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Rule 69 - where are the limits

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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 12:53am
Originally posted by Roger

Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by jeffers

Sounds like a case of stand on the shore and hand out notices to offenders then when it comes to the Feva fleet.

or have a word with their parents... does it need formal, officious intervention?
 
 
Best course of action by far, embarassing the parents over their offsprings behaviour/language will ensure it doesn't happen again.
 
NO, guys, for goodness sake.
 
If you want to influence behaviour, then do NOT start out by punishment or embarrassment tactics.
  1. Clearly state the standard expected and effectively communicate the statement to all concerned.
  2. Talk-up and promote adherence to the standard.
  3. Tell/warn people when they fail to meet the standard.
  4. ONLY THEN start using enforcement tactics.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 1:08am
Originally posted by jeffers

What you need to remember when you do that is that someone else may take offence who is sailing close to you at which point it 'could' be construed as bring the sport in to disrepute...petty I know!
It's downright fanciful to suggest that words spoken in the course of a race and heard only by other competitors are capable of bringing the sport into disrepute.
 
I would suggest that it is only a little less fanciful to suggest that words spoken on the race-course which were overheard by, say a media boat, but which can be heard in any cinema, and many TV shows were capable of bringing the sport into disrepute.
 
The whole point I am trying to make is that 'ordinary' bad language should not be subject to rule 69 sanctions.
Originally posted by jeffers

Definitely agree with the having a word with those in charge. I know we will never get rid of it (everyone swears) but, from what has been said so far, it would appear it is a little to common place (IMO).
 
Well, if in your opinion, bad language is a little too common, then write to your club sailing committee or general committee and propose that they write a standard sailing instruction forbidding bad language. 
 
If the committee agrees and produces such a SI, then your opinion was obviously shared and a good one.
 
If they don't, perhaps you should reconsider your opinion. 


Edited by Brass - 30 May 12 at 1:39am
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Peaky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 7:29am
Brass,

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm guessing you are, but the basis of your argument seems to be that if the 'bad' language is in common use, then it can't be considered offensive. I believe there was recently a judgement to that effect in the real world too, about what might offend a policeman as he arrests you. But it doesnt make much sense to me. That is like saying that because muggings are on the increase, they are not as serious as they once were. Or if all sailors start to pump and rock, only the really big rockers should be disqualified.

For what it's worth though, in 30 years I've only been 'offended' on two occasions, so I dont think there is much of a problem.

Edited by Peaky - 30 May 12 at 7:30am
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 7:32am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by r2d2

standing on the shore near a mark on a light wind day can be quite 'surprising'

 

Why would it be any more 'surprising' than standing outside a school playground, or the window of a police station recreation room, or a meeting of your club sailing committee?


I can see that posting anything at all in this thread is a problem because people will assume you are saying something you are not or, will take exception to it, or as in this case cite part of it totally out of context. Brass, I pretty much agree with your analysis. The point I was making earlier in the thread was that we shouldn't just say that it is only the youth of today who swear.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Peaky

only the really big rockers should be disqualified.
 


What, like Meatloaf, or the Big Bopper?

Is it on the increase? I'm sure I heard just as much swearing at school in the 70's, it is just that swearing used to be non generational. Kids swore round kids, young adults round other young adults, and older ones round each other, but language was (is?) modified when crossing the generations.

As for a guideline, why not use the Jardine method? Anything Mark puts asterisks on is unacceptable language on the race course... Does this still include Essex?!*

Of course, if we use the footballing model, then any swearing appears to be allowed, but even the mildest form of racism would get you banned for months and vilified by the media for ever. Mind, that is like Pondmonkey's scottish example earlier, I guess, except the John Terry didn't pull the other player later (or as far as I'm aware he didn't!).

*Obviously not!


Edited by Rupert - 30 May 12 at 8:46am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 9:28am
Originally posted by r2d2

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by r2d2

standing on the shore near a mark on a light wind day can be quite 'surprising'

 

Why would it be any more 'surprising' than standing outside a school playground, or the window of a police station recreation room, or a meeting of your club sailing committee?


I can see that posting anything at all in this thread is a problem because people will assume you are saying something you are not or, will take exception to it, or as in this case cite part of it totally out of context. Brass, I pretty much agree with your analysis. The point I was making earlier in the thread was that we shouldn't just say that it is only the youth of today who swear.
Sorry if I have misunderstood you.
 
I thought you were pretending to be surprised to hear swearing coming from boats racing.
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 9:55am
no worries:-)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Roger

Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by jeffers

Sounds like a case of stand on the shore and hand out notices to offenders then when it comes to the Feva fleet.

or have a word with their parents... does it need formal, officious intervention?
 
 
Best course of action by far, embarassing the parents over their offsprings behaviour/language will ensure it doesn't happen again.
 
NO, guys, for goodness sake.
 
If you want to influence behaviour, then do NOT start out by punishment or embarrassment tactics.
  1. Clearly state the standard expected and effectively communicate the statement to all concerned.
  2. Talk-up and promote adherence to the standard.
  3. Tell/warn people when they fail to meet the standard.
  4. ONLY THEN start using enforcement tactics.
 
 

Or nip it in the bud by informing the parents?  

Sorry, I don''t think this is really an RRS issue, it's a about common courtesy: sub cultures and society at large will adopt and adapt language and how it is used with or without someone writing a policy document and then inevitably failing to enforce it.  

You cannot control what people will say.  There are political prisoners all across the world imprisoned because they do not have the liberties and freedom of speech we enjoy.  On what planet do you think some documented policy will actually be able to control whether someone says 'f*ck' or 'sh*t' when racing dinghies?  It's totally unenforceable because in the main it would be totally hypocritical... not many folks can hand on heart say they've never sworn in a frustration situation?  So then you're into grey areas of what constitutes 'frustration'.  

However, we all know that when we say 'FFS' about something we cock up ourselves it's not 'as bad' as saying 'FFS' when someone else cocks up, even within ear shot of children.  Which in turn is 'not as bad' as calling someone a 'F*cking C*nt' when they cock up either.  

So this may raise the question... where do you draw the line?  Well that answer can't be found a document or a protest hearing.  Each and every situation will be different and common sense will be the best way to determine whether any particular outburst was acceptable or not.    Society and sub-cultures (like a sailing club or yachting regatta) will regulate their language 'code of conduct' informally... and in the case of kids, usually through parental channels.   It's been like that forever, I really can't see the RRS or a Club Policy Document changing basic human nature somehow.
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andy101 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andy101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 1:02pm
Brass appears to be in Australia where failing to use bad language is the offence rather than using it! Wink
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by jeffers

Definitely agree with the having a word with those in charge. I know we will never get rid of it (everyone swears) but, from what has been said so far, it would appear it is a little to common place (IMO).
 
Well, if in your opinion, bad language is a little too common, then write to your club sailing committee or general committee and propose that they write a standard sailing instruction forbidding bad language. 
 
If the committee agrees and produces such a SI, then your opinion was obviously shared and a good one.
 
If they don't, perhaps you should reconsider your opinion. 

Funny you should say that, at my local club we don't have a problem with bad language as it is simply not tolerated. My inference was that, from what others have said, that this kind of behaviour is becoming far more common and my opinion is that steps should be taken to try and minimise this.

I see no reason to change my opinion at all.
Paul
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