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The solution to dull PY racing

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11241
Printed Date: 26 Jan 21 at 2:50am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: The solution to dull PY racing
Posted By: 2547
Subject: The solution to dull PY racing
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 12:54pm
The biggest objection I can see is you have no idea on the water how you are doing

How about an iPhone app that uses the GPS to locate and track you live then auto calculates your fleet position that it displays live on the screen.

All competitors log into the app; the positions can auto calculate where you are on the course (assuming rhumb lines, although if the app knew the wind direction then it could be smarter) and there you have it instant live feedback on your place in the race then you can see if you make a good few shifts how you have moved up ...



Replies:
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:04pm
Simple class racing is so much easier!!!

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Merlin Rocket 3609


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:10pm
Nice solution - in theory... Personally one of the benefits of being on the water is to switch off the technology.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:25pm
Nothing to stop you doing time on time calculations while sailing....I know that in the 300 if I round the WM after 20 minutes (yes - that long!) and I'm within a min of the 400s then I'm up (although they often get away on the run home....

Which is why there's a flaw in the app unless it can predict finishing times based on polars!


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Time Lord

Simple class racing is so much easier!!!

Indeed but it's hard to come by unless you are lucky. 

A live read out of position would give instant feedback. 


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:39pm
Sounds like a good idea to me.

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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:50pm
considering that most of the people sailing are apparently really old then there is very little chance they even have a Nokia 3210 let alone an iPhone.

I'd probably lose mine off the boat during a capsize as well.



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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:57pm
Maybe it would be fun from time to time to run races like the 18 foot skiffs sometimes do, where the fastest boats have to sail to a windward mark that's further up than the one for slower boats. But all the boats go to the same leeward mark. And the finish is at the leeward end of the course. It can lead to some odd results (from what I've seen on 18footerstv.com) but it could be fun giving it a go.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 2:17pm
Hill head's "Triangulation" race is a distance on distance handicap like that. It is indeed great fun to do. Its quite a unique situation with everyone in place order at the end of every lap, and the Oppies turning back whilst the big multis have got to go off to somewhere on the horizon...

Personally though I don't find PY racing dull. There are always people to race against, and they are different people depending on the weather, not the same ones every week, unlike class racing where the pecking order seldom varies.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 2:35pm
The Bandits? They know exactly where they are, one of them keeps time on everyone, you can tell by the increased action if we start pulling away, they put down the coffee cup and fall over themselves to pull extra bits of rope whilst having heated discussions with themselves which usually results in one of them poking the other in the eye with the spinnaker pole.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 2:37pm
As mentioned earlier - get the list of handicaps and work it out based upon the standard length race the club does or work it out based on an hour...either way we know we need at least 8mins on anything slower than us to be able to get a podium finish.  

Saying that class race - we've just grown a fleet of 9 B14's in the last few months and intend to do that rather than PY race


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RS100 GBR159


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 2:54pm
We have class racing within fast & medium handicap fleets at Shoreham, so I keep an eye on the other 'balls and they're who I focus on,  but I also track my position against the Merlins & 5o. If I'm up with the quick boats its a good day Smile; down with the slower ones is generally not a good sign Unhappy. I find I can guess the corrected position roughly to within a place or two on the water. Confirmation comes courtesy of our excellent results guru (thanks Martin) who has the results ready within an hour or so of coming off the water.


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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by JimC



Personally though I don't find PY racing dull. There are always people to race against, and they are different people depending on the weather, not the same ones every week, unlike class racing where the pecking order seldom varies.

I couldn't agree more Jim, I don't care what others are sailing i will race whatever boat is next to me.


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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 3:43pm
Sail pursuits.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 4:03pm
PY racing has it's place.

It can be frustrating when a poorly sailed faster boat sits on you all race but that is all part of it, you sail to your strengths and may get clear of them.

Plus you can get fleet within a fleet races where boats of similar speeds have a good race with each other.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 4:09pm
We had a relative novice in a Dart 15 who could not understand why we all got upset with him when he sat to windward of various people, Staying out the way! mostly the 2000 and lasers which he was going the same speed as.

I had a chat and he was amazed wind shadow went further than about 10 metres.
Nice guy just needed a little educating before somebody clocked him.

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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 5:09pm
As I remember Mr Bethwaite reckons wind shadow extends about 11x the height of the object, so a 7m mast would extend about 77m.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 6:24pm
The solution to dull PY racing is either:

i) make robes optional* 
ii) start out and finish with the firm objective of having fun in mind
iii) buy a boat you can sail to it's PY on your bit of water
iv) don't bother, go class racing instead 

*yonderland gag for those of you also watching it


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe


Originally posted by JimC


Personally though I don't find PY racing dull. There are always people to race against, and they are different people depending on the weather, not the same ones every week, unlike class racing where the pecking order seldom varies.

I couldn't agree more Jim, I don't care what others are sailing i will race whatever boat is next to me.

Agree totally


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by gordon1277

We had a relative novice in a Dart 15 who could not understand why we all got upset with him when he sat to windward of various people, Staying out the way! mostly the 2000 and lasers which he was going the same speed as.

I had a chat and he was amazed wind shadow went further than about 10 metres.
Nice guy just needed a little educating before somebody clocked him.

Somewhat confused by this, I think I get where you're coming from, helping newbies is good stuff, but surely one of the skills of any fleet racing is knowing how to find and defend your lane?

Why should Mr confused in his Dart move? If he's within the rules the way he's sailing then its down to everyone else to move. 


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 8:32pm
I agree getafix. If you don't like the dart 15 sitting to windward of you, tack off and look for clear air, but don't moan about it, he's perfectly entitled to be there.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by craiggo

but don't moan about it, he's perfectly entitled to be there.

Whilst that's perfectly true, if he's deliberately sitting up to windward to keep out of the way of the more experienced racers, then he might appreciate a quiet word after the race that in fact he's accidentally impeding them anyway.

What is never forgivable is shouting at an inexperienced competitor to tell them to get out of your way when there's nothing wrong with what they are doing rules wise.

And of course if someone attempts to deliberately mislead an inexperienced competitor as to what their rights are in a situation that's a rule 2 DND, and possibly a RRS69 hearing as well (see casebook).


Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by JimC

[QUOTE=craiggo] 
And of course if someone attempts to deliberately mislead an inexperienced competitor as to what their rights are in a situation that's a rule 2 DND, and possibly a RRS69 hearing as well (see casebook).

Does that include shouting PORT at people on starboard in the hope they don't know it's their right of way and then they tack off?


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Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by Kev M

Originally posted by JimC

[QUOTE=craiggo] 
And of course if someone attempts to deliberately mislead an inexperienced competitor as to what their rights are in a situation that's a rule 2 DND, and possibly a RRS69 hearing as well (see casebook).

Does that include shouting PORT at people on starboard in the hope they don't know it's their right of way and then they tack off?

I have on occasion shouted starboard when on port, but that was more a function of age and confusion that a deliberate attempt to mislead....


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What could possibly go wrong?


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by JimC



What is never forgivable is shouting at an inexperienced competitor to tell them to get out of your way when there's nothing wrong with what they are doing rules wise.

Yes. Absolutely agree.


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What could possibly go wrong?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 10:24pm
Back in the day, the old boy sailors would sit there smoking their pipes, shouting starboard when on port, no intention of getting out of the way, knowing full well that their buddies on a protest committee would never kick them out, and actually knowing full well that no one would try, as it would mean social death in the club. At least these days the lack of protests is due to apathy, rather than the old boy network. Or is it just because Whitefriars has only been around from 1969, not 1885?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Blue One

Sail pursuits.


Yep it's what we do week in week out in our series races and the sailors keep coming back for more.

Our one day regattas tend to be "normal" PY races and because of their infrequence the mass starts, counting of laps and crossing of finishing lines always confuses the hell out of a number of competitors.
   


Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Back in the day, the old boy sailors would sit there smoking their pipes, shouting starboard when on port, no intention of getting out of the way, knowing full well that their buddies on a protest committee would never kick them out, and actually knowing full well that no one would try, as it would mean social death in the club. At least these days the lack of protests is due to apathy, rather than the old boy network. Or is it just because Whitefriars has only been around from 1969, not 1885?

Funny enough, that's exactly what happened to me the first time I sailed at m.w.y.c. in 1999! The gentleman and I still have a laugh over it now over the bar. ( he is now 95 and only stopped sailing five years ago. :) )


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Back in the day, the old boy sailors would sit there smoking their pipes, shouting starboard when on port, no intention of getting out of the way, knowing full well that their buddies on a protest committee would never kick them out, and actually knowing full well that no one would try, as it would mean social death in the club. At least these days the lack of protests is due to apathy, rather than the old boy network. Or is it just because Whitefriars has only been around from 1969, not 1885?

That said it caused a bit of a shock when in about 1992 I submitted the first protest at WSC for a very long time on one of the Trophy Days.  It shocked the protestee even more when he was DSQ for tacking in my water....wonder if that was the last one to happen there?  But the Club handled it really well....given the lack of corporate memory of running a PC!


Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 05 Dec 13 at 8:56am
For clarification the dart was not supposed to be on our course as he should be Fast Handicap but we were quite happy for him to join in while he learnt but not for him to slow us all down while trying to stay clear and not realise he is doing it. Trying to get through the lee of a cat in a Phantom or 2000 is not easy.
Hence the quiet word.

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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 05 Dec 13 at 9:06am
Originally posted by gordon1277

For clarification the dart was not supposed to be on our course as he should be Fast Handicap but we were quite happy for him to join in while he learnt but not for him to slow us all down while trying to stay clear and not realise he is doing it. Trying to get through the lee of a cat in a Phantom or 2000 is not easy.
Hence the quiet word.

Actually, it sounds like this situation was dealt with amicably and sensibly.  It is all too easy in these situations to build up an innocent mis-understanding into one involving confrontation and argument which benefits no-one (other than this forum of course which would be starved without a bit of confrontation and argument!)



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What could possibly go wrong?


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 05 Dec 13 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Dougal

Originally posted by gordon1277

For clarification the dart was not supposed to be on our course as he should be Fast Handicap but we were quite happy for him to join in while he learnt but not for him to slow us all down while trying to stay clear and not realise he is doing it. Trying to get through the lee of a cat in a Phantom or 2000 is not easy.
Hence the quiet word.

Actually, it sounds like this situation was dealt with amicably and sensibly.  It is all too easy in these situations to build up an innocent mis-understanding into one involving confrontation and argument which benefits no-one (other than this forum of course which would be starved without a bit of confrontation and argument!)


Agreed, my point was valid (IMO) but only based on a few of the facts.  Thanks for the clarification.



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