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Sailing Instructions interpretation...

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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 12 at 12:08am
Agreed Gordon - meant to say that earlier.

I did an appeal (similar wrongly applied out of time issue) as a youngster, with similar pressures.  Didn't benefit me...but changed the Nats result, and I am proud that I did it.  It changed my approach to and understanding of the rules.

BTW 20 minutes of coming ashore is not long.  If SIs said that I think I would have waterproof paper and a pencil in my BA, and write it before coming ashore!  Certainly the same in  plastic bag on the boat.  To me 20 minutes smacks of comedy event management.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 12 at 4:19pm

63.1 Requirement for a Hearing

A boat or competitor shall not be penalized without a protest hearing,

except as provided in rules 30.2, 30.3, 67, 69, A5 and P2. A decision

on redress shall not be made without a hearing. The protest committee

shall hear all protests and requests for redress that have been

delivered to the race office unless it allows a protest or request to be

withdrawn.

A5 SCORES DETERMINED BY THE RACE COMMITTEE

A boat that did not start, comply with rule 30.2 or 30.3, or finish, or

that takes a penalty under rule 44.3(a) or retires after finishing, shall

be scored accordingly by the race committee without a hearing. Only

the protest committee may take other scoring actions that worsen a

boat’s score.

RYA 1989/7

When a race committee believes that a boat has broken

a sailing instruction, it cannot disqualify her without a

hearing or deem her to have retired. The race or protest

committee must first lodge a protest against her, within

the time limit for doing so, and a hearing must then be

called.

RYA 1989/8

A race committee is not allowed to disqualify a boat

without a hearing, except under the Black Flag rule. A

race committee is not allowed to score a boat DNF for

failing to sail the course if she complies with the

definitions Start and Finish. A protest is needed.

RYA 2006/8

Unless otherwise specified in the sailing instructions, a

race committee has no power to disqualify a boat

without a hearing, or score her DNF if she finishes, if it

believes she has not sailed the course. Instead it must

protest her within the protest time limit.

Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 12 at 1:55pm
Basically, if the race committee think you didn't sail the correct course it is their responsibility to protest the competitor.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 12 at 3:49pm
No, it is not the responsibility of the race committee to protest a boat.
 

CASE 39

Sportsmanship and the Rules

Rule 60.2(a), Right to Protest; Right to Request Redress or Rule 69

Action

Except when it receives a report of a breach of a class rule or of rule 43 from an equipment inspector or a measurer for an event, a race committee is not required to protest a boat. The primary responsibility for enforcing the rules lies with the competitor.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 12 at 4:55pm
That's what the rulebook says. A party has the right to a hearing.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 12 at 5:03pm
Brass - The RC is not required to protest, but they cannot take action without a protest except in very limited circumstances.

As you rightly point out the PRIMARY responsibilty for enforcing the rules iswith the competitor. This does not mean that race officials have NO responsibility. There are circumstances in which a race official may protest. Which is why publishing clear policy of the circumstances in which a RC or PC will consider protesting makes things clearer for everyone.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 12 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by sargesail


BTW 20 minutes of coming ashore is not long.  If SIs said that I think I would have waterproof paper and a pencil in my BA, and write it before coming ashore!  Certainly the same in  plastic bag on the boat.  To me 20 minutes smacks of comedy event management.
 
As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong), you can lodge a protest in that time frame, and fill in the details later...
No need to hit the shore with a complete dossier prepared!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 12 at 1:52pm
Agreed Andy - but I would be able to write those essential details down when afloat.  Because it is all too easy to use up 20 minutes securing the boat on the trolley, dropping sails, pulling up the beach and then walking to the Club.

And some clubs still have a shocking attitude/understanding of their responsibilities to a competitor.

Having gone back to the OP here the bold call would have been to go ashore without sailing the extra lap, and then redress if scored DNF/DNC.  Easy to say with hindsight.

But there are far too many clubs which don't recognise that the RC can only DSQ for not failing to start or finish correctly (and that is the action of finsihing, not sailing the wrong course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 12 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by sargesail

But there are far too many clubs which don't recognise that the RC can only DSQ for not failing to start or finish correctly (and that is the action of finsihing, not sailing the wrong course.
My understanding is that in these variable lap-counting formats there is usually a SI that permits the race committee to determine the score/number of laps and changes rule rule A5.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 1:38pm
Here is an example of a note to competitors regarding Jury policy. As used at some ISAF events:

Sailing is essentially a self-policing sport. The jury expect that boats will take a penalty promptly when appropriate. The primary responsibility for protesting breaches of the rules is with the competitors, not the jury. However, in addition to taking action in accordance with Appendix P, the jury may lodge protests in accordance with RRS 60.3.


The jury will not usually protest for a breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless they observe an apparent breach of good sportsmanship (RRS 2). Examples of such breaches are:

deliberate breach of the rules without taking a penalty and gaining an advantage.

failing to take a penalty after knowingly touching a mark with no justification for exoneration.

intimidating other boats – often evidenced by unnecessary shouting or foul language.

team tactics – sailing to benefit another boat to the detriment of your own position.

reckless sailing – sailing that results in or is likely to result in damage or injury.



My advice to Sargesail - be totally without mercy. Everytime the RC disqualifies a boat, except as provided for in rule A5, redress should be requested, and if refused an appeal made.


Gordon


Gordon
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