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Moth ... no longer 11ft ...

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12041
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 1:32pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Moth ... no longer 11ft ...
Posted By: 2547
Subject: Moth ... no longer 11ft ...
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 11:04am
With all that gubbins off the bow and stern the Moth is no long really an 11ft dinghy ...





Replies:
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 11:10am
Soon be needing a pilots licence as well!

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Merlin Rocket 3609


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 11:39am
to be honest in most conditions that Moths sailors want to sail in its barely a dinghy in the traditional sense of the word either

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 11:46am
Perhaps they should migrate to land ... replace foils with wheels ... then you have the same thing ... 


Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 12:42pm
But which boats have the same LOA as there LWL? Plenty of classes have spinnaker poles which extent LOA even when retracted, nearly everyones rudders hang off the back

Would you prefer we rule restrict classes like the old merlins flying kites inside the fore triangle, with cassette rudders like the ICs? Wink





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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 2:31pm
The 11ft Moth seems to have about 2ft off the back and the bottom of the wand seems to be about level with the bow so overal that make it about 13ft long.

There are loads of popular dinghys in the 13ft -14ft size is this a naturally sweet length for dinghys?

Also when you look at Moths crashing at speed in rough conditions I some times wonder if having the rear gantry adjustable would help. Adjust it out to make the boat 16ft in rough conditions. Would this make it ride more smoothly?

Works for cars....Roller more comfortable than a real Mini.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 2:37pm
I asked about this at one time, and no rule changes were needed for the gantry or bowsprit. Apparently, there is no rule on the size of pintle's and gudgeons, and in a single sailed boat, I don't think it ever came to mind to ban bowsprits.

In a sense I still agree with the OP. It does seem to push the spirit of the rule, but if the actual sailors are happy, what has it to do with me, really. The 14 adding the snout support is similar, and to me, worse shifting of the length rules.

As for overall and waterline length, the Moth has always been an overall hull length. The lwl for a scow Moth is a fair amount less than 11 feet.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 5:39pm
Cherubs have gone the same along with most of the skiff classes.


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 10 Jun 15 at 6:16pm
I think there is a rule of 30cm for a forward appendage on a Moth. Loads of them have bow sprits to take the wand these days, it's not that new an idea....


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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 14 Jun 15 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Rupert

I asked about this at one time, and no rule changes were needed for the gantry or bowsprit. Apparently, there is no rule on the size of pintle's and gudgeons, and in a single sailed boat, I don't think it ever came to mind to ban bowsprits.

In a sense I still agree with the OP. It does seem to push the spirit of the rule, but if the actual sailors are happy, what has it to do with me, really. The 14 adding the snout support is similar, and to me, worse shifting of the length rules.

As for overall and waterline length, the Moth has always been an overall hull length. The lwl for a scow Moth is a fair amount less than 11 feet.

Where is the waterline on a foiler??


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jun 15 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by JohnJack


Originally posted by Rupert

I asked about this at one time, and no rule changes were needed for the gantry or bowsprit. Apparently, there is no rule on the size of pintle's and gudgeons, and in a single sailed boat, I don't think it ever came to mind to ban bowsprits.

In a sense I still agree with the OP. It does seem to push the spirit of the rule, but if the actual sailors are happy, what has it to do with me, really. The 14 adding the snout support is similar, and to me, worse shifting of the length rules.

As for overall and waterline length, the Moth has always been an overall hull length. The lwl for a scow Moth is a fair amount less than 11 feet.

Where is the waterline on a foiler??


Either 11 feet or about 6 inches?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: 17mika
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by 2547

With all that gubbins off the bow and stern the Moth is no long really an 11ft dinghy ...


Well bowsprits and gantrys have to be removable and do not increase buoyancy, so it's definetly hard to consider them as part of the hull lenght.




Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by 17mika

Originally posted by 2547

With all that gubbins off the bow and stern the Moth is no long really an 11ft dinghy ...


Well bowsprits and gantrys have to be removable and do not increase buoyancy, so it's definetly hard to consider them as part of the hull lenght.




You wouldn't be able to sail them very well without the bow sprite and gantry though ... so how is that relevant?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 5:10pm
You couldn't sail them without mast, sails or foils, either, but I know what you mean, part of a length rule is to test a designer's skills at creating something which works at the given length. Adding sticks at each end means you aren't doing that.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 5:25pm
All box rules are arbitary restrictions though. The Moth rules are framed so that the sticks at each end can't contribute to the hydrodynamics of the hull, which is a pretty reasonable measure of given length. Not that different to say spars overhanging the ends. Funny how the boom overhanging the stern* is something no-one seems bothered about, but the bowsprit overhanging the bow is a bit more serious..

[added later] * speaking generally that is. not specifically about Moths.


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 5:33pm
I think it is all starting to look a bit of a contrivance ...

Although it certainly goes fast and the class is popular so I guess it is all gravy ...


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 7:08pm
What does it matter, none of its in the water.

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 7:10pm
The only reason I can see for allowing the boom to overhang the transom is to allow it rest on it when the cover is on. Not something that has been an issue for Moths for several decades.

As I've said, I'm torn on all this. With my theory hat on, I think sticking to the 11 feet and having to work round that is very neat. But in reality, the way the Moths actually do it leads to better boats, still closely matched as all are using the same rule set, whatever it is.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 17 Jun 15 at 8:06pm
The moth rules started pretty simple - 11ft long, 88 sq ft sail, 17 ft luff, and all the
new rules ( with the exception of allowing wands ) are restrictions and not changes to the original ruleset. - ie limited max beam, no windsurfers, no catamarans, limited length for gantries and bowsprits, etc, etc.
A true development class - with no rule changes as such in the 30 or 40 years since the class was formed from the various moths around the world ( apart from the wands as mentioned) the PY has halved - from the same as a Solo to 550 ( or even lower at Hayling ).


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foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling



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