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Medal Race

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fudheid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Medal Race
    Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Nah - that's not how it works in club racing, in junior champs, national champs or anywhere.  The medal race is ultimately sh*te because it's contrived bolleaux that was meant to make thing easier to understand, but accidentally promoted defensive match racing.  Scrap it and if you must, have a non-discardable finals race.  Anything else is just meddling (lets make the dressage event more exciting, by buring a number of anti-personnel mines slightly off-line - miss your mark and there's dog food everywhere!). 

But it's not the nationals is it? sure there are nations taking part who don't have the funds to win a medal (  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19144983 ) but they won't be there at the end.
The point is there medal race is bolleuax as you put it as it encourages negative sailing.. the point is like all other sports at the olympics the preliminaries are there to take out the slower/weaker to leave the best to fight it out in a one off race/event.

dressage runs the same system points accumulated to get into  the final and then guess what. The final is just that the decider to see who performs best under pressure to take the medal
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gbrspratt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Nah - that's not how it works in club racing, in junior champs, national champs or anywhere.  The medal race is ultimately sh*te because it's contrived bolleaux that was meant to make thing easier to understand, but accidentally promoted defensive match racing.  Scrap it and if you must, have a non-discardable finals race.  Anything else is just meddling (lets make the dressage event more exciting, by buring a number of anti-personnel mines slightly off-line - miss your mark and there's dog food everywhere!). 


Isn't the point that it is just a non-discardable final race? which is rubbish! because you can sail someone down so they get high points instead of sailing for a podium. take out the ability to match race someone to the back and then you will have a real race. turning up and calculating how much you need to screw someone else up (although can be good to watch) ISN'T going out and winning a race. 

The Olympics isn't meant to make it easy. its meant to show you who the best is on the day. And if the "best" crumble due to fluky last day winds then they a clearly not the best?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by gbrspratt

Originally posted by Bootscooter

can't see it working at the Topper, Laser, 420, RS400, Oppie etc  National Champs, so why change the accepted format for sailing Champs for the sake of what?  TV rating? 
 
Not for me thanks..... may as way change football to 4 quarters of 25 mins, just to fit in with the TV advert breaks.
 
 
A proper champion is the one that comes out to in a variety of conditions, over a champ series. No need to change this.  If you're going to mess with sailing just for the olympics, why not have Reaching Races? Far more spectacular and fast?


they do change football though. they turn it from a league, to knock outs..... to make it more exciting.

Its not about changing the format the format is the same. you sail, you race and you win. if you don't win in the "MEDAL RACE" you don't win a medal! This is for the Olympic medal. this is meant to be high pressure. By averaging out and giving the chance to bank points for the final you are removing the pressure and the need to actually aim for that podium finish. if Percy sailed his own race and aimed for the podium he would have got it.
 
 
The knockout system is already in use in the Elliot 6 Match Racing....... and that's been a gripping televisual feast.   My mistake, it's added nothing to the excitment at all. 
 
Stop trying to invent "new" systems, and even "new" events and just accept that not everyone is going to enjoy watching sailing. I will never enjoy watching Synchronised Swimming, or any other number of sports, no matter what they do to try and attract me as a potential TV viewer (well, maybe there's a couple of things they could do Wink). 
What they shouln't be doing is altering their formats and playing areas to such an extent that it pishes of the true fans of Synchronised Swimming, and the competitiors, just in an attempt to get me, some fat get who'll never take part in the sport anyway, to watch it on the telly.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by gbrspratt

Originally posted by Bootscooter

Nah - that's not how it works in club racing, in junior champs, national champs or anywhere.  The medal race is ultimately sh*te because it's contrived bolleaux that was meant to make thing easier to understand, but accidentally promoted defensive match racing.  Scrap it and if you must, have a non-discardable finals race.  Anything else is just meddling (lets make the dressage event more exciting, by buring a number of anti-personnel mines slightly off-line - miss your mark and there's dog food everywhere!). 


Isn't the point that it is just a non-discardable final race? which is rubbish! because you can sail someone down so they get high points instead of sailing for a podium. take out the ability to match race someone to the back and then you will have a real race. turning up and calculating how much you need to screw someone else up (although can be good to watch) ISN'T going out and winning a race. 

The Olympics isn't meant to make it easy. its meant to show you who the best is on the day. And if the "best" crumble due to fluky last day winds then they a clearly not the best?
 
Beautiful. That's exactly what i would prefer.  My mention of the non-discardable race is a consession, or a compromise to ISAFs wish for a "viewer-friendly" spectacle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by fudheid


by fair do you mean fair to team GBR/...

Not something you'd say if you knew me.

You still (in other posts) seem to want to change the sport for the benefit of the viewer.  Above all else, I don't.

Think we're just going to have agree to disagree on this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:11pm
The marathon, triathalon etc don't do rounds to weed out the weaker teams. A one race final is too much of a lottery. Even that windsurfer dude didn't win every race, but he is clearly the best. You need a series to even out the elements of luck.

I still reckon the best compromise is a 9 race series with one discard, and then a single day with 4 short races that count double. So the final day is worth exactly half the result. Reduce it to the top 10 if you want, doesn't really matter. The important thing is that this way, going in to that last day EVERYONE involved is still in with a chance of a medal. It seems obvious to me that if you are racing in a medal race you should have a mathemtaical chance of winning a medal. The clue is in the name!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gbrspratt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Originally posted by gbrspratt

Originally posted by Bootscooter

can't see it working at the Topper, Laser, 420, RS400, Oppie etc  National Champs, so why change the accepted format for sailing Champs for the sake of what?  TV rating? 
 
Not for me thanks..... may as way change football to 4 quarters of 25 mins, just to fit in with the TV advert breaks.
 
 
A proper champion is the one that comes out to in a variety of conditions, over a champ series. No need to change this.  If you're going to mess with sailing just for the olympics, why not have Reaching Races? Far more spectacular and fast?


they do change football though. they turn it from a league, to knock outs..... to make it more exciting.

Its not about changing the format the format is the same. you sail, you race and you win. if you don't win in the "MEDAL RACE" you don't win a medal! This is for the Olympic medal. this is meant to be high pressure. By averaging out and giving the chance to bank points for the final you are removing the pressure and the need to actually aim for that podium finish. if Percy sailed his own race and aimed for the podium he would have got it.
 
 
The knockout system is already in use in the Elliot 6 Match Racing....... and that's been a gripping televisual feast.   My mistake, it's added nothing to the excitment at all. 
 
Stop trying to invent "new" systems, and even "new" events and just accept that not everyone is going to enjoy watching sailing. I will never enjoy watching Synchronised Swimming, or any other number of sports, no matter what they do to try and attract me as a potential TV viewer (well, maybe there's a couple of things they could do Wink). 
What they shouln't be doing is altering their formats and playing areas to such an extent that it pishes of the true fans of Synchronised Swimming, and the competitiors, just in an attempt to get me, some fat get who'll never take part in the sport anyway, to watch it on the telly.


but we're not trying to change the format. The format is the Olympics. the medal race should basically be a trophy race. and why on earth have they decided to chuck out the bottom 14 from the race? its either a medal race winner takes all after qualifiers or its regatta style all in averaged out at the end. and then to cap it off only the top 4 people going into that race could win a medal? if your in that final race you should be able to win it and come away with the glory!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gbrspratt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

 

Beautiful. That's exactly what i would prefer.  My mention of the non-discardable race is a consession, or a compromise to ISAFs wish for a "viewer-friendly" spectacle. 

then maybe we are on the same track after all? they seem to be putting to concepts together in a very bad way. it needs to be one or tuther?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:26pm
Quite. That's why I think the whole concept of the Medal Race is hoop.  It doesn't appear anywhere else in our sport and is an artificial input purely because ISAF want to suckle at the TV nipple.  Why bother?  To get more people interested in (and taking part in) the sport?
If they haven't got the patience to watch race 10 of a series, and the inteligence to work out that the Gold may go to the person lying 4th in that race, then what chance have you got of them enjoying a Wednesday night drift-a-thon in the local summer series?
 
I'm sat here watchin the Omniom (or whatever it's called). this is made up of 6 events, with points added together.  For some reason, the 6th event doesn't have a points system that allows any of the competitors to win overall.  Why not? Because that's not what the event is about - it's a series of events with combined scoring, just like a sailing series.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by fudheid


by fair do you mean fair to team GBR/...

Not something you'd say if you knew me.

You still (in other posts) seem to want to change the sport for the benefit of the viewer.  Above all else, I don't.

Think we're just going to have agree to disagree on this one.

not the benefit of the viewer i like to watch match racing as much as the next sailor, just slightly disappointed that the Brits decided the thing to do was to sail down the fleet ( ok so slinsgby as well).
I guess it's just not really olympic spirit is it? only 4 or 5 boats have a chance in the medal race and the gold goes to the guy who sailed his closest competitor to the back of the fleet and relied on others to sail badly?????

I'm not suggesting that Cowes week or the RS nationals change as the point is it is a 4 year special event.
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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