Death Roll and how to avoid it...?

   Well actually isn't the standing up bit verging on rock star territory?  Especially in something like a Finn where a combination of induced roll, pump and hard bearing off all contribute to the physicality and technical challenge of the boat at the highest level?

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pondmonkey Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202	Post Options Post Reply Quote pondmonkey Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Death Roll and how to avoid it...? Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 7:34am
	Well actually isn't the standing up bit verging on rock star territory? Especially in something like a Finn where a combination of induced roll, pump and hard bearing off all contribute to the physicality and technical challenge of the boat at the highest level?

G.R.F. Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028	Post Options Post Reply Quote G.R.F. Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 8:36am
	Well for me, standing is obviously more akin to what I've spent most of my racing life doing, our boards can wobble a bit especially if we leave the plate down, off wind, you simply counter by bending the knees. The only issue, there's not much to hold onto, the wiggle stick doesn't provide much counter balance to the mainsheet, which is the only other stabilising do dah to hang on to, it does feel more natural though, but as you point out you do feel a bit 'rock star' tall poppy when all about you are seated. Would it in itself counter that death rolling though, I seriously doubt it, sheeting in does sound the best answer I've read here...
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sargesail Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459	Post Options Post Reply Quote sargesail Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 8:46am
	Standing makes it worse - the rig will still oscillate so you just add greater moment to it. (and you're in the way when the gybe comes!). Sheeting in is only one part of this equation - and its slow. And unless used at the right time in the right way may still make things worse.

maxibuddah Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760	Post Options Post Reply Quote maxibuddah Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 8:54am
	sarge, I know its slow but its a method for a beginner (and let's face in this respect grf is a beginner) to quickly and fairly simply stay upright. once he has got confident with that move onto the more advanced stuff as you suggested. the important thing with being or starting to sheet in is that you ate not running by the lee. if you are then it is likely you will inadvertently gybe and then swim, which is why I said that you will need to steer into it. one thought, is the EPS an unstayed rig or with shrouds?
	Everything I say is my opinion, honest

pondmonkey Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202	Post Options Post Reply Quote pondmonkey Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 9:29am


maxibuddah Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760	Post Options Post Reply Quote maxibuddah Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 9:46am
	that's all well and good Jimbo but wouldn't Graeme be better off learning the basics to get his confidence up with them then doing that. don't run before you can walk, unless of course he wants to jump straight in
	Everything I say is my opinion, honest

G.R.F. Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028	Post Options Post Reply Quote G.R.F. Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 9:50am
	OMG how can they have the brass neck to accuse us of air rowing ffs... And that other bit is wave surfing so not the same, I get that, can do it a bit on the sea, it's easier, more predictable if there are waves involved. This was unpredictable without the benefit of an up slope of a wave to 'check' on.
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G.R.F. Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028	Post Options Post Reply Quote G.R.F. Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 9:55am
	It's also probably not accurate to describe me as a 'beginner' per se, new to this type of craft maybe(boat without a spinnaker, they don't create this problem). I clearly have been running before walking having only really spent much time on spinnaker driven off wind boats, except the Blaze which from memory wasn't quite as 'lively' off wind. Lively in a good sense, the EPS certainly appears to accelerate quicker than I remember my Blaze doing, then I never sailed it in the close confines of a lake where everything seems to happen faster. Oh and the EPS has I guess what you'd describe as semi stayed rig, the lower section has a forestay and lowers, to about 2-3 ft above the deck. Oh and another thing, you don't seem to see the Phantom doing this much, can't say I've noticed my chum (another ex racing windsurfer) having death roll issues, then he is a bit heavier. Edited by G.R.F. - 21 Jun 12 at 10:00am
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pondmonkey Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202	Post Options Post Reply Quote pondmonkey Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 10:06am
	Is your Phantom buddy letting the rig go forward with adjustable lowers and forestay??? If not, then he won't be able to square the main, therefore he is in fact 'sheeted in a bit' as per Maxi's suggestion. And Maxi, yep, the point of posting that wasn't for Graeme to start copying them, it was to highlight that an induced 'death roll' is actually fast in the most competent of hands. As an ex laser sailor, you've probably experienced the upside of a fortuitous death roll survival... a shed load of speed and exceptional VMG to the mark on a dead downwinder. Of course being able to initiate this and know you'll survive it, control it even... well that's a skill I never mastered Edited by pondmonkey - 21 Jun 12 at 10:09am

maxibuddah Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760	Post Options Post Reply Quote maxibuddah Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jun 12 at 10:09am
	that's cos we basically deep broad reach due tobthe shrouds and the boat has a flat aft section with hard chines round bottom bottom boats roll more. the beginner comment only related to death rolling experience
	Everything I say is my opinion, honest