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Spotting Windshifts.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11878
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 11:06am
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Topic: Spotting Windshifts.
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Spotting Windshifts.
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 9:34am
So, I don't need to know how, I'm OK with it, but I'd like to know how you tell others how to do it.

I was showing a new guy what they were on the water on sunday, pointing out how the wind fans out and that you can have two boats both on a lift sailing in opposite directions in some conditions when the wind is coming down from above more like we get in the cold Northerlies we had on sunday.

The conversation then got round to light conditions where they can be more devastating if you get them wrong and I pointed out you can't rely on the wind indicators and burgee things that are fitted to the actual boat, then I wondered how is it they actually teach you then.

We windsurfers obviously use our ears or feel the shifting pressure in the sail, that combined obviously with the changing angles of the fleet in their attitude to our position. After quite a long while I can kind of sense them a bit through my backside in a boat by not holding the tiller too tight, rocking the boat to leeward when hunting lifts and to weather when faced with a header but it's taken me these almost ten bloody years and it's still not totally reliable.

But the tricky thing is what I call false headers, which aren't headers, they can even be lifts which come about when the pressure of the true wind drops and the momentum continues so your wind indicator thingy points nose first and gives you the impression you're head to wind when you really aren't.

I've not seen all this described anywhere, it wasn't in Start to Win, so my question is what book is the best reference for all this, so I can recommend it. We have a few grown up late starters and it's going to take them ages to come from trailing round at the back of the fleet unless they get some help understanding wind shift tactics, which is the best book and or how were you taught?

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Replies:
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 9:39am
http://fernhurstbooks.com/product/wind-strategy/" rel="nofollow - http://fernhurstbooks.com/product/wind-strategy/


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 9:41am
Thanks TT, is it any good have you read it?

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 9:47am
I've not read it, but I would be very surprised if it's not an exceptional bit of material, well written and edited.

Those Fernhurst books have had a recent major reboot, and the guy behind it is a very, very competent sailor and very well respected.  


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 9:56am
I wrote something for Fernhurst books once, eons ago, Tim somebody, maybe even Fernhurst, was that his name? Damned if I can remember, I note they have a tactics book as well, not brilliant, all Timmy Tacker, Harriet Header & Sally Shifter patronising drivel but it's got the basics. I shall point him there...

I bet there's no mention of the nitty gritty of it all though knowing which ones to go with and which to ignore..

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 9:59am
Tim Davison - really nice guy, sails a Solo at Draycote along with the other gentleman who is taking Fernhurst forward.  

Both really great guys- and know their onions.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 10:05am
Tim Davidson that's probably the guy, it was 35 years ago now, can't remember exactly what it was, might have been a translation I did from Yank to English.

They were doing dinghy stuff back then so they must be like me, forgotten more than most folk know these days..

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Posted By: ds2
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 11:42am
Tim's a great guy and wonderful company. He was third in British Moths nationals last year, still competitive over all wind conditions and hikes like a demon.
He only got beaten by Toby Cooper(a class legend) and Robbie Claridge who's over fifty years younger than him.


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 11:43am
I refer to it as Velocity Sheer - covered on page 99 of Club Sailor along with other weird wind effects like downdrafts and updrafts. Downdrafts also http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/sailing-faster/how-to-sail-at-frensham/" rel="nofollow - here

10 ways to spot a wind shift - p54

Tim Davison is a lovely chap - had some good times at Laser Masters events


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by fab100

I refer to it as Velocity Sheer - covered on page 99 of Club Sailor along with other weird wind effects like downdrafts and updrafts. Downdrafts also http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/sailing-faster/how-to-sail-at-frensham/" rel="nofollow - here
10 ways to spot a wind shift - p54
Tim Davison is a lovely chap - had some good times at Laser Masters events


Thanks for that - perfect, just what he needs, I'd quite forgotten your book is that bit in it?

Velocity Sheer? Yep that's a good complicated way of describing it like a true dinghy sailor..

By the time I was explaining why their silly wind direction pointy things were wrong, there were two of them and I could see they didn't get it even when I did all the hand gestures, I shall now tell them it's velocity sheer and it's in your book. I should read what you wrote first I guess just to check you get it as well..

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Posted By: Jeremy Atkins
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 5:01pm
I've never been described as a "very, very competent sailor and really well respected" before (or maybe they were referring to the retired Tim Davison!). But thank you, if you meant me!
 
But on this basis of these posts, perhaps our next book should be on onions (since we know quite a bit about them apparently!).
 
However, more seriously, without wishing to be commercial, Nick Craig's new book talks quite a bit about spotting windshifts and not using a burgee - launched at the Dinghy Show.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 5:04pm
I did Jeremy, and you are.

James 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 6:32pm
Hmm Interesting Nick Craig now spotting that burgees are next to useless, I've never had one, I think anything you have to look at in the boat is counter productive, although it was quite interesting having someone classically trained calling the jib tel tales in the Alto, that is a bitch to buttsense shifts with, nothing like as sensitive as the EPS, in fact the only other boat I've sailed that comes close is the D Zero, that is a Shift Hunting Weapon.

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Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 11:17am
Maybe burgees are like nappies? When you start out, you need them, and can't cope without them.

But as you mature, you find you are better off without them...

(I still use a burgee and would make a right mess without one!)


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 12:03pm
On a single sailed boat I like a little hawk to give me clues going down wind, especially when I've got myself in some sort of pickle, but I use the main tell tales far more. In a 2 sailed boat, the telltales on the jib are the vital thing to have.

Look forward to picking up a copy of Nick Craig's book at the show.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 12:09pm
I hope he writes better than he speaks, my chum fell asleep and crashed off his chair much to everyone's amusement during one of his 'chats' to the lead miners.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I hope he writes better than he speaks, my chum fell asleep and crashed off his chair much to everyone's amusement during one of his 'chats' to the lead miners.


You chum been at the bar for a while before the talk began?


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 1:26pm
I had a leg-pull of Nick when I heard he was going in to competition with me on the authoring front - his reply was "very different audience"

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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 1:36pm
Both aiming at sailors, surely, and ones who are wanting to improve, whether the improvement is from back of fleet to middle, or middle to nearer the front. Big overlap, I'd say. Any book that can get you looking at things in a slightly different way is good, whatever the "level" it is aimed at.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 1:39pm
Years of pond sailing mean that I usually spot shifts with the tell tales, that or the sail backing and the boat falling on top of me... (you get right good at snap tacking, I'll tell you...). I tend to use the burgee as a 'macro' sort of thing rather than for wind shift spottage. Especially in a drifter when no one else has noticed that what started as a beat is now a run LOL
(Actually I wish I was joking about that...)
Of course if you are really bored a hawk set just above boom level allows for games by the lee spent trying to make the hawk go round and round and round in circles...


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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Both aiming at sailors, surely, and ones who are wanting to improve, whether the improvement is from back of fleet to middle, or middle to nearer the front. Big overlap, I'd say. Any book that can get you looking at things in a slightly different way is good, whatever the "level" it is aimed at.

Agreed. I'm looking forward to it.

I stopped reading other peoples' sailing books for a fair while, not wanting to even sub-consciously plagiarise anyone, but too busy on other things to contemplate a second edition or follow up effort, so the block is now removed.


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 2:56pm
One of the things that budding authors are advised to do is read, read, read. 

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So, I don't need to know how, I'm OK with it, but I'd like to know how you tell others how to do it.

Something like this

[TUBE]X69NCLxwLEY[/TUBE]


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 7:33pm
Spot On Matt, it's why we windsurfers use the force, not burgees..

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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 08 Feb 15 at 9:44pm
Early in my time with my now wife and crew I sat her down on a Cornish headland in gusty shifty conditions and we watched what happened on the water and how it affected the breeze we felt.  We had something to help us see the wind direction, as well as feeling it.  A scarf I think, it being February.  It was time well spent and she was able to learn to spot gusts and, with slightly less certainty, shifts.

Separating the apparent wind header / pressure lift, from the gradient header/lift, is altogether more difficult, and takes experience.

But you can gain so much from it.  I recall a race in very heavy 55 foot yachts in which the boat to weather and abeam gradually ended up to leeward and behind, in on-off breeze conditions at night.  Why?  Because she bore away whenever the breeze shut off and she was headed, while we just eased the genoa to stop it backing too much and left the helm middled.  Once our speed dropped to the right one for our close-hauled course in he new breeze then we found that we were miraculously back on course.  It was an extreme but clear example.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Feb 15 at 10:20pm
Totally failed to pick up on a virtually no wind shift today and lost a good 100 yards on the boats in front, which sadly included rupertson, who did the 100 yards while I did 10. Last I saw of him...

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Woodbotherer
Date Posted: 09 Feb 15 at 9:20am
It was borderline breezy yesterday so I ended up using the small sail, it's another ghastly full batten thing, set half up half down the mast, doesn't transition and fill at all, terrible no feel to it, I'd started off well enough with a port end half assed flyer so I was in the mix at the front for quite a while, but it's lack of sensitivity and terrible re attachment after the tack meant I got a couple really wrong and slipped back down the pack.

Then the knot on the mainsheet had come undone and one sudden gusty lift at the gybe saw the boom gybe almost windsurf style right round the front and I very nearly swam. I probably ended up last on corrected.

Full battens make spotting shifts ten times more difficult for me.


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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Feb 15 at 10:11am
I was out staurday doing a few laps on my own around some cans.... that D-Zero just hunts out lifts upwind, my light wind tacking technique was also improving, keeping weight right up by the kicker and tacking facing backwards.  

I was also directly sheeting off the boom (didn't need the ratchet in that breeze), this helped keep the tiller and ropes de-cluttered and will be moving to off the boom sheeting permanently when my own boat shows up... probably using one of those little auto ratchets I had on my MPS kite sheets, and a longer tiller extension.  


Posted By: Woodbotherer
Date Posted: 09 Feb 15 at 10:24am
Quite how you've managed to blag one of those fine craft, is beyond me, shouldn't you now be doing your bit to improve the handicap by entering some events and starting in the third rank in light conditions?Wink

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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 09 Feb 15 at 11:35am
Originally posted by turnturtle

I was out staurday doing a few laps on my own around some cans.... that D-Zero just hunts out lifts upwind, my light wind tacking technique was also improving, keeping weight right up by the kicker and tacking facing backwards.  

I was also directly sheeting off the boom (didn't need the ratchet in that breeze), this helped keep the tiller and ropes de-cluttered and will be moving to off the boom sheeting permanently when my own boat shows up... probably using one of those little auto ratchets I had on my MPS kite sheets, and a longer tiller extension.  

Come on James, you don't need a ratchet at all - it just slows down the gust response.


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Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Feb 15 at 11:56am
Haha - very true, but comfort comes first!


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Feb 15 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

I was out staurday doing a few laps on my own around some cans.... that D-Zero just hunts out lifts upwind, my light wind tacking technique was also improving, keeping weight right up by the kicker and tacking facing backwards.  

I was also directly sheeting off the boom (didn't need the ratchet in that breeze), this helped keep the tiller and ropes de-cluttered and will be moving to off the boom sheeting permanently when my own boat shows up... probably using one of those little auto ratchets I had on my MPS kite sheets, and a longer tiller extension.  

1.2m carbon is what you need James. The 1m Battlestick just doesn't cut the mustard.


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Feb 15 at 2:15pm
it's got a 1200mm carbon one on the boat I'm sailing, it's very nice in the normal helming position... but I'll be going longer with off the boom sheeting for light winds.


Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 18 Feb 15 at 10:29pm
Try this

http://www.sailracer.net/windgame/


Posted By: Woodbotherer
Date Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 9:14am
Win by 69mtrs is that enough?Wink

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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 11:55am
135m on my first go... so no, not really that great... 


Posted By: Woodbotherer
Date Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 12:26pm
Well I'm sad to say it's 233mtrs now and I've got to stop wasting time on it.

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Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 1:11am
546m win


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 9:15am
It's quite an easy game because you know exactly when the other boat will tack for most of the beat. When the wind line crosses the mean wind line the boat tacks. Then at the top of the beat it stops following shifts and avoids hitting a layline which means you can get one shift ahead and pinch it at the top.



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