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On Mast Movable Sails

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1077
Printed Date: 08 Dec 19 at 6:14pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: On Mast Movable Sails
Posted By: Phat Bouy
Subject: On Mast Movable Sails
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 5:25am
I've been tossing this around for a while; what about a 16-17' fairly high performance dinghy designed so that the mainsail is a double skinned affair, basically an air pocket. The majority of the pocket would be in a"wing" between 6 and 10' long and would slide side to side either by electric power or by the crew using the mainsheet and either tacking or gybing across the wind. The cunning stunt here is to fill this pocket with super-saturated hydrogen gas. This would have the effect of dropping the CG of the boat to below the water line. This would eliminate the need for "trapeze" wires and according to my detailed calculations, the toe-straps could go as well and the crew would not need strapping down or up. The effect would be that the boat will always be upright and therefore at the optimum sailing position.

There would be a deep daggerboard (non-retractble) with lots of weight in it- and the ends of the wing would contain gas cannisters for replenshing the "pocket" in the "wing" therby helping to "prevent" a semi-permanent capsize. The hull would be fairly narrow and the wing would pivot for trailering or stowage.It would have a spinnaker... oh and some of the gorgeous sparkly stickers and probably a rudder as well.

These are pictures of an rc model with such a system on it:

http://www.cupid_stunt.com/pikchures/c_s_01.jpg

http://www.cupid_stunt.com/pikshures/c_s_02.jpg

The concept is to allow high performance without the physical requirements of actually sailing in order to open up the thrill of performance dinghy sailing to people that for whatever reason don't want to or physically can't hike or use a trapeze.

I'd really like to hear comments... (no, not really!!)



Replies:
Posted By: a_stevo
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 5:32am

http://www.moth.asn.au/news/wa_2001_nov.html - http://www.moth.asn.au/news/wa_2001_nov.html   -double skin sail

By the way, you are joking arent you? i really hope so.



Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 7:21am
It's not April the first today is it??????????

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Marine Boy
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 8:28am
I just hate that feeling when one minute you start reading a post then the next you're lying on the floor in a pool of wee...oh please stop it !


Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 8:37am
Anyone else think there's some similarities here?
Originally posted by Doug Lord

I've been tossing this around for a while: what about a 16-17' fairly high performance dinghy designed so that the skipper sits down in it like a mini 12 but with a difference: the majority of ballast would be in a"wing" between 6 and 10' long and would slide side to side either by electric power or by the crew using a "bicycle winch":leg power moves the weight(weight about 170-200 pounds). The whole wing would move side to side along with a weight sliding on it so the CG of the movable weight could get up to 8' or so from the CL of the boat.The wing would be supported by "Trapeze" wires. The wing and the crew seat would be somehow tied together so that the crew could slide aft as necessary and/or the boat would be equipped with a rudder t-foil.
There would be a deep daggerboard(retractble) with some weight on it- and the ends of the wing would contain buoyancy pods to help prevent a permanent capsize.The hull would be fairly narrow and the wing would pivot for trailering or stowage.It would have a spinnaker...
These are pictures of an rc model with such a system on it:
RTE_textbox.asp?mode=quote&POID=27358&ID=1125" http://www.microsail.com/pictures/m24c5.jpg=" - http://www.microsail.com/pictures/m24c5.jpg

RTE_textbox.asp?mode=quote&POID=27358&ID=1125" http://www.microsail.com/pictures/m24c6.jpg=" - http://www.microsail.com/pictures/m24c6.jpg

The concept is to allow high performance without the physical requirements of most dinghies in order to open up the thrill of performance dinghy sailing to people that for whatever reason don't want to or physically can't hike or use a trapeze.
I'd really like to hear comments...
=================
Edited to try to determine why the url's here are "live" and the one on my last post is not...


Originally posted by Phat Bouy

I've been tossing this around for a while; what about a 16-17' fairly high performance dinghy designed so that the mainsail is a double skinned affair, basically an air pocket. The majority of the pocket would be in a"wing" between 6 and 10' long and would slide side to side either by electric power or by the crew using the mainsheet and either tacking or gybing across the wind. The cunning stunt here is to fill this pocket with super-saturated hydrogen gas. This would have the effect of dropping the CG of the boat to below the water line. This would eliminate the need for "trapeze" wires and according to my detailed calculations, the toe-straps could go as well and the crew would not need strapping down or up. The effect would be that the boat will always be upright and therefore at the optimum sailing position.

There would be a deep daggerboard (non-retractble) with lots of weight in it- and the ends of the wing would contain gas cannisters for replenshing the "pocket" in the "wing" therby helping to "prevent" a semi-permanent capsize. The hull would be fairly narrow and the wing would pivot for trailering or stowage.It would have a spinnaker... oh and some of the gorgeous sparkly stickers and probably a rudder as well.

These are pictures of an rc model with such a system on it:

http://www.cupid_stunt.com/pikchures/c_s_01.jpg

http://www.cupid_stunt.com/pikshures/c_s_02.jpg

The concept is to allow high performance without the physical requirements of actually sailing in order to open up the thrill of performance dinghy sailing to people that for whatever reason don't want to or physically can't hike or use a trapeze.

I'd really like to hear comments... (no, not really!!)



Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 6:08pm
Can't spot any similarities at all 

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 6:43pm
It would have a spinnaker... oh and some of the gorgeous sparkly stickers and probably a rudder as well.


BWUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


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Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 7:23pm

You might laugh, you boys, but I don't think it's a silly idea...... The boat design would have to be carefully planned, though. I think a smaller hull of more even dimensions could work. Similarly, the sail wouldn't look quite like the traditional dinghy sail, but adopt a looser silhouette depending on weather conditions. 

One detail I don't see working: the gas canisters... Pffft, that's a bit unpredictable, innit? What about a calorific device set at the bottom of the sail? The pressure would be such that no mast would be any longer needed...  

The crew would indeed adopt a more relaxed view of sailing and, in good days, move into another dimension!

Ohhh I can hear you laughing, but it's been done before! Check this converted dinghy running gracefully on a French river :

http://www.funandsky.com/prestation/photos/1200dpbateaux001.jpg - http://www.funandsky.com/prestation/photos/1200dpbateaux001. jpg

 



Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 7:24pm
Oh and PS: When it comes to sparkly stickers and pretty colours, the sky's the limit!!


Posted By: Phat Bouy
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 8:45pm
One detail I don't see working: the gas canisters... Pffft

Ah, well, yes, no, yes now you see I've spoken to the British Oxygen Corporation (BOC) and at great length. They assure me that their gas would go with a might woooooosh not at all like a damp squib of a pffft. Definitely a might woooosh - hang on, it might have been a wooooom. Oh Lord, I'm not entirely sure - I'll get back to you in this, well just as soon as I can get some more change for the telephone box and they only let me out on Tuesdays. Are but then I wouldn't have enough for the light meter - I'll get back to you next week!


Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 9:38pm
Thanks phat bouy, i am very interested in this idea. how much do you think one of these splendid boats would cost when they come into production or are you only going 2 produce it for yourself?

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Jp Indoe
Contender 518
Buzz591
Chew Valley Sailing club
Bristol


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 10:12pm

Not a boat for smokers, then? Light that fag to see which way the light wind is blowing, and BOOM! You could take out 1/2 the fleet.

On the other hand, Helium could be used on boring light wind days as entertainment...



Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 10:20pm

Yeeeha! Let's ask Mark Jardine to link this string to the Singing in your boat thread... Can you upload .wav files on this forum ??  LOL



Posted By: Phat Bouy
Date Posted: 04 Oct 05 at 10:43pm
It woule be very wrong for me to keep it to myself. So what I did was to speak to my friends in the RYA Scalability department.  Funnily enough, that was a long convsersation too, and now I'm totally in the dark as I have run out of money.

I dunno about Singing or Singeing In My Boat but I do hear a lot of voices in my boat, hmmm, it's entirely possible that they could be singing? What's that Skippy? The Ozzies lost the Ashes??


Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 2:31pm
I thought of something similiar. If you sealed a moth hull and filled it with helium, would it foil earlier?

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Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 2:37pm
it might, but only marginally i think, im not sure just how it would be completly efficient in all feilds, but i think the best way to find out is to try, but dont moths by class rules, require a breather valve????

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Oct 05 at 4:08pm

If you are going to fill a boat with helium, you may as well make the hull light enough that only the foils are left in the water once the helm is on board. No worries about hull shape, either, then, or stiffness, particularly, so long as the foils are supported...I think the RYA may suggest joining the Balloon association, though, instead of them!



Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 1:16pm

Brainiac tested a similar theory with posting helium around the world and it only saved about 8p on postage to the USA (or Australia, I forget).



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Graduate 2157, Laser 147050


Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 1:28pm

You'll be able to tell when someone's helium filled Moth is leaking as they shout 'Starboard' at you in a very high pitched voice!

What a great thread!



Posted By: a_stevo
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 1:36pm
i cant believe this thread actually degenerated into a propper discussion.


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 1:40pm

indeed

however it would be most amusing to see in real life



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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 06 Oct 05 at 8:06pm
well does have a smaller particle radius then the atoms and molecules in air, and even air seeps at times from bouyancy bags so id have expected helium to escape quite nicely... chemistry lesson for the day over children

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.



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