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How international is sailing?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10856
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 12:04pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: How international is sailing?
Posted By: 2547
Subject: How international is sailing?
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 9:44am
Just looking at the 505 worlds results, a class I had always considered to be one of the true international classes ...

It is basically just 4 nations ... GER, GBR, USA & AUS Ouch

Outside of the Olympic Classes and Optimist which classes are getting a decent mix or are these 4 nations the powehouses of dinghy sailing?



Replies:
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 9:58am
It depends on the class. You can subtract GER and add FRA, CAN and RSA for Fireballs. Enterboxes are very popular in India. Danes are usually quite strong in 5o's, too. Poland and Brazil in the Cadet class. The list goes on...

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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 10:02am
RS700s are popular in the Czech Republic.

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Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 10:06am
This year is the Bi-Annual Albacore Internationals in Abersoch from 3rd-9th August.
It is held in UK waters every four years and rotates between North America, Scotland, Canada and England / Wales.
 
According to ISAF I think you need 7 contries to call it a world championships, otherwise you have to call it an Internationals Championships.
 
We have containers coming from both Canada and North America as well as a whole host of X National and World Champions from the UK.


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Phil A8152 "Albaholic"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 10:16am
Sailing is totally international, it is what is sailed that isn't. I've even heard rumours that the is a spot somewhere in the world with neither a Laser nor a Sunfish nearby, but that might not be true...


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Rupert

Sailing is totally international, it is what is sailed that isn't.

Particularly noticeable with keelboats. You seem to get European classes, British Commonwealth classes and Americas classes, but rarely truly worldwide ones.

Originally posted by MrGin

According to ISAF I think you need 7 contries to call it a world championships, otherwise you have to call it an Internationals Championships

I haven't heard that, but could easily be wrong. I thought with ISAF to get Worlds the class had to qualify as suitably International, with established fleets in a requisite number of countries (varies with boat size and whether its an International or recognised class).
With the International Canoe Federation, OTOH, we Canoe sailors do have to get the right number of countries to call it a worlds, to the chagrin of the asymmetric sailors.


Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 10:34am
JimC, I think you are right, Albacores are only sailed in NA, Canada, UK and at one point in Gibralta! There are also a few in Ireland. Not enough contries for "World" status.

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Phil A8152 "Albaholic"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 11:22am
Enough countries on enough continents, I think, for a worlds.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 11:30am
Crucially, the countries and continents don't have to be represented at the Worlds to maintain status. Merely showing activity in the class in that country counts.

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-_
Al


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 11:46am
Contenders have participants from the UK, Australia, USA, Canada, Germany, Holland, Italy, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Switzerland and France who regularily turn up at World Championships. There may be other countries that I have missed as well or are only occasional visitors.
 
I think the MPS and foiling Moth may also be well attended by various international competitors.


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 11:53am
I once watched the F1 World Stock Car Championships at White City Dog Track near Manchester United football ground. It was international because there was one American out of about 40, in a borrowed car. Most drivers were from the Manchester area. When I questioned one of the organisers about the legitimacy of the "World" status he said, "Well no one stopped them coming".  I think I paid an extra 2s 6d for that.


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 11:56am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

RS700s are popular in the Czech Republic.

To my knowledge 700's are sailed in the UK, France, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Spain, Switzerland, Germany, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Australia, Denmark, New Zealand, Italy and Dubai. But we're not an International class!


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

RS700s are popular in the Czech Republic.

There has to be an opportunity for a Borat style jape there ... LOL

I guess they are so cheap 2nd hand that they are affordable in Eastern Europe.

Many/most classes claim long lists of countries that sail their class but usually there is just one or two boats.

The Moth Europeans currently running seems to be limited in nations too ...

Seems you need to be either Olympic or a youth class to make true international penetration.

It would be good to see a Worlds Attendance table similar to the nationals one that detailed boats and nations ... has Y&Y got the data for a worlds table?


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by 2547


Originally posted by pondmonkey

RS700s are popular in the Czech Republic.

There has to be an opportunity for a Borat style jape there ... LOL
I guess they are so cheap 2nd hand that they are affordable in Eastern Europe.
Many/most classes claim long lists of countries that sail their class but usually there is just one or two boats.
The Moth Europeans currently running seems to be limited in nations too ...
Seems you need to be either Olympic or a youth class to make true international penetration.
It would be good to see a Worlds Attendance table similar to the nationals one that detailed boats and nations ... has Y&Y got the data for a worlds table?


Be nice if you could find a second hand RS700 at the moment. Don't know about cheap any more as the demand on the continent is so strong. I just agreed to trade in my boat and it has already been sold into Holland. If anyone knows of any old boats not being used please PM me...


Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:40pm
The 100s are having their first Worlds this year (Como) , 4 different countries entered so far
Australia, Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Germany, Denmark, Spain, France, UK, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden & US all have boats


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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by MrGin

According to ISAF I think you need 7 contries to call it a world championships, otherwise you have to call it an Internationals Championships.

Yes, according to ISAF, the Vago is entitled to hold a Worlds on that basis, when in fact I suspect it is raced only in UK, and even here barely so.

Wayfarers., on the other hand, with over 100 boats at their 'International Championships' had well over 100 boats from at least 5 countries, but were not entitled to use the term 'Worlds'.




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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by pondmonkey

RS700s are popular in the Czech Republic.

There has to be an opportunity for a Borat style jape there ... LOL

Since when was the Czech Republic in or anywhere near Kazakhstan?!  They were both under the Russian yoke 20-odd years ago, but that's about it... Smile


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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 1:49pm
It may have something to do with having to pay ISAF, so that you can use the word "World" at a sailing championship, i will find out this weekend as I dont know the full story.

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Phil A8152 "Albaholic"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by MrGin

It may have something to do with having to pay ISAF, so that you can use the word "World" at a sailing championship,

No, the situation is only ISAF International and Recognised Classes are allowed World Champs.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Ian29937

Originally posted by pondmonkey

RS700s are popular in the Czech Republic.

To my knowledge 700's are sailed in the UK, France, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Spain, Switzerland, Germany, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Australia, Denmark, New Zealand, Italy and Dubai. But we're not an International class!


What with there being quite a few on the Island Republic of Hayling, I'm surprised there's any left for England.

How many of those countries have ever had a class race for RS700's?

And why exactly has the RS400 never sold abroad very well?


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 2:17pm
From Appendix A of the class reports for every International class, here's the eligibility criteria:

APPENDIX A

Class minimum requirements for ISAF Status as for ISAF Regulation 10.2.1(e): Designation as an ISAF Class

Entitled to World Championship

Category according to Hull Length

Boats per MNA

No. of MNAs

No. of Continents

Boats up to 6.0m

15

5

2

Boats >6.0m to 9.0m

7

4

2

Boats >9.0m to 12.0m

6

3

2

Boats >12.0m to 15.0m

4

3

2

Boats >15.0m

2

3

2

 
Edit: the edior has mangled this slightly. The "Entitled to World Championships" header is supposed to be just above the "No. of continents" column, and the other big header should be above "Boats per MNA" and "No. of MNAs".


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-_
Al


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by MrGin

It may have something to do with having to pay ISAF, so that you can use the word "World" at a sailing championship,

No, the situation is only ISAF International and Recognised Classes are allowed World Champs.
And how do you get to be an ISAF International and Recognised Class? Pay for it?  Else provide an alternative explanation for the Vago situation?

http://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/VAGO.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/VAGO.php

Edit: just seen Al's post.  I'm still at a loss unless they count sailing schools/holiday fleets like Minorca Sailing.  Hardly right that, though, is it?


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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by pondmonkey

RS700s are popular in the Czech Republic.

There has to be an opportunity for a Borat style jape there ... LOL

Since when was the Czech Republic in or anywhere near Kazakhstan?!  They were both under the Russian yoke 20-odd years ago, but that's about it... Smile

http://dailycurrant.com/2013/04/22/sarah-palin-calls-invasion-czech-republic/" rel="nofollow - try this


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Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 2:45pm
To be recognised by ISAF you therefore have to pay them, the classes that come under the RYA as National classes, that may or may not have International Associations are RYA Classes not ISAF classes.
 
http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/equipmentclasses/nationalclasses/Pages/national-classes.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/equipmentclasses/nationalclasses/Pages/national-classes.aspx
 
With respect to the Albacore, the RYA are the copyright holders, but there is an International Albacore Association. The RYA do an excellent job with the Albacore, but it does not stop us holding International competitions. To hold a world championship we would have to be an ISAF class and it costs!


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Phil A8152 "Albaholic"


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by MrGin

It may have something to do with having to pay ISAF, so that you can use the word "World" at a sailing championship,

No, the situation is only ISAF International and Recognised Classes are allowed World Champs.

I believe the concept of recognised classes is long since defunct.

It used to be a stepping stone to international status but was dropped some years ago.

You are either an international class or not ...





Originally posted by Medway Maniac

 
I'm still at a loss unless they count sailing schools/holiday fleets like Minorca Sailing.  Hardly right that, though, is it?

It is of course a nonsense but the big manufacturers seem to like to get it done when they have shipped boats to schools. ISAF status is a bigger deal overseas as it seems to make it easier to sell boats to institutions if ISAF have rubber stamped it ... Confused






Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 3:05pm
If you have to be an ISAF International class to hold a 'worlds', why don't you have to be an RYA National class to hold a 'Nationals', as opposed to a  'Class Champs'. If the RYA then kept the National classes up to date, we would have an automatic qualification for the Endeavour trophy.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 3:10pm
I think it would make more sense if the ISAF status required a functioning class association to be present in a number of countries rather than a manufacturer just producing a delivery note ...


Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 3:24pm
The Endeavour trophey has nothing to do with the RYA it just recognises it. It is by invitation only. I'm not sure which class you refer too with respect to automatic qualification.
http://royalcorinthian.co.uk/endeavour/" rel="nofollow - http://royalcorinthian.co.uk/endeavour/

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Phil A8152 "Albaholic"


Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by 2547

I think it would make more sense if the ISAF status required a functioning class association to be present in a number of countries rather than a manufacturer just producing a delivery note ...
 
Good idea but it's more about the money RE: Kirby Torch/Laser


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Phil A8152 "Albaholic"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by MrGin

The Endeavour trophey has nothing to do with the RYA it just recognises it. It is by invitation only. I'm not sure which class you refer too with respect to automatic qualification.
http://royalcorinthian.co.uk/endeavour/" rel="nofollow - http://royalcorinthian.co.uk/endeavour/


None, at the moment, seeing as it is by invite. However, if you look back through previous postings on the subject, who gets the invite (or doesn't) can cause handbags at dawn on here. If the RYA kept the concept of National Classes current, then it would make a good basis for who gets the invites. I'm sure there would be many other uses for it, too.

However, the concept of National classes seems to be very out of favour in the sailing world - maybe it became an old-fashioned idea when the most sailed classes of racing dinghy ceased to be local classes and became thinly spread over large geographic areas, whereas before only a few classes were widespread enough to be "National".

Pretty much the same could be said for International classes - some have massive geographic spread, thanks to holiday companies, but no real international competition.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by MrGin

The Endeavour trophey has nothing to do with the RYA it just recognises it. It is by invitation only. I'm not sure which class you refer too with respect to automatic qualification.
http://royalcorinthian.co.uk/endeavour/" rel="nofollow - http://royalcorinthian.co.uk/endeavour/


None, at the moment, seeing as it is by invite. However, if you look back through previous postings on the subject, who gets the invite (or doesn't) can cause handbags at dawn on here. If the RYA kept the concept of National Classes current, then it would make a good basis for who gets the invites. I'm sure there would be many other uses for it, too.

However, the concept of National classes seems to be very out of favour in the sailing world - maybe it became an old-fashioned idea when the most sailed classes of racing dinghy ceased to be local classes and became thinly spread over large geographic areas, whereas before only a few classes were widespread enough to be "National".

Pretty much the same could be said for International classes - some have massive geographic spread, thanks to holiday companies, but no real international competition.
 
Both ISAF and the RYA are both adminstrators for there classes. The National Class associations recommend to the RYA about rule changes and the RYA check the validity of the changes and then adminstrate them by releasing new class rules, I suspect it works the same for a lot of the ISAF class associations ( ie GP14) except for the Manufacture's classes that only have one builder ( ie RS / topper).


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Phil A8152 "Albaholic"


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 03 May 13 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Rupert

If you have to be an ISAF International class to hold a 'worlds', why don't you have to be an RYA National class to hold a 'Nationals', as opposed to a  'Class Champs'. 

Used to be how it works. Local classes, national classes (which hold nationals), international classes which hold worlds. 


Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 04 May 13 at 3:11am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by MrGin

According to ISAF I think you need 7 contries to call it a world championships, otherwise you have to call it an Internationals Championships.

Yes, according to ISAF, the Vago is entitled to hold a Worlds on that basis, when in fact I suspect it is raced only in UK, and even here barely so.

Wayfarers., on the other hand, with over 100 boats at their 'International Championships' had well over 100 boats from at least 5 countries, but were not entitled to use the term 'Worlds'.



The wayfarer was an interesting one, when I worked at ISAF I had to write to them instructing them to not use the term "world" not something I'm pleased to have had to do

About the same time there was a trend to send ringers to the worlds with fabricated nationalities in an attempt to make it look like a class was more international

The favourite was to get a Brit or European who was working in Dubai to stick UAE on the sail to boost the continents when they are not citizens of that country, to be honest it's really obvious what they are doing when you are sat at ISAF making decisions so I'm not sure why they bothered!

For example I'm in Australia now and sail with Australian sail numbers whilst here but if I went to a worlds I could display AUS but I can't count as an Australian entrant since I'm not a citizen of Australia

That's why activity in the required number of countries is looked for not worlds attendance - it's too easy to find dual citizens to display exotic sail numbers, much harder to get fleets of boats

It would appear the holiday centres are the new loop, but having 20 fevas on a beach in Egypt sailed by British holiday makers doesn't make an international class either does it?



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Spiral 816


Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 04 May 13 at 6:57am
Originally posted by 2547

Just looking at the 505 worlds results, a class I had always considered to be one of the true international classes ...

It is basically just 4 nations ... GER, GBR, USA & AUS Ouch

Outside of the Olympic Classes and Optimist which classes are getting a decent mix or are these 4 nations the powehouses of dinghy sailing?

Looking at the results there's 2 from Denmark, Sweden, France and one from Canada

Seems pretty international to me! It would have cost thousands of pounds to transport a boat to Barbados and fly with accommodation etc factors like that would have limited the attending nations

Still with that considered 8 nations represented from 3 continents in one of the least accessible, albeit glorious, venues in the world speaks volumes for the class


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Spiral 816


Posted By: Mike Holt
Date Posted: 04 May 13 at 3:27pm
More representative would be the 505 Worlds in 2012, in France, 188 boats, 15 countries, 3 continents.

Although probably a better way to tell if a class is truly "International" is how many countries host a National Championship for that class.


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 04 May 13 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by Mike Holt

More representative would be the 505 Worlds in 2012, in France, 188 boats, 15 countries, 3 continents.

Although probably a better way to tell if a class is truly "International" is how many countries host a National Championship for that class.

Ah, that is a bit more what I'd expect to see for the 505. 

I guess any event outside of Europe will have a diminished  fleet due to cost. 



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