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Playing the main

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10684
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 8:05am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Playing the main
Posted By: Mister Nick
Subject: Playing the main
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 5:41pm
I helm an RS500 and when it's windy (20 knots+) and gusty, I really struggle to play the main quickly enough to keep the boat upright. I find that when a big gust hits and I have to ease the main quite a lot,  I just can't pull it back in fast enough to prevent the crew getting dunked. I just find the boat heeling backwards and forwards all over the place. My hands get absolutely knackered and it just makes the boat so hard to sail. It's only going upwind where it's a problem, everywhere else I'm alright. 

I've tried changing the vang, outhaul and cunningham settings and that's helped but it hasn't solved the issue. I've also started bearing away a degree or so when I sheet back on after a gust has come through to get the boat going again, which seems to work but I'm not sure if that's the best/easiest way to do it? I haven't had this problem with any other boat that I've sailed.

Has anyone got any tips? Thanks! :)





Replies:
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 7:46pm
Never sailed an RS500. But my 2 pennies worth from a few others classes would be. Set your mast rake back (if you can in a 500), raise the board a little to move the centre of resistance aft and up and sail a bit freer and faster. Plenty of vang helps to make sheet loads easier in big winds because then main sheet only has to pull the boom in to change the angle of attack and not down to close the leech. 


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 9:18pm
Lots of Vang as suggest above. Also try to anticipate the gusts rather than reacting by having your crew look upwind and call them, should make the ride smoother.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 9:21pm
Are you allowed to give the crew the mainsheet? Its by far the best way to play if the class rules don't stop you.


Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 9:27pm
This is probably completely the wrong technique but on a Contender yonks ago this worked for me.  After the gust has passed, crack off a bit so you are not spilling so much wind and at the same time sheet in by taking coils of rope around your hand in a continuous movement and slowly harden up.  When you are back on track, cleat the sheet briefly to shakie out the unwanted coils. Oh, and wear gloves.


Posted By: RichTea
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 9:27am
I am not a fan of wrapping the main around the hand. It is a habit young sailors do when learning. You are not able to dump the main quick enough when needed and could end up bruising your hand.


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 10:48am
For me it sums up the frustration of sailing a SMOD. Simple changes would make the sailing experience much more enjoyable but when your stuck with the off the shelf equipment you have to compromise your sailing technique to deal with the inadequacies of the design.

Not adding anything to the above I guess just venting and its not targeted at the 500 itself just the whole concept of not letting people tinker with designs for the benefit of all.

Sorry

Ian


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RS300


Posted By: PhilHigh
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 10:49am

In a strong breeze we have found its very important to make sure you don't over sheet the Jib upwind.  This is very easily done in the 500 due to the fixed poisition of the Jib Cleats.  If its to tight the boat struggles in the gusts, if the jib is correct the boat flow and you need to play a lot less mainsheet to control it.  The difference is often only an inch or so out on the jib sheets. 



Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 1:12pm
I would suggest removing the cleat if possible? 

Maybe also gently luffing into stronger gusts and as it subsides bear away again if you're struggling with the loads


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Greatfully Sponsored By
www.allgoodfun.com
Int 14 GBR 1503!!


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 7:16pm
I am not a fan of wrapping the main around the hand. It is a habit young sailors do when learning.

It's also a habit the elderly pick up when their arthritic hands stop stop them grasping a rope properly! Not ideal, but it keeps us on the water.

And remove the cleat - you've got to be kiddingConfused


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 7:38pm
I am not much good in normal wind but do quite well when it blows. We all know that the rudder is a brake for "normal stuff" but my theory is when it's howling wiggling it doesn't have much effect because you are often overpowered. I find big quick sharp stabbing movement of the rudder let you react faster to the gust, so you steer in combination with easing and sheeting in. By doing both you don't need to do either one excessively. Heeling to windward as the gust hits is good but needs practice.



Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by PeterG

I am not a fan of wrapping the main around the hand. It is a habit young sailors do when learning.

It's also a habit the elderly pick up when their arthritic hands stop stop them grasping a rope properly! Not ideal, but it keeps us on the water.

And remove the cleat - you've got to be kiddingConfused

I used to wrap it around my hand until it broke a finger when I let the main out going around a top mark but it didn't unwrap from all my fingers. So if you have to just make sure it doesn't tangle a single finger


Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 9:05pm
on a topper, i used to wrap the kicker around my hand to let it off around the windward mark... until i got a fingernail torn off in the cam cleat. nasty...



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Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 9:43pm
I think the answer is in a lot of these posts. 
Main has to be playable, this means lots of kicker, more than you realise, use your legs to get the last bit on, and a lot of cunno. The main needs to be able to be played asap, with a small luff as you see the gust coming. The only boat I ever used the cleat on was the Laser5000. All others, including 4k and 400 no.
Rake  before you go out, as this will open the jib slot, which is often the key in windy weather. Otherwise you need to ease the jib so there is no back winding even when the boom is over the quarter. The issue is not to stall the flow in the slot in the gusts, and avoid the uncontrollably flogging main. This then just pulls you over, dumping does not work and sheeting in puts you in. If you do get that, the crew needs to let jib out to restore normal flow. They should be ready to ease in the gusts as well. Eventually you will find the happy setting, and because you have undisturbed flow, even in gusts you will start to really motor. Few people talk about the slot between the jib and the main when depowering, but its the key in most boats. A good, educated crew is worth their weight, and more.

Andy


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Andy Mck


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 7:52pm
Presuming the RS500 is not dis-similar to a V3000 (tho heavier and with more sail) - 

1) sail with rake in windy conditions, what you lose in shove you gain in height

2) luff up as you sheet out in each gust, remember the gust will cause the wind to come more over the beam so the sheeting out isn't only to depower it's to set the main correctly to the new direction of wind.  If you have a really good crew, they can ease the jib a little too.

As the gust passes, sheet back in, check your boat's angle to the wind and steer back into close hauled, gusts often prelude shifts, so close hauled may not be where it was!

=> sheet hand out => tiller hand out => sheet hand in => tiller hand in.  It gains you height on every gust, keeps the sails properly trimmed and keeps the boat flat too!

Don't over do it - over luffing will have your crew in the water.  Lots of small gentle movements.  

I was once in a race with Kit Stenhouse, who overtook me repeatedly, providing ample opportunity to watch how she swerved her MPS in gentle S-bends all the way across the reach and up the beat.  Poetry in motion.

Oh and giving the crew the main is a big help, but only if the crew is really good and you're both really well co-ordinated!


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Javelin 558
Contender 2574


Posted By: GYbin'Jones
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by JimC

Are you allowed to give the crew the mainsheet? Its by far the best way to play if the class rules don't stop you.
I've never heard of such a rule, are there many classes with this restriction?
 
And what's the point of the rule? Perhaps to prevent crew technique/teamwork upsetting an otherwise level playing field Wink.
 
Do any classes have rules which prevent the helm from trimming jib or spinnaker sheets?
 
For that matter, do any classes restrict the crew from taking the helm?
 
Nick.


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 3:08pm
Been watching the 18 foot skiffs on the net recently and been amazed by just how little the mainsheet is played, even with a man dedicated to the job. In a blow they seem to keep the boom planted outboard a bit and just steer through the gusts and the lulls. 

Is this typical skiff methodology? I must admit, on the 800 playing the main whilst steering and trapezing can git a bit of handful when it's gusty. Would be great to get the rig sorted in such a way I could just lay back, relax and wiggle the tiller every now an then ;-)




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Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 4:20pm
on the B14 we:
 
1) add more rake
2) use more kicker
3) use more cunningham
4) less board (about 4-5" up)
5) track down 5-8 degrees to plane upwind and play both main and jib
6) get the crew to call the bigger gusts and bring the boat higher and that should assist depowering, once through the gust go bow down and get planing again
 
of course it's different to everyone but the boom mounted main makes life ALOT easier to pull in


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RS400 GBR1321


Posted By: PhilHigh
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 4:51pm

It is not permitted in the 500 for the crew to take the main except in exceptional cirumstances(like when the helm falls out!) .  

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  Allows you a little time to make sure you are prepared for when it hits.  
 
If you head to any of the 500 events people are always happy to help people out and answer questions. 


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by PhilHigh

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  
I should probably know this by now but how do you know if it's lift or a header?


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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by ellistine


Is this typical skiff methodology? I must admit, on the 800 playing the main whilst steering and trapezing can git a bit of handful when it's gusty. Would be great to get the rig sorted in such a way I could just lay back, relax and wiggle the tiller every now an then ;-)



If the boats balanced and you premept the gusts then only small movements of tiller and main are needed. Its when your slow that you start having to ship huge amounts of the stuff and when your trapezing that its starts getting a coordination issue....its what i have found on the Musto and teh 600 before anyway


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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: JohnW
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by ellistine

Originally posted by PhilHigh

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  
I should probably know this by now but how do you know if it's lift or a header?

Look at the wave ripples in the gust.  
If they are travelling nearer the bows, then its a header. If they are more from the windward side then a lift.

Easier to say than do though.
 


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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:38pm
The ideal is to have the response of the rig automatic. So that as the gust hits the topmast bends off and at the hounds it moves to windward. 

 To do this you need to tune the sideways stiffness of the mast to your crew weight, by your spreader length. You want the rig to hold up sideways until you are at max power and then you want it to start to bend off at the top and up (slightly ) at the hounds, when the heeling force exceeds the righting moment.  This adjustment is quite sensitive and changes of 5-10mm in spreader length can be significant. 

Some boats will be closer to this 100% self adjusting ideal than others. Composite masts or top masts, and large roaches, will tend to make this easier to achieve. 

If you cannot get this auto-response from the rig the next best thing to do is to have 2 spreader length settings. One is used in winds up to 15 knots and the second, which is 15mm. shorter, is used above 15 knots. This has been found to be an effective route in classes such as the 505 where the rig profile is more conventional.


Posted By: PhilHigh
Date Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by ellistine

Originally posted by PhilHigh

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  
I should probably know this by now but how do you know if it's lift or a header?
As the gust approaches you can watch the line of wind on the water and see the angle it is appoarching. 
 
Here goes with a couple of diagrams(extreme examples).
 
|    Gust direction
V
-----------  Line of wind on water
 
^  Boat travelling upwind
|
 
So in this case the line of wind is going to hit square on the nose of the boat and the gust will be a massive header.
                                       |
   Boat                   ^       | <-  Gust Direction
   Heading              |        |
   Upwind                        |
                                  Line of wind on water

This time the line of wind is going to hit square along the side of the boat and will be a massive lift. 
 
 

 


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 12:42pm
Thanks John and Phil. I'll tell the wife she has to look out for what you described. She'll love that Wink

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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Feb 13 at 3:44pm
Of all the boats I've sailed, which is quite a few now, this, the RS500 was the most difficult. It has a very 'roachy' sail that doesn't depower very well at all, and neither the Gnav or downhaul seem to help much. In the end we opted for the sail it was apparently designed around and they added the big sail later which then became the standard. So when it was over 20 kts, the smaller sail worked OK for us.

Like they all say back there, judging what kind of gust it is helps, if it's a lift then luffing into it to begin with then ease the sheet if it's still over powering you. There's a stack of weather helm on the 500 anyway so luffing is never a problem.

The headers are your problem, they fool you into thinking there's more wind, which there is, but because it's a header you're likely to dunk your crew because the wind isn't side on enough to support him/her, you have got to bear off and ease the sheet then reacquire all pretty simultaneously and that boat is really awkward at doing that. As it is equally awkward sailing a tight fetch, there's just something about it, I didn't keep it long enough to find out really, but it's to do with the rocker and hull shape about a third back from the nose, never easily finds a sweet spot.


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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 25 Feb 13 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by PhilHigh

It is not permitted in the 500 for the crew to take the main except in exceptional cirumstances(like when the helm falls out!) .  


If you head to any of the 500 events people are always happy to help people out and answer questions. 

These dumb rules that RS impose on their boats to keep unsuitable pairings "competitive" ... and keep the sales up, presumably.  I believe it's supposed to stop people putting a gorilla on the wire who does everything but steer.  Surely you just put the gorilla on the tiller instead.  I don't know.  

Personally I'd only buy a boat that allowed me to sail it the best way possible.


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Javelin 558
Contender 2574


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 25 Feb 13 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

The ideal is to have the response of the rig automatic. So that as the gust hits the topmast bends off and at the hounds it moves to windward. 

Sadly, the RS500 (and the V3000 for that matter - I'm not being biased) have very stiff masts compared to the bethwaite boats (29er etc).  The RS 500 tries to compensate with a fatter head in the main, but it seems to cause people more trouble than help (lots of power up top).

Both classes would benefit from carbon masts ...or even a 29er style flippy top bit... but I don't see it happening for a few years yet.  We'll all have to learn to sail properly instead!


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Javelin 558
Contender 2574



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