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Enterprise sail advice please

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10825
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 9:43am
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Topic: Enterprise sail advice please
Posted By: Solitaireblue
Subject: Enterprise sail advice please
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 6:02pm

This is my first posting so ‘hello’ to everybody. I wonder if anybody might give me some advice please.

I am returning to sailing after a good number of years and have bought an Enterprise. I used to own one many years ago and remember having a set of ‘cruising’ sails which I used when sailing single handed in stronger winds. I just cannot remember what the sizing was or if the jib was smaller too.

The new boat came with two sets of full size sails and I am having one of the mains cut down at present slightly for when I use it on my own, but it has occurred to me that maybe I should have the jib cut down slightly too to match. If I don’t and use the jib from the full size set with the ‘cut down’ main version would that unbalance the boat? Any suggestions would be very welcome.




Replies:
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:32am
It's been a long long time since I saw a set of Ent Cruising sails, maybe the 1960s.

To be honest to get a set of reduced size sails that gave you approx balance I would be inclined to buy a set of 2nd hand Firefly sails (with rope/wire strops to cater for the halyard length differences). 6 inches of sticky backed plastic and you could change the F to an E and have a unique set of white ent sails.

Good sailing


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Simon SUGmeister
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:10am
The Firefly seems a common choice for people after sails slightly smaller than full size. It will definitely turn heads to see an Enterprise without the blue colour though!
 
Here's a few classes with their sail area in square metres:
  • Mirror - 6.4
  • Gull - 6.5
  • Heron - 7.61
  • 405 - 7.98
  • Graduate - 8.36
  • National 12 - 8.4
  • RS Feva - 8.6
  • Laser 2 - 8.64
  • Miracle - 8.9
  • Firefly - 9
  • Topaz Vibe - 9.11
  • Laser 13 - 9.32
  • Lark - 9.75
  • Enterprise - 10.5


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:11am
To my mind the exact balance between main and jib is a lot less critical than some of the old school thinkers would have you believe. These days with masts raked a lot more than they used to be, the side load is shared between rudder and board, so if you chop a bit off the main all you really do is move the balance back forward a bit. I wouldn't worry unless you run into issues.

Having said that there is an awful lot to be said for having smaller sails off another class, but the big problem you may run into is the jib sheeting angle being wrong, especially as there isn't a lot of fore an aft adjustment on Enterprises. If you end up having to have a jib recut anyway you may as well et an Enterprise one changed.


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 11:15am
We have an old Ent with a set of reduced sails, jib and main. We used it for cruising with a couple of kids. Great times.

In the end we didn't bother with the small jib. Too much mucking around and it didn't make much difference to handling. If we were overpowered on the water with the small main we dropped the main and sailed on jib only. The ent will go to windward quite well on jib only, you just need to give yourself more water when tacking.........Practice on jib only in safe conditions to get the hang of upwind sailing, you'll be surprised how well it goes.


Posted By: Solitaireblue
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 11:46am

Thanks for all the advice so far, appreciated.

The company reducing the main sail did mention sizing the sail the same as a Firefly. I left it in their hands to get the size right and waiting to hear back.

It’s good to hear your experiences sailing with the full size jib with ‘cruising’ main. Using jib only in certain circumstances never crossed my mind. I will take your advice and try this out when conditions allow.

It has also been suggested that I use a Roller furling jib but guess maybe more trouble setting up than it’s worth?



Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 11:49am
I wonder if reefing or using smaller sails on dinghies isn't as common as it used to be?    I can recall several of the Ents at my club back in the 70s going out with reefed or cruising sails for really windy races.

Re the point about sailing with jib alone - yes I used to do that sometimes when my kids were very young. Gave a very relaxed sail even in complete windy nutter conditions !


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 12:08pm
I was musing about sailing under jib alone while watching our asymmetrics in huge trouble trying to get home in Sunday's wind. 

Sailing on the jib was all part of learning to sail way back when, but would have been quite impossible with the boats I was watching, esp. with a short footed, self-tacking jib. And high-aspect, minimum area centreboards are great all the while you can keep moving fast and in balance, but otherwise...


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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 12:50pm
When I wanted to cruise in my Lark I had a set of reefing cringles put in about 2' above the boom on an old sail, making sure that the leech cringle was a bit higher to raise the boom.  I found I could quite happily put in the reef afloat (simple lashing at tack and clew) and then carry on with the full size jib.  When it got really windy I just lowered the jib.  Even though singlehanded I could still be out when all other dinghies had gone in.

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PeterV
Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29
Warsash


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Late starter

I wonder if reefing or using smaller sails on dinghies isn't as common as it used to be?    I can recall several of the Ents at my club back in the 70s going out with reefed or cruising sails for really windy races.
Modern sails, masts and controls make it easier to depower a racing a sail- possibly almost to the equivalent of reefing an old racing sail.
 
However, reefing is still a technique taught on RYA courses- a well equipped sailing teaching centre certainly needs boats that are reefable, ideally in a more complex manner than a Topper, and most of the "plastic tub" boats tend to come with reefable mainsails (often using zip-reefing rather than old style "round the boom" roller or tie-down slab)


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-_
Al


Posted By: Solitaireblue
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:14pm

Many thanks for all the advice and info. Its given me quite a few options and ideas to explore.



Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:24pm
I tried to post something from my tablet but the battery ran out mid-post.

I think Al is correct, up until the late 80s it was pretty common to see boats reefing in anything over a F4. Typically we'd roll the mainsail around the boom with a strop on the end of the kicker which we rolled up in the sail. This was possible mainly because boats tended to be aft sheeted. (Its difficult to roll a mainsail around the boom when the mainsheet attaches to middle of the boom).

Since the 80s rig controls have massively improved mainly in the ropes available and the size of high quality blocks reducing. This has enabled sail shape to be controlled far more than in the past.

Unfortunately many non-racers assume that all the string in most racing dinghies is complicated and uneccessary however, in the majority of classes they still only really have a kicker, cunningham and outhaul it is just that they are led to suitable places in the boat and have systems to take up the slack. Many non-racers would gain massively from using the same systems as it would make for far more comfortable sailing.


Posted By: Solitaireblue
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by craiggo

Unfortunately many non-racers assume that all the string in most racing dinghies is complicated and uneccessary however, in the majority of classes they still only really have a kicker, cunningham and outhaul it is just that they are led to suitable places in the boat and have systems to take up the slack. Many non-racers would gain massively from using the same systems as it would make for far more comfortable sailing.


Yes, the Enterprise I have bought was used for single handed racing and has lines running back to control Kicker, cunningham and outhaul etc etc without need for a crew. Im glad you have mentioned this as some ppl have advised me to clear out all of this and go back to simple basics. Not keen to do this if the system may benefit me in every day sailing too. I have read on this site about adjustments to all of these whilst sailing to get the most out of the boat but not exactly sure the procedure to use to help if I become overpowered somewhat.


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:19pm
Was the boat really raced singlehanded?
Controls led aft to the helm are typical, they are not a singlehanded thing! Generally the crew will play the jib but the helm can feel the balance of the boat through the rudder and through his backside and therefore adjust the sail controls to ensure the boat is balanced and driving smoothly.

In simple terms the kicker is used to keep the boom level, so that when you ease the mainsheet the boom doesn't move vertically. Generally pull it on hard upwind so that if you ease the mainsheet you dont get a huge loss of power and loads of drag, instead you get a gradual loss of power and it also takes some of the load off of the mainsheet.
The cunningham was historically lightly used and often set for the days conditions, but is a really useful control. Pulling it on hard pulls the draft of the sail fwds and by bending the mast it tends to flatten the mid & upper sail depowering these areas.
The outhaul controls the depth of the sail. In zephyr light winds it pays to have it tight so that flow can attach to the sail. When the wind starts getting heavy it should also be pulled in tight as this flattens and de-powers the foot of the sail.

Theres more detail out there but these basic principles should get you started.


Posted By: Solitaireblue
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by craiggo

Was the boat really raced singlehanded?
Controls led aft to the helm are typical, they are not a singlehanded thing! Generally the crew will play the jib but the helm can feel the balance of the boat through the rudder and through his backside and therefore adjust the sail controls to ensure the boat is balanced and driving smoothly.

Thanks for your time in explaining things clearly, helps considerably.  The guy I bought the boat from said it had been raced single handed by the previous owner who refurbished it completely so assumed it was to help him in racing. The lines run back to the thwarts about halfway back so I guess it could be used by crew as well. I just assumed as the controls were all within reach of the helmsman it was mainly for single handed sailing. My last Enterprise was very old and very basic so seeing how this boat is laid out with lines and pulleys everywhere confused me at first! 






Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 8:56am
Most of the Ents I have seen have their control lines rigged back to the thwart so this is probably the current way of doing things.

The control they do not seem to use (or even attach) is the cunningham.


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Solitaireblue
Date Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 9:15am
Originally posted by jeffers

Most of the Ents I have seen have their control lines rigged back to the thwart so this is probably the current way of doing things.

The control they do not seem to use (or even attach) is the cunningham.


Thanks for the info. Nice to know its probably the current way of doing things. I will leave in place and use instead of stripping out and going back to basics. I was advised to not do too much adjusting of both Kicker and cunningham whilst sailing as one might cancel out the other if not done correctly. Just want to use boat for cruising really so fine tuning for getting more speed etc wont be necessary.

Cheers


Posted By: SamM
Date Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 9:32am
I still use the control lines when I'm cruising. They're pretty important for retaining control of the boat and helping you sail it more easily. In simple terms, use the cunningham upwind when you're getting overpowered (the more overpowered you are, the more you pull on). For the kicker a simple rule of thumb is to keep the top batten tell tale on the main streaming for about half of the time. Upwind, the windier it is, the more you'll pull on. This takes power out of the rig and sail in more control. Downwind you need to let it off a bit otherwise your boom will hit the water too easily (boom & water combination = swim). If you let it off too much on a dead run you might find the boat death roles, but if you keep checking your top tell tale every now and then you won't go too far wrong.

I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be without my control lines when sailing down Loch Ness in 20 knots of breeze with my camping kit on board and no safety cover around!




Posted By: Solitaireblue
Date Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 9:46am
Originally posted by SamM

I still use the control lines when I'm cruising. They're pretty important for retaining control of the boat and helping you sail it more easily. In simple terms, use the cunningham upwind when you're getting overpowered (the more overpowered you are, the more you pull on). For the kicker a simple rule of thumb is to keep the top batten tell tale on the main streaming for about half of the time. Upwind, the windier it is, the more you'll pull on. This takes power out of the rig and sail in more control. Downwind you need to let it off a bit otherwise your boom will hit the water too easily (boom & water combination = swim). If you let it off too much on a dead run you might find the boat death roles, but if you keep checking your top tell tale every now and then you won't go too far wrong.

I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be without my control lines when sailing down Loch Ness in 20 knots of breeze with my camping kit on board and no safety cover around!



Thanks. This helps me no end. I have been searching the net for some time for advice on using both kicker and cunningham etc usefully and yours and Jeffers advice has answered my queries perfectly. Much appreciated.

Sounds as if you had a great time sailing in Loch Ness I know the area as used to spend time in Scotland camping and climbing; took a boat trip once on the loch impressive scenery.





Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 3:51pm
Whether singlehanded or not, a jib is often handy to help manoeverability! Perhaps you fudged a tack and you're really near a moored yacht - quick, back the jib and phew, you're saved.
 
If there are no windows in your sails, a short strop of wire under the jib tack will raise it off the foredeck to aid visibility when you've only got one pair of eyes aboard.



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