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KazR View Drop Down
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Posts: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Leeward mark puzzle
    Posted: 22 May 16 at 7:17pm
Can I ask for some opinions on a situation that happened yesterday. I'll admit to not racing for quite a few years and being a bit rusty on the rules so not sure if. Was in the right or not.
Situation was a windy one sided run to the leeward mark. I was on rhumb line from last mark to the leeward behind a group of boats, everybody going pretty quickly. The group ahead swung wide to get a good rounding and were three in a line beam reaching towards the mark, with the first boat about to round. As far as I could see on my line the trailing boats must have sailed out of the zone and were now overlapped outside me by dint of their angle to the mark. I cut in right at the mark and rounded inside the third boat with much shouting telling me I had no room.
It wall happened a bit quick but was I ok to assume that since they swung out and must have sailed outside the zone 'cos there was three in a row with space between them and hence I could have room (albeit cheekily). To be honest there was no where else for me to go at that speed
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 16 at 8:07pm
Need sketches really, difficult to work out what you mean from a description. "The trailing boats must have sailed out of the zone" sounds a bit vague to me. If I were on a PC and someone said that I'd be thinking that they weren't very sure about what happened.

If they had left a big gap at the mark and you cheekily nipped through without anyone having to take avoiding action then that is legitimate: you don't need rights if you don't obstruct anyone. If, however, anyone changed course to avoid you then will need to look at the situation in detail.

There's almost always somewhere to go you know, even if its the wrong side of the mark...

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 16 at 9:08pm
Sounds like a bad idea to me. If you have no overlap, and a queue of boats is forced wide, you have no right to go inside. If a gap forms, you can go for it, but if it shuts in your face, bail out and chalk it up to experience.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 16 at 9:20pm
Did anyone formally object ?
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KazR View Drop Down
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Posts: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 16 at 9:47pm
Well as I saw it, if there were three boats sailing at the mark at right angles to me as I entered the zone and there was half a boat length between them then at least the last one must have sailed out of the zone and so I was overlapped inside as he re-entered the zone. As for going the other direction - even more impossible as starboard tackers going upwind were making a wall parallel to my course. If I went that way at full speed I would have sunk somebody
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 16 at 11:37pm
For a moment, forget the 'first two' boats, focus on the third, with which you had that incident.

What you seem to be saying is that, a boat, previously clear ahead of you, shied up for the mark and became overlapped outside you just before she reached the zone (for your argument, it is irrelevant how she got there, whether by sailing into, then out of the zone, or not previously being in the zone at all).  You were thus overlapped inside when the first of you reached the zone, and entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2( b ).

You seem to indicate that there might have been some doubt about whether the other boat was overlapped before she reached the zone.  Doubtless in a protest hearing the other boat would give evidence that she was not.

Rule 18.2(d) tells us that if there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

To resolve the doubt, you say that you saw three boats in line with half a boat between them [and saw that you were not clear astern of the third boat (couldn't see any of her transom:  is that what you would have said?)].

So it's up to the protest committee to decide whether there is doubt or no doubt.

If you talk about 'assuming' and a boat sailing into and out of the zone, you are muddying the waters, and raising doubt.

If you just say Boat 3 shied up for the mark and became overlapped outside me before either of us reached the zone, you would have a better chance.
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 16 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Rupert

Sounds like a bad idea to me. If you have no overlap, and a queue of boats is forced wide, you have no right to go inside. If a gap forms, you can go for it, but if it shuts in your face, bail out and chalk it up to experience.

You do have the right to go inside some of them, if that queue of boats extends outside of the zone.  The first boat that is outside the zone and overlapped with you as you or they enter it has to give you room.

18.1
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone


If they were in the zone but then left it...
18.2 (c)
..However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. 
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SteveB00 View Drop Down
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Posts: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SteveB00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 1:48am
I'm a bit late to this party, but having read the thread, the following occurs to me:

"I'll admit to not racing for quite a few years and being a bit rusty on the rules so not sure ..."

Yacht racing is chess with very expensive pieces. You MUST know the (current) rules.

Are you aware that the zone, which was two boat lengths "quite a few years" ago, is now three boat lengths? You seem to be assuming that three boats abeam of each other means the outside boat isn't in the zone. It could easily be.

Or am I missing something?

Steve  = : ^ )
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