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Yet another which boats question

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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12105
Printed Date: 22 Oct 20 at 9:35am
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Topic: Yet another which boats question
Posted By: Happilyover40
Subject: Yet another which boats question
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 3:53pm
Hi

Have just started sailing the club's 2000 with a fellow club member.  We are fairly large team SmileSmile well I am 15st and I recon he is a wee bit heavier. We do not take things too seriously but we started off being last across the line a few weeks ago and are now starting to move up the fleet. 
We feel that we may have to buy a boat rather than constantly use the club's one. 

The club sailing is an inland loch and the races are approx 45 -60mins long and 2 or 3 laps.  We are not interested just now in travelling to other events but if the beer is right we may be persuaded..

Is the 2000 right or are we too heavy for the boat?

Any boats with trapeeses are out SmileSmile

Regards
Graham



Replies:
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 3:56pm
RS400 seems like the obvious alternative if you want something a little more sprightly and better for weight carrying, but if you guys are happy and enjoy the 2000, then frankly a little extra pie won't make that much difference.


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 4:43pm
I'd say 30-odd stone in a 2000 is way over the top, especially given their propensity for dragging the transom even with 20-odd stone crews unless they sit uncomfortably far forward.  The sail area is small, so that the extra righting moment offered by your weight will be largely unused.

How about a nice Hartley Wayfarer - Wayfarers seem to carry weight very well, judging by the Nats winners over the years.  If you want trapezes, asymmetrics etc, then the Alto is currently serving the 'larger gentlemen' down our way very well.


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Posted By: Happilyover40
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 4:56pm
RS 400 looks good

Wayfarer too heavy to drag around

Ref 2000 that might explain why the water keeps in coming in the transom SmileSmile

Graham


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 5:09pm
Osprey

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Posted By: Chris415700
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 5:32pm
Flying Fifteen carries weight well. Competitive 25 year old boats can be picked up for around 2500 and there is a good circuit in Scotland if you do decide to travel.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 8:01pm
If you like the 2000 style, but find it too small, then a Stratos would be possible, but maybe too heavy. Trouble is, big means heavy unless hitech and expensive. 400 would be good, I'd say, too.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 11:44pm
Yes too heavy for a 2000 to compete on the circuit.  To have fun club racing - it can work.  You will have a problem with water in through the self drainers unless you sit right forward.  But it's not uncomfortable to do so....get a longer tiller extension.  Also replace the flimsy flaps on the bailers with perspex.  makes a big difference.

400 will bear weight better - but it's also much more challenging to sail as opposed to race.


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 12:00am
Originally posted by sargesail

 You will have a problem with water in through the self drainers unless you sit right forward.  But it's not uncomfortable to do so....get a longer tiller extension. 
Maybe I should have said inconvenient rather than uncomfortable.  Moving forward of the mainsheet bridle then aft again every tack is a distraction I could do without as a helmsman (an aft bridle would be a huge improvement), and I can't imagine too many occasions when the thwart would be the right place for the crew to sit (although they all do at our club, dragging the transom accordingly).


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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 7:10am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by sargesail

 You will have a problem with water in through the self drainers unless you sit right forward.  But it's not uncomfortable to do so....get a longer tiller extension. 
Maybe I should have said inconvenient rather than uncomfortable.  Moving forward of the mainsheet bridle then aft again every tack is a distraction I could do without as a helmsman (an aft bridle would be a huge improvement), and I can't imagine too many occasions when the thwart would be the right place for the crew to sit (although they all do at our club, dragging the transom accordingly).

Thwarts are for bracing boats laterally and mounting controls not for sitting on!  I can't think of any boat where sitting on the thwart is actually a viable option if you want to go fast.  And same deal with working round a mainsheet (and thwart) every tack in conditions where both helm and crew are not sitting out.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 11:08am
Another vote for the Atlo, it'll be exciting , with lots of potential to learn more stuff, self tacking jib makes it eaier for the crew and he can focus on learning to get his great bulk out on that wire whilst you while away the time with a nice coffee and the sunday times as you leisurely scream around the course.

Dinghy racing Grand Touring style..

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 11:21am
Originally posted by iGRF

Another vote for the Atlo, it'll be exciting , with lots of potential to learn more stuff, self tacking jib makes it eaier for the crew and he can focus on learning to get his great bulk out on that wire whilst you while away the time with a nice coffee and the sunday times as you leisurely scream around the course.

Dinghy racing Grand Touring style..

but it'll depreciate like a stone as there's no pockets of activity outside of one club in Kent.  Far better to protect oneself with an established class- of which there are plenty to choose from.... Wayfarer, RS400, L2k, 505, flying 15, Bosun ... but I think one requirement was no trapeze, which rules out the Alto along with the 505.  


Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 12:07pm
Don't listen to old guard disillusioned dinghyists stuck in their fifties time warp, 'oh don't buy that it needs a class to be fun' check all the copy about class racing dying, buy something you will enjoy and trust me a Wayfarer is a ticket to the planet Boredom.

RS 400 is not a bad boat, but it's a 'sitonthesideandyawn' hiker which you need to be a bit fit to deal with the pain that hiking inevitably induces particularly if you're doing it 'right'.

So, if you can find one, the Alto, which is a modern boat, hardly any of these monkeys have even set eyes on never mind sailed, it would enhance your enjoyment over that laser 2000 slugboat by a factor of 10, it'll also put you a lot nearer the front of the fleet, they'll hammer you on handicap, but who cares?Everyone watching will have seen you finishing ahead of the pack and that is all that counts at the end of the day let them go into a huddle and work out which one of them won as they're packing their boat up still and you're on your second pint. Wink


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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 12:22pm
erm, which bit of no trapeze didn't you get Woodburner?   

 If you can't get the basics right, why should anyone listen to your wisdom of the more complex issues like successful classes, resale values and decent class racing (or at least a chance someone else might have the same type of boat to have a tussle against and compare your progress).

There's a reason the RS400 is so popular and there's a damn good reason why something like the Alto is a complete dead-duck.  An older Merlin Rocket is the other option, but the 400 is arguably more transferable from the L2000 as it's also an asymmetric spinnaker.  




Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

trust me a Wayfarer is a ticket to the planet Boredom.
Agreed, the Wayfarer is not the most thrilling boat to sail, but it is nice (and in practice as fast as your Solution).  Actually, have you ever sailed a modern, i.e. Hartley Wayfarer, or are you just speaking from prejudice as usual?


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Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 2:08pm
Not sailed a 'modern' (is that an oxymoron) one but frequently help to launch and recover our resident eccentric often Norfolk bound Wayfarer pilot.

As to the OP, they need to consider trapezing, all this sitting on the side is damaging to your health


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Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by Woodburner

trust me a Wayfarer is a ticket to the planet Boredom.
Agreed, the Wayfarer is not the most thrilling boat to sail, but it is nice (and in practice as fast as your Solution).  
With a handicap of 1112? And they're calling me a Bandit with 1090 and they're both the same speed you say? Have you got Solutions over there then? I'm having very mixed results with mine, can't say the 1090 is especially favorable, I took another hammering in it last night thanks to sailing into a black hole, there's no coming back if you do drop behind, you can hold average Lasers off in it, but I've yet to beat the really good guy, then again he only shows up when the winds really cooking.


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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

 but I've yet to beat the really good guy

funny that LOL


Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

Originally posted by Woodburner

 but I've yet to beat the really good guy

funny that LOL

The difference is, I'm not going to give up until I have, before I decide I'm one of lifes forever losers and buy a Starboard...Wink


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Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 2:34pm
Osprey


Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 7:19pm
Albacore?


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by Woodburner

trust me a Wayfarer is a ticket to the planet Boredom.
Agreed, the Wayfarer is not the most thrilling boat to sail, but it is nice (and in practice as fast as your Solution).  
With a handicap of 1112?

No Solutions up here, but we have a lot of experience of many other classes racing against Wayfarers, and i'd say 1080 would be a fair PY for the latest versions, so yes, 1112 is pretty favourable, especially in non-trapezing weather or else a total blow.  But equally we have moss-laden old hulks of Wayfarers that take up to four minutes to cross the start line, and they do wonders for the PY returns!


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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 31 Jul 15 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by NickM

Albacore?


Just sailed my Albacore in the Wednesday series with just under 200kgs on board. Upwind we were on the pace, but a bit slow off the wind. The net result was respectable, so can recommend it as well.




Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 01 Aug 15 at 6:58am
Sailed our Albacore in the Tuesday series planing in a strong gusty wind and came off the water with happy grins. Fastest boat on the lake, doing 4 minute laps when norm is about 9 minutes! Race Officer ran out of lap columns on the recording sheet


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 01 Aug 15 at 7:51am
4 minute laps?!

Wayfarer is a PY bandit of the highest order in many conditions, but such talk is frowned upon by the thought police on here.

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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Aug 15 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Peaky

Wayfarer is a PY bandit of the highest order in many conditions, but such talk is frowned upon by the thought police on here.

Maybe because once the wind is such that trapeze boats get going on the wire/planing, even the fastest the Wayfarer becomes mere fodder until survival conditions are reached. It's just a question of averages, and at present a modern Wayfarer can win a tad too often or by too much in the lighter stuff. But every dog has its day, unless it's a high-wind hiking boat like an L2k or Tasar, in which case it's stuffed by the Wayfarer in F.2-3 and by trapeze boats thereabove.

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Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 11:06pm
It's hard not to be partisan when talking about boats. I think you are very heavy for a 2000 but if that's what they sail at the club, stick with it, especially if you're happy not to be at the front of the fleet. 

If you want something that carries more weight then look around  the club and see what others do, that should be your priority. Hopefully they will have either a few Wayfarers, or Kestrels or Albacores. Wayfarers can be had with an asymmetric (not sure what that does to the handicap), Kestrels use a conventional spinnaker and Albacores don't use a spinnaker. Whatever you get it needs to be longer than 14 foot.

I must warn you that a RS400 is a very athletic boat - I'd rather have a trapeze boat,if I were going for that sort of performance.


Posted By: Dark Harris
Date Posted: 12 Aug 15 at 2:45pm
Don't be afraid to take a look at a Hartleys Kestrel they take weight and are really well sorted and are great fun to sail and loads lighter than a Wayfarer, with plenty for both of you to do. Not much point getting a boat with no kite as that is what is making the 2000 interesting 'cause it certainly aint the speed with nearly 200kg in it. 

Dark


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Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 12 Aug 15 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Dark Harris

Don't be afraid to take a look at a Hartleys Kestrel they take weight and are really well sorted and are great fun to sail and loads lighter than a Wayfarer, with plenty for both of you to do. Not much point getting a boat with no kite as that is what is making the 2000 interesting 'cause it certainly aint the speed with nearly 200kg in it. 

Dark


the Kestrel is a cracking boat, much underestimated


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Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Peaky

4 minute laps?!

Wayfarer is a PY bandit of the highest order in many conditions, but such talk is frowned upon by the thought police on here.
 
What Pat doesnt tell you is its a tree lined pudle with only about twenty acres of sailable water


Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by patj

Sailed our Albacore in the Tuesday series planing in a strong gusty wind and came off the water with happy grins. Fastest boat on the lake, doing 4 minute laps when norm is about 9 minutes! Race Officer ran out of lap columns on the recording sheet

We have a well sailed Albacore at our club. Brilliant on a small lake and sails 3 up when really windy.



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