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A what boat query

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Keelboat classes
Forum Name: Keelboat news and development
Forum Discription: All the latest developments for yachts
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10979
Printed Date: 06 Dec 19 at 10:05am
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Topic: A what boat query
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: A what boat query
Date Posted: 19 Jul 13 at 11:24pm
So, imagine you've had enough of it all and want to bugger off, maybe single handed, and you have a sub 40 grand budget, with the idea of maybe a bit of stooging around the med, then perhaps the Arc and winter in the Caribbean, what would you go for...

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Replies:
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 2:28am
A cat

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Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 6:58am
A Heron

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Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 7:48am
something old, wooden & fragileWink


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 9:04am
http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/534931/warning-after-inflatable-dinghy-rescue" rel="nofollow - http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/534931/warning-after-inflatable-dinghy-rescue


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 9:31am
No wood in sight!

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 12:43pm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pedro-17-trailer-sailer-boat-yacht-/330961354734?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item4d0ed57fee" rel="nofollow - definitely your best bet

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the same, but different...



Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 1:10pm
On a serious note check out the Lavezzi 40 from FP. In this economy you could pick an old one up for a little over 80k (100k) which is 40k in prorata terms of 'wife budget' in dinghy land.   Just scale up... And hide the receipt.

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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 4:02pm
There a thousands of answers to that question but here are a few:

Hanse 292, 300 or 301.

All based on the Aphrodite hull shape which goes very well. 34000 would pic up a nice example.

Small and simple enough to sail singlehanded but will sleep 6.

Could also look at Halmatic 30, Moody 31, Albin Ballad, GK29


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 5:29pm
So something around 30', is that long enough to comfortably deal with anything that gets chucked at it, Atlantic wise?

So try the question differently what would you buy and why?

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Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 6:15pm
They say you need a foot for every year old you are...


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by Isis

http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/534931/warning-after-inflatable-dinghy-rescue" rel="nofollow - http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/534931/warning-after-inflatable-dinghy-rescue


Wow Isis has posted, there's a blast from the past, I thought she'd died...

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Jul 13 at 10:04pm
Tends to be the old-fashioned boats that do well in rough seas - strongly built, long keels, overhangs - everything I'm asuming you would hate in a yacht?

http://www.co32.org/

Plenty of Contessa 32's have been globe trotting.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 21 Jul 13 at 12:38am
Not dead, just lurking.

As for whether any particular boat can survive a transat comfortably; well that depends a whole lot on your definition of comfort. At your age you might need to bump the budget up a bit!


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 21 Jul 13 at 9:41am
Originally posted by iGRF

So, imagine you've had enough of it all and want to bugger off, maybe single handed, and you have a sub 40 grand budget, with the idea of maybe a bit of stooging around the med, then perhaps the Arc and winter in the Caribbean, what would you go for...


Of that 40k, a lot will be eaten up in costs in the Med.
It is generally  an expensive game.


Posted By: JohnW
Date Posted: 21 Jul 13 at 3:55pm
40K would just about get you a week's charter of this:

http://www.wally.com/dark-shadow-charter/" rel="nofollow - http://www.wally.com/dark-shadow-charter/  




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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Jul 13 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by JohnW

40K would just about get you a week's charter of this:

http://www.wally.com/dark-shadow-charter/" rel="nofollow - http://www.wally.com/dark-shadow-charter/  




Wow.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 8:28am
there is a min size ruleing for the arc and you would stuggle to get 15k change out of the stuff u need for it, i have a few customers at the moment who are planning on doing it and they are adding40-50k to get their boats ready

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TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: marke
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 9:30am
Having done the packing it all in and sailing away for a couple of years with my partner (and now spouse) I would strongly recommend getting a boat that your intended crew can handle comfortably.  Anything bigger than about 34' is going to be too big a handful for mooring, docking, reefing for two people unless you have a lot of electronics and motorised support equipment (and that is all going to be broken within 6 months of pushing off).  We saw so many couples struggling and fighting to control their very flash 45'-50' boats, when we could handle our 30' boat in pretty much anything.  As others have mentioned many older designs are very seaworthy.

Absolutely the best thing I ever did, and once the kids have left home, we'll be off again.  We are a bit older now so we'll probably get a 34' with a few more mod cons - but absolutely the minimum electronics and stuff that can (and will) break 100s of miles from where it can be fixed.  In mast reefing - don't make me laugh.

Top tip - always ship about twice as much gin as you think you are going to need for a passage!

Mark


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 9:57am
agree with the above totally when it comes to classic sailing monohulls... I wouldn't want much more than 34 for wife and kids sailing, it's just too much of a pig around a marina.  However motorboats, motorsailers and cats can enable you to push up the LWL (and increase the accommodation size accordingly) without necessarily being any less comfortable to handle.  And I certainly wouldn't be snotty about these types of watercraft - at the end of the day it's a floating caravan, not a race machine, comfort and ease win every time.  

I also agree about KISS when it comes to yacht ownership.  The more there is to go wrong, the more WILL go wrong and there's nothing quite like sh*t creek without a decent rigger/marine electrician/marine engineer to get you out of it. 


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Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 10:01am
have to disagree a bit there, as i regually take a 50fter out with just 2 of us. in and out of marinas, its all just planning and learning the boat

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TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 10:09am
to an extent it depends on the marina.... in the med (or certainly the Spanish coastline were we are) they are often nose, or stern on without any side decking.  This means jumping from the pulpit or stepping off the transom- a bigger boat is obviously higher up, meaning a bigger jump, and of course with more weight in motion, you are solely reliant on the engine for reverse braking, rather than a bit of physical handling from the dockside to dead stop the thing on tick over.  

Larger motor cruisers and motorboats obviously are designed better to work under the engine, less reverse skew and bow thrusters can make it a lot easier.


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Posted By: marke
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 10:40am
agreed - marinas are not really a problem for a bigger boat, but if I'm intending to sail off for a couple of years I'm only going to be hitting marinas very infrequently (gin stocking largely).  Whats the point of sailing from marina to marina.  Based on watching a lot of other cruising couples I stand by my observation that there is a lot less shouting and drama on boats of 35' and under (with some notable exceptions - typically traditional boats that have been designed for short-handed cruising).  As you get towards 40' everything gets bigger, more expensive and more complicated.  . . . and most critically I can probably afford to cruise for twice as long on a 34' than a 50'.




Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 11:13am
Originally posted by marke

...I stand by my observation that there is a lot less shouting and drama on boats of 35' and under ....

Maybe shouty people can just afford bigger boats?
 
TBH in my limited experience, a yacht is a yacht. Anything big enough to carry a fortnight's food for two is not really intended for manual handling. You have to use the engine and controls, it's just a slight difference of scale.
The difference between a decent yacht with a good engine and a spade rudder and a long keeler that does its own thing in reverse is far greater.
 
Of the people I have known go off on long cruises more than once, I've not seen any of them downsize their boat.
 
OTOH, read the book 'Shrimpy' about the bloke who circumnavigated in something under 20ft long IIRC.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 1:09pm
Chaps you're missing the 'single handed' bit, I'm in fantasising about chucking everything up and buggering off for a bit mode, I don't want to buy some huge depreciation exercise, want something that is controllable will take a big sea and storm if I get caught out (will bounce back up when slammed), has all the lazy arse mod cons, but doesn't cost the earth and maybe not lose too much if I flogged it on my return (If I come back at all).

I'd want to solar panel and wind machine equip it, would probably want f**k off big water and diesel tanks and some where to hide an AK47. Accommodation to cope with Wife and daughter occasional visits and that about sums it up, I'm a bit particular so don't want to totally slum it, would love a cruising cat, allways reckoned they were the dogs doo dahs, but.. would be worried about going over in a hoolie and they are ef off expensive, nice to charter with a bunch of lads, but not good for a long term jolly and expensive in marinas I seem to recall. I'm not really a marina type, I'd normally stand off, once water and provisioned or someone asks for money.

There are some nice examples back early on in the thread, some I'd never heard of, so my question was given y'all are a knowledgable lot what would you do, if you were able to(not entirely sure I'll get away with it just yet).

My experience is fairly limited, I did a couple of week bare boat Greek Island cruise in something called a Westerly Centaur once back in the seventies and a blue water Caribbean jolly in some bloody great under canvassed 40 odd foot deal that even the whales shied away from, was one of the Moorings fleet out of St Maarten. I found the sensation fairly boring tbh, but then I'm now old enough not to worry so much, however I would like to have some lively feel in the seat of my pants if you catch my drift..

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 1:20pm
Contessa 32...

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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Contessa 32...
 
Trouble with them is most of them are now very old, with old unreliable kit.
Last time I raced against one, after enduring the father of the owner saying how seaworthy they were, their jib cars broke before they left the solent.
The good ones will have had everything replaced, but they seem to cost a lot for what they are.
Probably becasue they have one-design racing.
 
One of those mini transat jobs would suit GRF....


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 1:32pm
yes, +1 on all that.  But they do float higher in the sea and you can leebow the tide in one.

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 1:46pm
Graeme- worth a trip up north to the Medway?

http://www.boatshed.com/beneteau_oceanis_320-boat-152143.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.boatshed.com/beneteau_oceanis_320-boat-152143.html


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Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Contessa 32...

Freeboard's very low. Too wet for comfort, IMHO. 

If all you're going to do is summer in the Med/tradwinds across the pond, then pretty much any AWB will be fine. If you want to go Newfoundland/Greenland etc, then something a bit rufty-tuftier needed - Ovni/Boreal etc. 

Wind vane ss (which can use a tiller pilot for servo pendulum assisted ss) AIUI has big benefits on power draw. 


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 4:58pm
If you do travel upto the Medway you could come for a sale with us on our Beneteau 32s5 to get an idea of what these coastal cruisers are like. 

I have to say though as much as its great fun for family holidays up the east coast and for racing around the cans... I'm not sure Id want to go around the world in it?

Ian


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N12 3441


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 8:32pm
Thanks Ian, a question, how easy do the masts come down, can it be done on the hoof so to speak?

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 22 Jul 13 at 9:15pm
- no, not on your tod or with a mate.  

But if you're planning on dutch canal motoring, or travelling on the rivers of france on a gastronomic adventure, then local yards are often in situ in most place to lay up the mast across the pulpit and transom.  


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Posted By: about a boat
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 9:06am
http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/boats.phtml?id=89&mi=7727" rel="nofollow -
Got to go a long way to beat a HR. As said before the older ones are not to be dicounted either. All blue water cruisers no matter what the size too.
 
http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/boats.phtml?id=89&mi=7727


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 9:27am
What's the story with steel hulls?

Logic suggests longevity, no osmosis, etc but what are the downsides, other than weight?

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 9:37am
painting it...

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Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 9:58am
I'm not sure its going to be that easy to drop the mast on anything that is seaworthy enough for bluewater sailing plus big enough to comfortably live on for extended periods.

The other thing to consider is that the masts used with bendy factional rigs don't necessarily make the strongest most seaworthy boats for surviving the worst a big sea can through at you.... 

Ian






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N12 3441


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 10:00am
would you recommend keel step at as minimum Mark / Ian?

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Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 10:02am
But then again this guy has only spent a few hundred quid on a 20ft boat and he is traveling down to the med

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/so-there-i-was-on-the-pontoon-at-gainsborough/" rel="nofollow - http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/so-there-i-was-on-the-pontoon-at-gainsborough/

Its not the way I'd want to do it but each to there own.

Ian


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N12 3441


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 10:04am
Originally posted by yellowwelly

would you recommend keel step at as minimum Mark / Ian?

I'm no expert and not sure i should comment, the Beneteau is my firts yacht. But if the plan is to go down through the french canals then a keel step will leave a big hole in the roof all the time the mast is down?

Ian


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N12 3441


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 10:17am
Going down to the med via the French Canals seemed to me to be a no brainer, I've motor cruised them in the past in another life when i used to take photographs for Blakes Holidays, the Norfolk Broads cruising company that were expanding to offer rental fleets on the Canals out of Narbonne, Lateral a la Garonne, Du Midi, down to Sete.

Fabulous experience, buying wine on draft out of the back door of the Vinyards at 50centimes a litre (It was 1975) always wanted to go back, they are commercial waterways, the French invested heavily in the 70's, not sure what they are like now, back then they had these huge locomotives with a big plunger, came down behind the boat and the water and pushed the whole lot up this concrete slope instead of a lock system, amazing.

So back to the steel hull thing, so painting it, the only draw back, i could live with that, I have this urge to be a kind of water pikey that everyone avoids except female chocolatiers..

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 23 Jul 13 at 10:20am
yep- that's what I kind of thought, however there's also that old school of thought that without a keel step you've not got the seaworthiness... that said, my family have sailed french boats of 32+ in up to F8 gusts in the north sea/channel, it's not fun or comfortable, but the basic sailing equipment seems to hold out.

Back to a Graeme and his boat buying trade offs!  


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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 24 Jul 13 at 9:14pm
Well I've owned and sailed singlehandedly a Moody 44 and an RM880(a nice fast French boat). I sold the 44 as it was too much hassle for Solent sailing although wonderful for passage sailing (and no problem single handing). The 29ft RM was a lot more fun to sail but harder to singlehand because the boat needed a lot more attention whilst sailing. Amply proved to me that you can't have everything and every boat is a compromise.

If I was in the same situation now I would probably be looking at 36 foot, medium displacement boat that had proven good manners. I would also make sure that it can sail reasonably from 5 knots of wind upwards. Some boats take 10 knots of wind before they get going which means you have the engine on far too often.

Can't say what boat fits that criteria though....


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 25 Jul 13 at 5:18pm
Last few weeks I have been sailing / racing our 32 on my own. 

One other point on size however is that you may well be able to sail a 50ft boat on your own, even park it in a marina on your own but you wont spend your life in marinas and 50 ft boats have large anchors to suit... Pulling mine up by hand is hard work when its well dug in not sure what id do if it was twice the size and the windlass packed up


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N12 3441


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Jul 13 at 9:30pm
Was round at a mates last night, he was cracking on about a Macgregor 26 trailorsailer.. what's the skinny with them?
Allegedly you can water ski off the back of them, they're unsinkable and quite quick, can't believe they're upwind quick, but it looks like an interesting idea, water ballast.

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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 25 Jul 13 at 9:40pm
Jack of all trades, pretty rubbish at anything specific. Usually bought by newcomers who don't know better. A separate Mobo and sailing yacht would be far better if you want to cover all options, otherwise just stick to one type.



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