Print Page | Close Window

Laser 5000, where are they?!

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11639
Printed Date: 30 Sep 20 at 4:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Laser 5000, where are they?!
Posted By: laserboy404
Subject: Laser 5000, where are they?!
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 9:11am
I fancy something twin wire and big kite and generally a bit daft for blasting and maybe racing occasionally if ever upright for long enough and keep reading about 5000's being dirt cheap to pick up (as a dead class).

So where are they? Can't find one for sale anywhere, cheap or otherwise... Presumably the association is now completely defunct as their website (laser5000.org) seems dead... Has the time when they were a bargain passed?!

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53



Replies:
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 9:48am
You may find you need to buy three and put the parts together yourself.... FWIW, a 49er can be picked up pretty cheaply and there's a constant supply of reasonable second hand kit filtering down the squad channel to keep them sailing in 'club condition'.

-------------


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 11:00am
I've heard the Navy bought a few to dangle out of those holes on the front of our new aircraft carrier....



-------------
Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 11:14am
They'd be too heavy for that.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 11:22am
they are hiding in an old boat shed, somewhere in the east midlands?


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 2:01pm
Point me in the direction of this shed!

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 2:19pm
Just look on Google Earth at the point where light itself is being sucked into the gravitational vortex, and there's your answer. 

-------------
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 2:44pm
LOL

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 3:16pm
You could try Richard at  http://www.ppsa.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ppsa.co.uk/ . He probably owns most of them or knows where the ones he hasn't bought yet are.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 4:17pm
you'd probably do better with this:

http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=375568

and you'd probably be able to sell it again afterwards.

-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 6:04pm
That 14 looks a good buy, but I imagine the (massive) weight of the 5k probably makes it a slightly more stable platform?

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by laserboy404

That 14 looks a good buy, but I imagine the (massive) weight of the 5k probably makes it a slightly more boring platform?

FTFY


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 8:51pm
Richard Owens is the man.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 9:00pm
5K was of it's time (I think the 4K was also plenty heavy enough for what it was) but not such a bad old tool depending on who you were and what you wanted from it. I knew of one that was Club sailed at a North Sea club for several years to quite good effect, sure it was bit of a brute but the two blokes who had it were fairly beefy types. I even crewed it a couple of times, once in proper wind and sea and it was fine even when the main sheet bridle parted putting us in to windward. Got it upright and I yachted it about free n fast while the helm/owner sorted a jury rig to carry on blasting about. Biggest weight was in the rig, the technique was definitely to sail the boat under the rig, once it got a lean on .................... )-;

Boss was much lighter I understand? Fragile? Any still about?


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 9:11pm
I can imagine that it would probably be far from boring... Especially given my level of skiff sailing experience (square root of FA). Somehow the weighty brutishness appeals, compared to some skiffs which look pretty flimsy!



-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 9:23pm
A couple of mates of mine had a Boss until not so long ago, and swore that it was absolutely brilliant. I never had a go myself, but they're both excellent sailors and instructors whose opinion I value. Think I saw one on the Duck the other day...

-------------


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 10:03pm
I got to say I enjoy my time in a boss, sure there are and were faster boats, but with the larger rules kite there weren't many.  Still bloody big heft boats, but less so then the 5k


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 10:15pm
Looks like the boss may be another option then, quick search of the duck doesn't reveal too many of them for sale either!

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: DaveT
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 10:19pm
get an older 49er, so much nicer. the 5k is very very dated.


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 10:23pm
I'm sure it will seem pretty new fangled compared to the 44 year old Javelin which is my current whip...

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 11:38pm
I used to have good racing in my 49er against a well sailed Boss that had the larger spinnaker. I remember a lengthy downwind leg (several miles) where there was very little in it.

The Boss was a big boat and the kite sheets in particular were very heavy, and the carbon wings that slid in tubes which chewed off all the pro grip were a pain.

I'd go with what others have said and go for a cheap 49er with the old rev 9 rig, it's a much more refined boat and you can still buy spares!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 12:25am
I reckon the Javelin's a classier boat for whatever my opinion is worth.


Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 6:52am
40 Javs at recent Europeans in Germany, my mates were 11th. They are classy old trucks. I used to own 345....I think. It was called Pheasant Plucker and this was written in huge letters down the side. I took it off. A very dated rather "Carry On" joke!


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 8:26am
Don't get me wrong, the Javelin is going nowhere, she always has been my favourite boat out of all that I've sailed and I'm sure that's not gonna change. Just fancied taking a look at some skiff type hooliganism!

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 9:01am
Originally posted by laserboy404

Don't get me wrong, the Javelin is going nowhere, she always has been my favourite boat out of all that I've sailed and I'm sure that's not gonna change. Just fancied taking a look at some skiff type bimbling, fudging and scouring the internet for non-existent replacement parts!

FTFY


-------------


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 10:29am
Get a B14...

-------------
-_
Al


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 10:57am
Okay so talk to me about older 49ers... I had discounted assuming that any that were affordable would basically be thrashed to death...

What rig and age (sail numbers) are worth looking at? Presumably the really old ones will be worn out?


-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:02am
Also having had a flick through apollo duck, the B14 pricing looks somewhat more realistic that any niners that are on there currently... Unfortunately I already have a laser for when i want to punish myself hiking...

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:06am
Clearly a case for the creation of a Frankenboat.

-------------
the same, but different...



Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:13am
Originally posted by laserboy404

That 14 looks a good buy, but I imagine the (massive) weight of the 5k probably makes it a slightly more stable platform?



Err... hang on, if stability is required a 49er IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT! So I'd park that idea.

int 14 penultimate
RS800
BOSS
SPICE
or
Take the wings off an ISO and stick another wire on it.



-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:20am
It's not a requirement as such, i'm sure i could get to grips with a 49er, i was just looking at more "sensible" alternatives first.

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:23am
Originally posted by winging it

Clearly a case for the creation of a Frankenboat.

Lose the racks and twin wire a B14 then, if it's a budget boat I think the old alloy racks are prone to fatigue failure anyway. No extra strain on the mast as all that leverage from the racks would be going up to the hounds via the shrouds in any case.

Proper easy DIY conversion, what say about 20 metres of twelve strand dyneema and jobs a good un.



  


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:45am
When the B14 first came out (well, once it returned as the B14, post Exocet days) wasn't there a trapeze option, which never caught on?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Rod Porteous
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:57am
What about a 59er with Trapeze as per Aussies


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 11:58am
As I recall they sailed as single string boats with narrower racks for some years as B14E.

There's a bit more to two stringing a boat than just taking the racks off and bunging two wires on: the support for the mast is entirely different if the righting moment is transferred direct to the mast rather than going up through the shrouds and spreaders, and suddenly your mast has lost a lot of control. If you go to mega rig tensions to get the spreaders working again you'll be stressing the hull way beyond design loads. The extra compression loads on the mast might well have a considerable effect on mast bend too.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 12:08pm
Point taken on twin stringing JimC.
I was thinking more in terms of a cheap hoon about rat boat.
However, unforeseen consequences and all that.Thumbs Up 


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by JimC

As I recall they sailed as single string boats with narrower racks for some years as B14E.

There's a bit more to two stringing a boat than just taking the racks off and bunging two wires on: the support for the mast is entirely different if the righting moment is transferred direct to the mast rather than going up through the shrouds and spreaders, and suddenly your mast has lost a lot of control. If you go to mega rig tensions to get the spreaders working again you'll be stressing the hull way beyond design loads. The extra compression loads on the mast might well have a considerable effect on mast bend too.


you think there's much difference between an ISO and SPICE then Jim.


-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by laserboy404

Okay so talk to me about older 49ers... I had discounted assuming that any that were affordable would basically be thrashed to death...

What rig and age (sail numbers) are worth looking at? Presumably the really old ones will be worn out?

Right then. Here's mine. I paid 1400 for it, sailed it around for a year as is, although in this pic the sails were added later at a cost of 600, which was for a pretty much perfect main, 3 jibs, and what started out as a very good kite. It's had a few other bits since but is a simply superb boats. 

Of all the boats I've owned this has had by far the least amount of time spending on it. The hulls do seem pretty strong (the hull is actually GBR340 so pretty old now). OK so it won't win an open (neither will I) but for blasting and not too serious racing you simply cannot beat a cheap old niner. 

Carbon sticks are pretty much essential, the bendy ally ones are crap. The systems and fit out are very simple. You do need good mainsheet/jib sheet combined system. Old rig bits are very easy to get and cheap...I did break a boom, a second hand one was about 50, and I split the glass top mast. A replacement was a freebie out of the weeds, and a day assembling the new mast. However kites don't last long, combination of a triple patch and the chute mouth behind the forestay on a club course does eat them. 

Weak spots are where the older style wings join the hull, wings that have been sanded to within an inch of their lives by squaddies to reduce weight, and where the shrouds join the hull (very accessible and easily beefed up). Two days before this pic was taken we were out in 28 knots and she held together, despite going upwind with everything ragging, the mast bending, and a couple of massive crashes downwind. 

However do be aware they are a big, powerful fairly unforgiving boat, that is very hard work as a crew. They are more than attainable if you start on lighter days (you will be twinning in sub 10 knots...the pic is Torquay, on the same day the Cherubs at Babbacombe were canned due to lack of wind), but there is a lot of power there so do keep the boat under the rig at all times. But in terms of smiles per pound they are unbeatable, the niner and an 18' skiff are truly the only boats I have sailed where going upwind is genuinely just as much fun as going downwind. 



-------------
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 1:09pm
How much is a bottom end RS800 now to buy, too?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Iain C

Originally posted by laserboy404

Okay so talk to me about older 49ers... I had discounted assuming that any that were affordable would basically be thrashed to death...

What rig and age (sail numbers) are worth looking at? Presumably the really old ones will be worn out?

Right then. Here's mine. I paid 1400 for it, sailed it around for a year as is, although in this pic the sails were added later at a cost of 600, which was for a pretty much perfect main, 3 jibs, and what started out as a very good kite. It's had a few other bits since but is a simply superb boats. 

Of all the boats I've owned this has had by far the least amount of time spending on it. The hulls do seem pretty strong (the hull is actually GBR340 so pretty old now). OK so it won't win an open (neither will I) but for blasting and not too serious racing you simply cannot beat a cheap old niner. 

Carbon sticks are pretty much essential, the bendy ally ones are crap. The systems and fit out are very simple. You do need good mainsheet/jib sheet combined system. Old rig bits are very easy to get and cheap...I did break a boom, a second hand one was about 50, and I split the glass top mast. A replacement was a freebie out of the weeds, and a day assembling the new mast. However kites don't last long, combination of a triple patch and the chute mouth behind the forestay on a club course does eat them. 

Weak spots are where the older style wings join the hull, wings that have been sanded to within an inch of their lives by squaddies to reduce weight, and where the shrouds join the hull (very accessible and easily beefed up). Two days before this pic was taken we were out in 28 knots and she held together, despite going upwind with everything ragging, the mast bending, and a couple of massive crashes downwind. 

However do be aware they are a big, powerful fairly unforgiving boat, that is very hard work as a crew. They are more than attainable if you start on lighter days (you will be twinning in sub 10 knots...the pic is Torquay, on the same day the Cherubs at Babbacombe were canned due to lack of wind), but there is a lot of power there so do keep the boat under the rig at all times. But in terms of smiles per pound they are unbeatable, the niner and an 18' skiff are truly the only boats I have sailed where going upwind is genuinely just as much fun as going downwind. 


great post, I don't sail somewhere big enough for a i14 (my long time fave) or a 49er, but great to hear you can have a lot of fun in them, for not a lot of dosh, if you do!


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 3:42pm
Just re-read my post. The essential carbon sticks I was referring to are tiller extensions, not masts!

-------------
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 4:26pm
Iain, thanks for that, great post, certainly throws up the 49er as a very real option, just a matter of hanging on and seeing how often they come up for sale at that sort of money!

Not particularly keen on a rat/frankenboat, as it'd be good to be class legal in some form for racing purposes!

-------------
Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 7:03pm
My old 49er was number 055 and when I got rid of it it was in great condition even though it was an older hull. It had been fully re-conditioned and brought up to new boat spec. As Iain says, they can be got for small amounts of money and the squad guys are always willing to sell sails and rigs on cheap when you need to replace bits. The rope work needed is not overly complex, the only thin I replaced was the halyard tail. Check the wing tracks are secure and you'll be fine. They got damaged by people trying to hang on to the wing as the boat inverted!


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 8:15pm
For JimC. Gone off thread but hoping you are still reading.
I could learn something here, ref stringing vs hiking.

My single wire, single spreaders two man boat. Light to low medium breeze going upwind, what is going on with the rig from us both sitting on the side me hiking vs the crew on the wire and me helming from leeward. I've heard people say the rig "works better loaded" I think it feels more powerful but it's hard to be sure.  


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 9:09pm
Look at the mast!

If you consider a fairly ordinary hiking boat with a single spreader rig then most likely its got spreaders that deflect the shrouds out two or three inches, and going upwind probably the leeward shroud goes roughly slack while the windward shroud has tension equal to double the static rig tension plus the righting moment of the crew.

So thinking about sideways bend the top mast bends off and so the middle tries to bend up to windward. At the hounds the windward spreader is trying to push the mast to leeward with the bowstring effect from all the tension in the windward shroud, and the leeward spreader is doing nothing because the shroud is slack.

The result is that the mid mast is stopped from bending to windward, which restricts the amount the topmast bends off.

OK, now consider the same boat with one person on a trapeze. The vast majority of the righting moment is now down the trapeze wire, and thus bypassinng the spreader. In the old days of soft rigs I'd even see the windward shroud slack, which I can't quite explain, but neverless it happened. The leeward shroud, on the other hand, is now moderately tight what with the static rig tension and so on.

OK, so what's happening to mast bend now. Well, that windward shroud is slack, so there's no bowstring effect on the spreader and the spreader isn't stopping the mast bending to windward. Worse than that, the leeward spreader is now doing something from the bow string effect from the admittedly much less tight lee shroud, so that's trying to bend the mid mast to windward even more.
Net result, probably the top mast is a good 6 inches further to leeward than it was with no-one on the wire, which means the leech is more open and less power.

So what do we do about it?
The first option is what Bethwaite did with the Laser 2 and Clive did with the RS600 - ditch spreaders and use diamond stays. The load on the diamond spreaders doesn't vary with the crew on or off the wire and the rig behaves consistently.

The next option is to wind on the rig tension. I think the first people to really find out about this stuff were 470 Olympic sailors, and they just wound on the rig tension so there was so much static load the spreaders worked more or less consistently because the bowstring effect didn't vary much whether or not the crew was on the wire. The big disadvantage of this was that the polyester/chopped strand may 470s of the time lasted about 3 months under this sort of load until the hull went soft.

Another option is low down bend control, mast gate or lowers. Because they really stabilise the bottom of the mast the spreaders were a bit less important in controlling mast bend, so that helped too.

Yet another contribution is the push kicker. I'm no great fan of these, because I think they push in fore and aft mast bend where you really don't want it, but what they also come with is lowers to much higher up the mast than the effect of normal lowers and mast gate, so that stabilises the mast too.

So if you can follow a single string boat up a beat and watch the mast and leech as the crew gets on and off the wire, well you'll probably see a lot of this.

Which one is best - well probably all of them together. But as much rig tension as is safe for the boat in question is rarely a bad thing. It can be very instructive though to look very closely at the boat when you put the tension on. I remember one boat where the foredeck would gain a ripple as the shrouds were wound up to what was fast because the boat had bent so much!


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 10:30pm
Ta for that JC. Something to think on. 
The effect probably not so pronounced on my foam sandwich boat with 180 odd kg on the shrouds.
I guess it explains why my old Contender "died" on me every time I went out on the wire until I fetched the book out and got serious. 


Posted By: Henry110
Date Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 10:20am
Hi i have a laser 5000 and trailer rod for sale? 
Henry


Posted By: Henry110
Date Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 10:23am
Hi i got one laser 5000 on rod trailer?
Henry



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com