Back to Basics - Tacking.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10768
Printed Date: 16 Apr 24 at 10:38pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Back to Basics - Tacking.
Posted By: G.R.F.
Subject: Back to Basics - Tacking.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 12:30pm
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As you have been made very aware over the course of my ramblings, never having had any formal 'how it is supposed to be done' training, I'm beginning to wonder if there is more I should be doing with this tacking business, so, following a link from the hints and tips bit of a Dutch EPS site, I pitched up on the Rooster hints and tips where the following is written.. The key to the efficiency of the tack is in the first stage.
The luff to head to wind. 
Now to begin our tack, we must not repeat not push the rudder!!!!! So how do we get the boat to begin the tack? Simply over trim the main sheet slightly, under sheet the jib slightly, and if needed, a tiny, repeat tiny bit of leeward heel. The center of effort of the sails has moved back behind the hulls pivot point and the boat now will naturally wants to begin to luff to windward. As the boat progressively sails closer and closer to the wind, there are more things to consider: The problem obviously is it's written for a boat with two sails and mine only has the one, so my question is a simple how do you get the boat to enter a tack without moving that wiggle thing and more important to my case down the lake, speed out of the tack is where I get annihilated every time by my Laser driven nemesis. You don't have to tell me I'm doing it wrong, I'm clear on that, just talk me through how you do it once more, as if you would a retarded child please, no big words or silly terminology.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 12:35pm
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I'm sure Jon won't mind me linking to his youtube video on tacking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR6ec_nPWbw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR6ec_nPWbw .
Key is using bodyweight/trim to initiate the turn, not the rudder. Go and practice rudderless tacking to get a really good idea of what you need to do/not do. ------------- |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 12:42pm
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a bit of leeward heel should be all you need on flat water. You'll need to push it away if its wavy or choppy as you won't glide upwind through the "no go zone" If you are struggling out of tacks there may be several reasons. 1. Roll - big hike towards you just before you cross the boat so that you can roll it flat on the new tack 2. Heading on new tack - if you are using lots of rolla nd its light, you can exit on close hauled and get away with it, if its windy and/or no roll, you'll need to be anything from 10 to 25ish degrees free of close hauled, with an appropriate amount of sheet eased to enable the boat to accelerate without working the foils too hard. If you use a big roll and its light, even if you've settled on a close hauled course you'll need to ease a decent amount of sheet before the roll flat, only pulling it in at the end of the roll. Use your telltales! The laser 1 is a good boat for roll tacking, as good as anything this side of a firefly. Suspect the EPS, as many more modern boats may not lend itself so well to this subtle art. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 12:55pm
| ....bearing in mind where you are, try and do it on top of a wave. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 12:59pm
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This business of not using the rudder to tack is not the same as not pushing the tiller away. If you think about it, if the boat is turning but the rudder straight, it is effectively acting as the very break you are trying to avoid by pushing it across too early, and is trying to force the boat back onto a straight line. The Rooster video (I think) also shows how flinging your weight to windward works like an iceskater inducing spin. I'd have to watch it again to get all the reasons again, but basically you are moving closer to the centre of the circle, and the boat pivots round you. I grew up roll tacking Fireflies, and in comparison the eps lacks rocker and has wings to slap the water, but they will still roll quite nicely once you have a bit of way on. The sheeting in only at the end of the roll flat is one that has an interesting reason - effectively, the wind is coming as a beam reach as you pull the boat flat, so you need to be sheeted out a little to get the forward drive. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 2:30pm
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Difficult to sheet in when you're already sheeted in as far as it will go, centrelined, this could be part of the problem, I do like to sail very high and often take big chunks out of the fleet because they sail what is to my mind to free, but going into a tack I'm obviously a bit slow and if I'm already sheeted in and on the rail so to speak, what is it I have to do, sheet out and let the boat heal to weather, will that be enough to carry it through without the rudder, I can see I might have to go and have a sail without actually racing, that'll be tedious.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 2:42pm
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Yes, you have to sheet out before the tack - how much depends on the weather and the boat, but is impossible to describe, anyway. At least by me. Yup, you have to get out there and play. Can be more fun than racing. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 3:48pm
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in the toppers, i was taught to heel the boat away gently about 10 degrees depending on the wind strength, and let the rudder follow, and keep your grip light. then, as soon as the front edge of the sail backs even a little bit, hold the rudder in place, and heel the boat towards you hard, as crossing sides. centralize when you're pointing in the right direction, then gently ease the boat flat, rather than just slamming it flat. ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 4:14pm
or in a musto/ 600 et all, keep it flat into the tack, heel it and you'll slow down too much and stall coming out the tack, so stay on the wire for as long as possible before you unhook then bound with effortless grace to the other side  ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 4:20pm
| I had a very interesting session tagging on the back of some junior coaching in my Contender. Light to medium winds he had us tacking and gybing using only heel to induce the turns. (GRF I didn't think many mono sail boats went upwind too well fully centrelined, anyway be that as it may) We were simply dropping the tiller extension, sheeting a little harder and leaning in a little to induce the turn, with the rudder free to do it's own thing it demonstrated perfectly the path of least resistance as it followed the boat through the turn. Not quite so easy but gybing was induced in a similar fashion, only this time easing the sheet and hiking harder for heel to windward and bear away into a gybe. The coach had us doing these exercises in a very tight area and in quick time. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 4:22pm
Really? No honest, I'd really like to see that Neppy old chum, I once managed a wire to wire in the Musto, it was so sweet I had to frame it... Once the only time, the rest I spent ironing.  ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 4:24pm
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robin34024 that is top desciption of the teckers that took me several seasons to figure out on my own sailing lasers at club level. Ahh the value of wisdom passed on, versus the stubborn unwillingness to take advice. ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 4:42pm
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Good tacking is about getting your footwork right. That's because where your feet go your bodyweight follows. You need to keep steps across the boat to a minimum, and learn the trick of tucking a foot under the toestrap as you go so you can hike/flatten the boat as sson as possible. For practice secure the tiller down with bungee, so you're not using it and it can't move, but it's there is you need to grab it, then go through the moves as previously described. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 4:44pm
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I dunno, spend my entire life sailing without a rudder, so finally I get one, then spend 8 odd years, frigging about, trying to get to terms with it and all the rope that likes to get itself tangled around the infernal thing and now they tell you not to use it, you couldn't make it up really could you? Does beg the question why put the stupid thing on the back of the boat in the first place and learn to sail properly like we do using our feet..  ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 4:49pm
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[tube]XMDxvlETNTQ[/tube] ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 5:06pm
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Yes, show me someone doing that with just the one sail.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 5:07pm
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Here you go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ_SG5397FE&list=PL6D14C56C264E4B92&index=3
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 5:10pm
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heh, I was thinking of the Marco clip too! nice post!
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 5:28pm
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OK GRF - maybe you'll listen to advice for once....more signs of it than usual so far! The object of a good tack should be to make best VMG to windward. Sometimes that might ned a quick tack where loss and gain of speed is less important than being on the right tack, and sometimes it might be about making the tack as efficient as possible. But from a coaching point of view we need the latter. And as efficient as possible means the right balance between minimising the rate of deceleration, maximising the distance gained to windward in the tack, and accelerating to maximum speed as quickly possible. When I coach this I break it down in to 5 parts: The start/initiation. Much as described here. Sheeting, and heeling to get the boat turning at the right speed towards the wind with the minimum of additional drag. In practice that means following the turn with the rudder, but as stated not pushing it. The turn. Turn refers to change of course and rotation of the boat athwartships. Note that the act of turning the boat towards the wind will create a little more wind, and move the apparent wind aft as well. In many conditions this is what allows you to sheet out (which you need to do for a later stage). To maintain the right angle of heel (or flatness) in this stage it is usually necessary to move weight further in. Doing so may enable you to "sail" all the way to head to wind. The classic roll tack mistake is to sit out too early in the process. This should be the longest phase. The spin. As the boat reaches the point where it starts to come over to windward naturally it should be accelerated by moving crew weight to windward (this is the skater style bit). This phase should be relatively short and end with the boat on its new close-hauled course, heeled quite hard to leeward on the new tack. It again creates wind over the sails - but most importantly it primes the boat for The pull-up. In this phase crew weight crosses to the new side and flattens the boat of. It is relatively quick. The movement of the rig to windward again creates wind over the sails, and moves the apparent wind aft. So it is not yet time to sheet the eased main (and not yet fully tightened jib (if 2 handed)) back in. Save that for The drive. In which, as the boat accelerates, the sail(s) are pulled in, creating more wind again. In practice the drive begins before the end of the pull-up on most occasions. Now the great thing about this is that the long duration turn means you spend lots of time pointing to windward, therefore maximising the use from the speed you had at the start of the tack. And an efficient pull-up and drive returns you to your old speed quickly....and you remain legal. Here's the bad news GRF: you have a boat which stalls its foils easily. This makes it hard to get the rate of turn right so that you can accelerate without the foils having stalled. And as already pointed out - the wings mean that you can't mitigate the stall with a big pull-up and drive (like we do in the 300). If you do you'll hit the water. My advice would be to borrow something conventional (perhaps singlehand in a miracle - it roll tacks beautifully....) and learn the technique, and then apply it in the Equipped with Privy Seat. Finally if you are already in high and slow pointing mode it becomes much harder to initiate the tack and do the turn, because you don't have speed to take you to windward and the power on/off is very binary. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 5:30pm
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The Musto K16 video has a section on rudderless sailing with Sten making it look simple upwind and down wind with the kite too. edit found a youtube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXUoYAIrkR4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXUoYAIrkR4 ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 5:31pm
And there was me recounting the anecdote of a former world class board sailor, who when faced with prospect of racing a laser for the first time against the Mark Warner beach patrol, jettisoned the rudder, mainsheet and bridle and taught them all a lesson- Mano a Mano... standing up, proud and spectacular. Another 'tall story' from the short dude in the corner???? ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 8:57pm
 ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 9:05pm
OK this I have suspected, I've got a new type sail which may yet work better in light winds, but so far goes upwind worse, so.. 1)How do you know this. 2)What is the solution? i New foil (reshape)? ii Change mast rake ? iii move something else about? ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 13 at 9:08pm
Don't recall saying I didn't use the rudder, it fell off I remember that and I pulled the boom in by hand and won their little race by a suitably embarrassing (for them) margin though.. that bit was true.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 7:01am
Sideways around a centre point located in an area around/under the thwart. Of course if you bothered to learn to sail (including the vocab) then we could help you more easily. I would if I wanted to windsurf.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 7:51am
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If you really want an opportunity to re-examine your basic tacking technique then I would recommend doing a DI course. I did one 3 years ago and if made me re-examine my tacking technique completely and it has improved no end. Perhaps those people who came up with the RYA method were on to something..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 9:41am
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No need to do the DI course, Seamanship Skills would do. Matt, I do agree with grumpf about the complex terminology - there's no way you should use such terms with a beginner. Graeme, we have a training weekend at Whitefriars next weeknd - I beleive there's even an eps there - you would be very welcome to come and join us and we could soon sort you out. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 10:06am
Are you pimping yourself out again Nessa? ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 10:44am
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nope, think Rupert has this one covered.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 10:54am
 ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 11:48am
He might have a shock - it is primarily a training weekend for the CVRDA, Minisails and British Moths... Being beaten in a 7 minute race by a 1946 Merlin might be too much to bear! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 12:25pm
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i would pay to see that! ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 12:37pm
me too, hence the invite. Rupert has blown it for me by telling him it's a wood botherer's gathering. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 12:47pm
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and there was i thinking trolls liked the woods! ------------- |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 6:40pm
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You would have to frisk him for matches and lighter fuel... On the other hand if you tell him there'll be a bonfire that would guarantee attendance. (Oh dear - image has just popped up of a burning "wicker man" built from wooden solos, ancient merlins et al, with the head of a vertically challenged erstwhile windsurfer of this parish appearing through a hatch at intervals as GRF begins to get a little warm and tries tp jump out! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 8:07pm
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Well thanks for all that, and nessa I'll take a rain check on the wood botherers gathering, much as I'd love to destroy a bunch of flotsam and jetsom on the water and off, my lack of a toe bar prevents it, but, thanks to all the tips I've got lots of things to practise, not least I shall have a go at that sailing without the rudder, using my feet.
And yes I was been facetious about the unnecessary terminology, but you get the picture I trust, athwart ships ffs i know you did it deliberately.. Oh an thanks anyway, it's not wasted, loads of people read this stuff, and would never have skin thick enough to ask, cos everyone know y'all are stuck up yotti anoraks..
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 9:32pm
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GRF it's time, you've posted so many times, sailed so few (comparatively), but now, yes, don the rubber wear, rig up, wade out, and yes, just sail, don't race, just experience the joy that is a thoroughly satisfying, smooth and speed carrying, just enough roll without shipping water, let the sheet run through you fingers, back upright and change hands and sheeting on again and watching the telltails......tack It's jus practice |