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Individual recall-time limit |
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drifter
Posting king Joined: 09 Jun 08 Location: Oxfordshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 177 |
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Topic: Individual recall-time limit Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 9:58pm |
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Most unusually for me, I got called OCS on Sunday. The Race Officer shouted "Albacore" (which I was the only one)-no flag or sound signal so I just sailed on for nearly a minute, when suddenly the sound signal and flag went up. Obviously (and despite the drifting conditions) the 22 knot performance of my craft meant I was some distance from the line by then, and plenty traffic to leeward for the return. RRS say OOD flags "promptly" flags boats OCS. I was less than pleased. Anyone ever been here and got any satisfaction in the protest room?
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Stewart
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 10:21pm | |
CASE 79 Rule 29.1, Recalls:
Individual Recall When a boat has no
reason to know that she crossed the starting line early and the race committee
fails to promptly signal ‘Individual recall’ and scores her OCS, this is an
error that significantly worsens the boat’s score through no fault of her own,
and therefore entitles her to redress. Assumed Facts At the start of a
race for one-design boats, ten boats near the middle of the starting line were
slightly across the line at their starting signal. The race committee signalled
‘Individual recall’ by displaying flag X with one gun. However, these signals
were made approximately 40 seconds after the starting signal. None of the boats
returned to start, and several of them lodged requests for redress upon
learning after the race that they had been scored OCS. Question 1 In rule 29.1, what
does ‘promptly display’ mean? Answer 1 No specific amount of
time will apply in all circumstances, but in this rule it means a very short
time. A race committee should signal ‘Individual recall’ within a very few
seconds of the starting signal. Forty seconds is well beyond the limits of
acceptability. Question 2 Is it reasonable for
a boat to request redress because of a less-than-prompt individual recall
signal, even when she did not return to start? Answer 2 Yes. Question 3 Why should a boat be
given redress because of the committee’s failure to signal promptly, when the
rules say that failure to notify a boat that she is on the course side of the
starting line at her starting signal does not relieve her of her obligation to
start correctly? Answer 3 The rules do not say
this. Rule 29.1 obligates the committee to signal all boats that one or more of
them are on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal. Rule
28.1 and, if it applies, rule 30.1 obligate each boat to return to the
pre-start side of the line and then start, but this assumes that the signals,
both visual and sound, have been made. When a signal is not made or, as in this
case, when the signal is much too late, it places a boat that does not realize
that she was slightly over the line at the starting signal at a significant
disadvantage because she can not use the information the signal provides, in
combination with her observations of her position relative to other boats at
the time the signal is made, to decide whether or not to return to the
pre-start side of the line. Question 4 How can a boat that
fails to start properly be entitled to redress when rule 62.1 requires that her
score be made significantly worse ‘through no fault of her own’? Answer 4 A boat that has no
reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line at her starting
signal has the right to assume that she started correctly unless properly
signalled to the contrary. As Answer 3 indicates, a boat can be significantly
disadvantaged by a delay by the race committee in making the recall signal.
That error is entirely the race committee’s fault, and not that of the
disadvantaged boat. (See Case 31 for a discussion of appropriate redress in a
similar situation.)
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drifter
Posting king Joined: 09 Jun 08 Location: Oxfordshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 177 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 10:28pm | |
Thanks-that's very useful
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Stewart
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Andymac
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 10:26am | |
So given that drifter didn't 'start' correctly but was not aware of it (does a shout of 'albacore' by the race team really mean anything?).Assuming the race team can pinpoint a 'finish' time (assumption made that it was a handicap event).
What redress would be considered fair for a boat that never 'started' the race? I would suggest that drifters 'finish' position would have reasonably demonsrated their position had they 'started' the race but with some adjustment for a prompt return to start correctly, being added to their finish time. Whilst it may have only taken 15 seconds or so to return and restart, this could have put them in a less favourable position in the fleet with dirty air, rather than the clean jump start that they got. I would have though that perhaps redress could be given calculated on the 'finish' time plus say 30 - 60 seconds and no other boats positions affected by the redress. Alternatively, the Hayling Island model could be used . |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 10:59am | |
Missed the last line of the quoted Case 79 did we? <g>. "See Case 31 for a discussion of appropriate redress in a similar situation." Relevant bit from Case 31:
What's the 'Hayling Island model'?
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gordon
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 11:10am | |
Redress, if granted in a handicap race should be finishing time plus an allowance for the time to return and restart if the required signals had been displayed and sounded promptly.
30 seconds sounds reasonable. When redress is given this does not affect the scores of other boats unless the PC decides otherwise (rule A6.2) PS At least until the early 80's the default setting for recalls was to call out the "recall numbers" of OCS boats! |
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Gordon
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G.R.F.
Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 11:35am | |
Your lucky they even shouted Albacore, last time this happened to me, they tooted a 2nd gun, said nothing, even conversing with us on the way round, gave us a finishing signal, and then after I'd left had a bit of a conflab, decided we 'might' have been over and binned us. (We'd won by quite few minutes)
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gordon
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 12:06pm | |
It would seem that all the money spent on race official training has not trickled down to the clubs where members of this forum sail.
On my many trips to the UK (now a totally foreign country to the one I left in 1980) I have met many competent, keen and convivial race officials. Perhapsthey are not getting to your club. PS I never did believe in the trickledown effect anyway - it was mumbo-jumbo economics. Didn't think that race management would be another proof of it's inefficacity |
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Gordon
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jeffers
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 3:03pm | |
I believe you should have crossed the line to silence in that case. If they finished you then it puts them at a disadvantage should any protest/redress hearing be required. When a boat is OCS I do not give them a finish hoot but I always make a note of the time they finish just in case it is required for redress/protest purposes. The post from Brass answers the OP question perfectly. Hails mean nothing without the correct signals unless it is blatantly obvious the boat is over and they know it.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Andymac
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 12 at 3:29pm | |
Sorry Brass, didn't mean that to be a teaser. I was rather tongue in cheek trying to refer to an OCS (BFD) redress decision made at the Merlin Rocket nationals last year hosted at Hayling Island SC. Turned into a rather convoluted set of events with the redress decision eventually being overturned on appeal. Much discussed on this forum, can't seem to find any of the relevant threads for you. To recap; A boat challanged a BFD decision - having completed the race in 3rd position. Redress was given (but bizarrely) as an average points score for all races - it was quite early in the series. In the final race they were leading the championship and the 2nd overall placed boat expertly and legitimately sailed them down the fleet to give them 2 bad scores and thus lose the championship. One of the many discussion points (there was a lot of hot air about the whole affair) was why the redress awarded was average points, when there was a 3rd place finish position to be used. |
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