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RS200 Continuous Kicker and what else?

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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10822
Printed Date: 26 Jan 21 at 2:12am
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Topic: RS200 Continuous Kicker and what else?
Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Subject: RS200 Continuous Kicker and what else?
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 9:52am
Hi there,

I've just bought an older RS200 (489) and want to pop a continuous kicker system on it and also wondered what other upgrades I should be looking at doing? Its already had the twin patch conversion. 

Does anyone have any pictures they could post or email showing the routing of the continuous kicker system once it gets back into the cockpit? I did find an old thread in which someone had posted pictures but the images have been deleted now, so any help much appreciated

Cheers

Dave




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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/



Replies:
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 2:45pm
I've also just bought a 200. I've been trawling the web for cockpit photos that show the layout and had little success....

....anyway back to your continuous kicker. The 4th pic in this link shows the non-continuous arrangement.

http://www.rs200sailing.org/index.asp?selection=Coaching&Fleet=RS200&subsect=Rigging%20Guide - http://www.rs200sailing.org/index.asp?selection=Coaching&Fleet=RS200&subsect=Rigging%20Guide

The continuous arrangement obviously needs a loop of rope joined with a splice. The routing is the same except that the control line exits one cleat on the thwart, passes over the center board case and goes back down the opposite cleat. Mine passes through a small fairlead on the C/B case located in the gap between the ratchet block and the thwart, this keeps things tidy. I try and keep the splice positioned so it doesn't  go through blocks or cleats when used (along side the CB case) 

I ain't no expert on 200s though.



Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 2:54pm
Thanks for the pictures, some useful info in there.

Is it as simple as that, just splice the rope together. I was expecting there to be something nice including elastic and extra blocks on the edge of the cockpit to keep it tensioned :)

Cheers

Dave


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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 2:57pm
Take the mainsheet cleat off, I'm sure you won't need it. Also run the mainsheet outside of the boom for less friction (make sure it's covered by a piece of material though).

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: marke
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:03pm
Dave

Its pretty much just a splice - you'll need a couple of rings to hold the loops out to the edge of the thwart so you can grab the rope and something to keep it getting it sucked into the mainsheet block (I just have a shockcord loop for it to run through).  The tricky bit is getting the rope the right length - it needs to be just long enough with the controls (I have continuous kicker and downhaul on mine) in the furthest "off" position.

Some other things that I found useful on my RS200
- get rid of the mainsheet cleat
- keep the forestay/jib tack area really neat to stop the kite catching (I use a small stainless D-link shackle - (see http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/bimbles/rs200-bimbles/) and an elasticated forestay to keep that tight)

That's it - just get out and sail it.

Mark


Posted By: jharvey
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:58pm
Our 200 is at home so i can try to take a photo of the setup we have later (assuming it isnt too dark when i get home).

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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by jharvey

Our 200 is at home so i can try to take a photo of the setup we have later (assuming it isnt too dark when i get home).

Sorry to highjack the thread but how do you hold the main tack down? I have the velcro strap around the mast. What stops this sliding up toward the downhaul eye?.....just a piece of string?.


Posted By: jharvey
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:50pm
I havent had it very long (so dont take this as the best answer) but we dont use anything
Just slide the strap around the mast down a bit once everything is rigged and the friction keeps it there.
If its light winds with loose outhaul and no cunningham then i guess it isnt a problem since you dont want much luff tension.
If its windier and the outhaul is pulled on and some downhaul it seems to stay where you leave it (for me).
 


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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by jharvey

I havent had it very long (so dont take this as the best answer) but we dont use anything
Just slide the strap around the mast down a bit once everything is rigged and the friction keeps it there.
If its light winds with loose outhaul and no cunningham then i guess it isnt a problem since you dont want much luff tension.
If its windier and the outhaul is pulled on and some downhaul it seems to stay where you leave it (for me).
 


Surely you have to have something for the main halyard to pull against as main halyard tension and cunningham do different things to the sail.


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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 6:28pm
Thanks for the tips guys, definitely pointed me in the right direction.

I'm looking forward to seeing the pics if you get home and its not dark :)

Thanks again

Dave


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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 7:25pm
Don't have mine any more to photograph, but if i remember correctly, my continuous kicker led thru a couple of stainless curtain rings attached to the black plastic grab-rails. Brings it out and to hand when hiking. Then I think there was another on the centreline as stated above.

Measure carefully and allow for the amount of rope doubled up in the splice. Better too long than too short. I used Excel Control and followed the Marlow YouTube splicing video - makes a pretty much invisible splice.

For the tack, rather than the strap, try making up a rope shackle with a spliced loop at one end and bobble on the other. Lead thru the cringle, around the mast and toggle together. I never bothered with a tack tie-down - the sneaky pig (cunning-ham, groan) does that job fine.

Whilst bimbling, I used to find the boom jumps off the gooseneck in a gybe when the kicker is off and the wind light. Cure with a slim split pin that goes thru a hole drilled in the boom and into another in the gooseneck post.


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: jharvey
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 8:03pm
This is a photo of one side showing the eye that is attached to the grab rail. The rope goes across just in front of the mainsheet block.



Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 8:17pm
Aha, I see, thank you for taking the time to do that

Cheers

Dave


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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 7:13am
In my old 200 I routed the continuous kicker from the cleat to a ring attached to the grab rail (like the pic above, then over the front of the thwart, back up behind the thwart, through a little fairlead mounted between mainsheet block and back of thwart and then under thwart and over it and back to the ring on the opposite side. This keeps the long loop of excess rope out from under your feet a bit as I found that it washed back a bit when it was windy and I kept getting tied up in it!
Also remove mainsheet cleat.
Fit righting lines.
To keep the tack down run the cunningham up, through the normal larger eye, down round a pin that you add to the front of the boom and then dead end it after passing it through the bottom eye, that way when you pull the cunninghamon it also pulls the bottom down.
Definitely run the mainsheet outside the boom but support it for at least 80% of its external run, just duct tape some OHP slides under the boom to cover it.
Make sure that you dont have the original 8:1 kicker, you can change to a 12:1 using a cascade or 16:1 if you buy an extra triple (??) pulley.
Some people prefer 1:1 mainsheet, others a 2:1 so try both and see which you prefer.
You could fit a spinlock for the kite halyard if you still have the cam cleat.
Have you got a floating block behind the kite halyard cleat, you definitely need one.
You should also remove the tweaker line from the mast and you should route the kite halyard through the lower of the 2 mast pulleys, the tweaker line will inevitably fail when you dont want it to. If you only have the plastic gromet in the tweaker line hole then move the pulley from the upper hole to the tweaker line exit point.


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 7:55am
Thanks for the explanation of the tackSmile appreciated.


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 11:43am
Originally posted by GybeFunny

In my old 200 I routed the continuous kicker from the cleat to a ring attached to the grab rail (like the pic above, then over the front of the thwart, back up behind the thwart, through a little fairlead mounted between mainsheet block and back of thwart and then under thwart and over it and back to the ring on the opposite side. This keeps the long loop of excess rope out from under your feet a bit as I found that it washed back a bit when it was windy and I kept getting tied up in it!
Also remove mainsheet cleat.
Fit righting lines.
To keep the tack down run the cunningham up, through the normal larger eye, down round a pin that you add to the front of the boom and then dead end it after passing it through the bottom eye, that way when you pull the cunninghamon it also pulls the bottom down.
Definitely run the mainsheet outside the boom but support it for at least 80% of its external run, just duct tape some OHP slides under the boom to cover it.
Make sure that you dont have the original 8:1 kicker, you can change to a 12:1 using a cascade or 16:1 if you buy an extra triple (??) pulley.
Some people prefer 1:1 mainsheet, others a 2:1 so try both and see which you prefer.
You could fit a spinlock for the kite halyard if you still have the cam cleat.
Have you got a floating block behind the kite halyard cleat, you definitely need one.
You should also remove the tweaker line from the mast and you should route the kite halyard through the lower of the 2 mast pulleys, the tweaker line will inevitably fail when you dont want it to. If you only have the plastic gromet in the tweaker line hole then move the pulley from the upper hole to the tweaker line exit point.

Thanks for the detailed information. I can see I've got a busyy weekend ahead off me :)

Much appreciated everyone whos helped

Dave


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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 10:48am
Update...

I got the boat on the water for the first time yesterday (after finding and repairing a hole in it which i didn't know about, and wasn't pointed out to me when i bought it) and the continuous kicker works great.

I've uploaded some pics showing what I did in the end if anyone interested

http://coastwatersports.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/rs200-continuous-kicker.html" rel="nofollow - http://coastwatersports.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/rs200-continuous-kicker.html


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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 6:07pm
I'm not entirely sure that the use of a turning block is class legal, although having had a quick look at the rules I can't actually see anything that forbids it.
 
Can anybody clarify, please.  I'm interested anyway because I'm about to convert our boat.


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 6:44pm
Really? I hadn't thought of that, my last 5 boats were 14's so you could pretty much chuck anything you wanted on them, so it never crossed my mind. I cant imagine that it could be deemed as a competitive advantage, but who knows... 




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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 7:08pm
That said how are you supposed to return the rope if you cant use blocks?

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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by jaydub

I'm not entirely sure that the use of a turning block is class legal, although having had a quick look at the rules I can't actually see anything that forbids it.
 
Can anybody clarify, please.  I'm interested anyway because I'm about to convert our boat.



Here's the bit that may prohibit this mod:

4.4 No additions, alterations or repairs may be made to the “RS One Design” unless specifically authorised by 
individual class appendix. 


I haven't checked the 200 appendix so it may mention in there that it's OK, if not, it aint I guess.


Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 7:17pm
I believe you either have to use plastic or stainless steel rings attached to the grabrails with thin line.
 
A bit archaic, but that is what you get with the kicker conversion kit from LDC.
 
As I say, I can't see anything in the rule that specifically says you can't do what you have done.
 
However, why would everybody use rings if blocks are allowed?
 
Hopefully, somebody more knowledgeable than me will be along in a minute .........


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 8:45pm
You'd need to check with the class rules rep. but I imagine that most probably use rings etc because the continuous loop isnt under load and therefore doesn't require the bearings in a block to let it run. In other words your fix is an expensive way to do it.


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 9:51pm
RS200 rules - "1.3.20 The order of reeving and the termination of control lines is optional the lines may be lead to
handles, bushes, eyes or small stowage bags, simple elastic take-ups are permitted provided they are
incorporated under the thwart moulding"

I think you're in trouble!

Ian


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Ian29937

I think you're in trouble!

lol, do you think I'll get locked up Big smile


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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by Ian29937

RS200 rules - "1.3.20 The order of reeving and the termination of control lines is optional the lines may be lead to handles, bushes, eyes or small stowage bags, simple elastic take-ups are permitted provided they are incorporated under the thwart moulding"

It doesnt say that they can lead to rings either, which are what is supplied by LDC. with their off the shelf system.

Surely a block is a glorified ring anyway, but you're right, it isn't an eye or a bush or a handle.

Anyway, its a nice solution, my son, who I bought the boat to sail with, is only 5 so i won't be going to any open meetings or nationals in the foreseeable future, and when i do, if someone who hasnt got anything better to do wants to make a fuss about it then i'll swap them over for some 'rings' for that event. I know rules are rules, but if I was adding a few inches to the height of the mast or adding extra purchase to the rig or something that mattered then fair enough, but all i'm adding is a couple of blocks, which are extra weight, and all they do is route the loose ends of some controls around a corner :)

Sorry, rant over Smile





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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 10:39pm
No, I think it's corporal!


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 10:40pm
oh sh*t, I'm off down the dinghy park now Wink

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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 10 Jun 13 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by CoastWaterSports

I cant imagine that it could be deemed as a competitive advantage

If there is no advantage why did you do it?


Posted By: CoastWaterSports
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 8:04am
it looks tidy

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-- Dinghy Chandlery - Axminster --

http://www.coastwatersports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.coastwatersports.com/


Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 9:02am
Originally posted by CoastWaterSports

it looks tidy

Good answer Clap



Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 9:04am
Originally posted by MattK

Originally posted by CoastWaterSports

I cant imagine that it could be deemed as a competitive advantage

If there is no advantage why did you do it?

Pimp rule 101 that surely Big smile


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RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 9:34am
Originally posted by Neptune

Originally posted by MattK

Originally posted by CoastWaterSports

I cant imagine that it could be deemed as a competitive advantage

If there is no advantage why did you do it?

Pimp rule 101 that surely Big smile

....oh yes, I know that rule. Thumbs Up

and in this case, if the boat is not class raced, worth experimenting with.......and it does look tidy.





Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 1:16pm
One of the few bits on my 400 that is working properly is the continuous kicker and cunningham.
It's routed to blocks on the grap rail, with elastic under the thwart to take up the slack.
The neat bit about it is you can pull a big handfull of kicker on and it will cleat the other side too, so you don't have to worry about cleating the kicker when you dump it at the windward mark.
It's also important that the kicker is not too long when dumped.


Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 1:20pm
There is a rule preventing the introduction of blocks into any system unless it is a permitted mod IIRC. (technically, using a block on the end of the gybing strop is not class legal, but many people do)
 
This is partly to keep the systems simple (it's a SMOD, and the rules allow the systems work well as they are), avoiding the risk of introducing illegal extra purchases, and in this case, it's also practical. If the kicker is uncleated on the wrong side, the temptation is to pull it on through the takeaway block, and so force the grab rail (which is not designed for this) to part company from the hull...


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 2:32pm
The grab rail takes far more force when it's used as a grab rail.
The LDC supplied continuous system also has blocks in it, at least on the 400.


Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

The grab rail takes far more force when it's used as a grab rail.
The LDC supplied continuous system also has blocks in it, at least on the 400.
Just think of the direction of the load between the two scenarios...
 
Trust me, first hand experience!
 
EDIT - if you pull the kicker on from the 'wrong' side you also have a 2:1 purchase on the grab rail, so the load might be larger than ou think.
 
And, yes, the 400 does have blocks, but it's 'same same but different'


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 8:31pm
I think I'd rather find out the grab rail is not soundly secured by pulling on the kicker than when I'm using it to get back in the boat!
My blocks are secured to it using little loops of 1mm or so dyneema, these will probably break well before the screws let go.
As you say, we digress, the 400 is a bit different.
But if you can make it so you can cleat the other side, it's a plus in my book.
You pull  both sides of the loop and it takes the slack out of both sides.


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 11 Jun 13 at 11:05pm
The RS rules are based around controlling variation from the boat RS supply. If they supply the 400 with blocks as part of a continuous system, by definition it is legal. But is this also true of the 200? Different boat, different rules...


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by hum3

Originally posted by RS400atC

The grab rail takes far more force when it's used as a grab rail.
The LDC supplied continuous system also has blocks in it, at least on the 400.
Just think of the direction of the load between the two scenarios...
 
Trust me, first hand experience!
 
EDIT - if you pull the kicker on from the 'wrong' side you also have a 2:1 purchase on the grab rail, so the load might be larger than ou think.
 
And, yes, the 400 does have blocks, but it's 'same same but different'

hum3: Pulling from the wrong side doesn't give you an extra purchase. It would just be a turning block. There's no advantage to doing this, other than being able to cleat the rope if you forgot, which you can do with a ring.   


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

I think I'd rather find out the grab rail is not soundly secured by pulling on the kicker than when I'm using it to get back in the boat!
My blocks are secured to it using little loops of 1mm or so dyneema, these will probably break well before the screws let go.
As you say, we digress, the 400 is a bit different.
But if you can make it so you can cleat the other side, it's a plus in my book.
You pull  both sides of the loop and it takes the slack out of both sides.

Totally agree that being able to pull from the other side is an advantage when you've forgotten to re-cleat. However, the 200 grab rail just won't take the load. 

Putting a ring on you can still pull enough tension into the leeward side to cleat it. But you then must use the windward side to set the kicker. I'd discourage anyone from putting blocks on just as they might be tempted to try and set the kicker from the wrong side, ripping a few screws out in the process. 

I doubt anyone would ever protest though, i certainly wouldn't. But why bother taking the risk for something which is heavier, more expensive, has to performance advantage, and could damage your boat?


Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by hum3

Originally posted by RS400atC

The grab rail takes far more force when it's used as a grab rail.
The LDC supplied continuous system also has blocks in it, at least on the 400.
Just think of the direction of the load between the two scenarios...
 
Trust me, first hand experience!
 
EDIT - if you pull the kicker on from the 'wrong' side you also have a 2:1 purchase on the grab rail, so the load might be larger than ou think.
 
And, yes, the 400 does have blocks, but it's 'same same but different'

hum3: Pulling from the wrong side doesn't give you an extra purchase. It would just be a turning block. There's no advantage to doing this, other than being able to cleat the rope if you forgot, which you can do with a ring.   
 
Um... it does [EDIT -  does give extra purchase. Agree it gives no advantage, unless you enjoy pulling the grab rail out of your boat!]
 
Perhaps not while there is no load in the rope, but once you load everything up, and the kicker end becomes 'fixed' you have a 2:1 purchase on the grab rail.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 2:53pm
Oops, sorry. My mistake, i thought you were saying it gives a extra 2:1 of kicker system purchase. I see now what you're just actually saying it gives a 2:1 purchase on pulling the screw out, which is spot on. 


Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 3:03pm
No worries - you're not the muppet who pulled the grab rail off on the last day in Garda a few years ago (through the exact process described above), and then proceed to suck the kicker tail into the ratchet block half a dozen time (still don't understand how that happened), which meant that my crew had physically pull the main sheet back through the block to let the main out at the windward.
 
Q sailing past the leeward gate, back home to Riva... :-(


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 3:20pm
Nothing like a road journey to Garda to loosen all the fasteners...


Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Nothing like a road journey to Garda to loosen all the fasteners...
 
Or just red mist, pulling something with more 'vigour' than the design spec qualified.
 
(There you go kids - have that as a double entendre open goal...)



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