many athletes I have coached. Im sure it will help.

Cheers.












Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Jan 16 at 3:06pm
Why thank you George, er just a wild guess on my part, but have you reached your fortieth birthday yet?

It's just that when you do, some 28 years later things won't work quite as well, so all those nasty exercise things you talk of.. er no thanks, got that t Shirt a long time ago now. Sailing is supposed to be a gentile sport for us old boys to quietly retire in boats called dignity.. and dignity does not involve all that nasty hikey nonesense, but thanks for your advice for our younger readers just the same I'm sure they cant wait to try it.. meanwhile I'll stick to my periodic Bowen where I can fantasize about matron giving me a happy ending

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jan 16 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by iGRF

and dignity does not involve all that nasty hikey nonesense


Perhaps all sailing gear should have a black band say two thirds of the way from knee to cheek, and hiking out with the black band unsupported by structure prohibited...


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 26 Jan 16 at 10:18pm
Well JimC while in no way wishing to get personal but don't I see you sitting upright on a plank? Tongue in cheek perhaps.

I'm inclined to agree somewhat with GRF on this one.

Firstly to be clear I do have full respect for professionals in biomechanics.

I do find it a subject of wry amusement though, all the collective wisdom directed at solving a problem of our own making.  Com'on people on the one hand we worry about sailing being elitist and inaccessible and on the other talk of professional sailors with good technique vs weekenders.

Make boats with a righting moment matched to their sail area, simples Wink. More use of sit on winglets, people have evolved to carry loads in the vertical posture, hanging out horizontally unsupported is just plain wrong. Yeh yeh I hear the cries of man up or ship out and no pain no gain, how about the other one, if it's hurting you're doing it wrong?

Want even more? Get a trapeze boat, single handers with a kind hull form are quite accessible to non athletes and two person single trapeze give power without pain.

  
  


Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 26 Jan 16 at 10:26pm
Or just go multihull...


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jan 16 at 10:35pm
Or bung lead on the bottom, or sail a West Wight Scow.

Personally, I don't think trapping is the answer to the problem, it needs a whole new level of commitment.

Which isn't to say it isn't fun, and worth doing in its own right.

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