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Rule 69 - where are the limits

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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by alstorer

if it's a big event, they may have daily briefings (and possibly debriefings!)- it may be possible to have a word with the RO or the squad coaches.

On light wind days there is the issue of whether it is inter or intra boat communication- my helm and I swear like sailors at each other all the time, and most of the time it isn't even anger... but we don't swear at other boats (unless we lose self control- very rare). If I'm having a mare of hoisting/dropping the kite or generally being a donkey, I'll often be swearing profusely at myself.


What you need to remember when you do that is that someone else may take offence who is sailing close to you at which point it 'could' be construed as bring the sport in to disrepute...petty I know!

Definitely agree with the having a word with those in charge. I know we will never get rid of it (everyone swears) but, from what has been said so far, it would appear it is a little to common place (IMO).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mister Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 6:55pm
I think it's fine to swear about what you're doing or if things are going wrong, but it becomes unacceptable as soon as it becomes name calling or trying to be deliberately offensive and hurtful towards other people.

For example...

I have no problem with someone fluffing up a spinnaker drop and shouting obscenities at themself, I have no reason to be offended because it's nothing to do with me.

If I'm bouncing the kite up the rig in 35 knots and the guys in the pit haven't tailed the halyard then I'd say it's fine after a couple of polite requests to order them to 'TAIL THE F****NG HALYARD!'

On the other hand, I'd be very upset if another boat started calling me nasty names or someone onboard my boat told me I was an f'ing idiot etc. That really isn't right. We're all out racing to enjoy ourselves with other likeminded people and the moment you start bullying and upsetting other people, it really does become pointless.



Edited by Mister Nick - 29 May 12 at 6:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Um, I don't see a difference there. In both bases you appear to be using bad language at another person. If you want to curse yourself, that's fine, but I wouldn't accept being spoken to like that.

The first example was at oneself, just to clear that up  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote themeaningoflife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 9:18pm
Just out of interest, which of the Feva events were you at when you heard all this? In my experiences on the water, at the pointy end (with Debbie Darling, ex Olympic Silver medallist around) the racing is perfectly controlled, since people know that to win in such a big fleet they just need to concentrate on themselves. Admittedly with so many of the Darling clan at the front of the fleet maybe they just don't want to offend their Mum/ Aunt  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by bustinben


Originally posted by Peaky

Um, I don't see a difference there. In both bases you appear to be using bad language at another person. If you want to curse yourself, that's fine, but I wouldn't accept being spoken to like that.

The first example was at oneself, just to clear that up  LOL

Oh, I see - that makes sense. I didn't think you'd be so hard on yourself!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 11:50pm
In his original post, Gordon asked three questions, which posts in the topic, possibly influenced by my attempts to set out my personal ground rules, have drifted away from a little.
 
Originally posted by gordon

In recent months I have been involved in several rule 69 hearings involving complaints about the use of bad or insulting language on the water.
[Gordons' questions were:]
1.  Where do you all think the limit should be?
2.  Have standards of what is acceptable changed?
3.  When do you think it appropriate that sanctions be imposed?
So in an attempt to get some answers, I'll give mine, in three separate posts.
 
Here's my answer to Question 1 (Questions 2 and 3 in separate posts to follow).
 
Where do you all think the limit should be?
 
I think it is very difficult to answer this question in any sort of general terms.
 
Take a look at the RYA Guidance, helpfully cited by PEd at post #3.  The RYA says that bad language may or may not be subject of rule 69 action and if it is, it may be sanctioned by anything in the whole range of responses open to a protest committeeranging from a warning, up to exclusion from all races in an event.
 
Clearly where 'the limit' is differs greatly with circumstances or context.
 
I think the best way of getting a feel for where the limit might be is by describing and discussing fairly concrete examples.  Some posts in this topic have already provided such examples and some discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 12:13am
In his original post, Gordon asked three questions, which posts in the topic, possibly influenced by my attempts to set out my personal ground rules, have drifted away from a little.
 
I have just posted my answer to Gordon's first question for people to discuss.
 
Here's my answer to Gordon's second question
 
Have standards of what is acceptable changed?
 
For starters, it might be said that what most people normally do represents what is 'acceptable'.
 
What is 'acceptable' is not defined by what various well-meaning people, with the improvement of society at heart, say is or is not acceptable.
 
I think that adults and kids around sailing boats use rude words just about the same as when I was a kid around sailing boats 40 years ago.  Maybe a little more often, maybe a little louder, maybe, thanks to American TV and movies, with a little more anatomical imagination, but not all that much different.
 
What has changed more appreciably is:
  1. honest acknowledgement by most people in society and communities that some or most people do actually use rude words;  and
  2. somewhat shrill demands from well-meaning people that everyone and his (or her) dog should 'take responsibilty' for what may be rude or unpleasant, but not criminal behaviour of others.

So, with your indulgence, having thought that bit through a little, the key change is that we more honestly recognise that people use foul language, and consequently 'hear' the use of foul language more often (when previously we would have pretended we didn't hear it at all).

Having thus massively complicated the issue, I guess the simple answer is, Yes, standards have changed:  foul language is now more common, four letter f*** and c*** words are now as common as 'bloody' and 'damn' used to be, and to the extent that they are common, should be considered more acceptable than they once were.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 12:32am
In his original post, Gordon asked three questions, which posts in the topic, possibly influenced by my attempts to set out my personal ground rules, have drifted away from a little.
 
I have just posted my answer to Gordon's first and second question for people to discuss.
 
Here's my answer to Gordon's third question
 
When do you think it appropriate that sanctions be imposed?
 
Before giving my rather legalistic answer, I'd like to remind everybody that I'm all for clubs and event organising authorities making their evironments 'family-friendly', if that's what they want, by suitable rules against foul language and other bad manners clearly stated in their NOR or SI.  Such NOR or SI would primarily to establishing, or mandating that all or some specific use of foul language was to be considered 'gross' bad manners.
 
It's appropriate for sanctions to be imposed for the breach of good manners constiuted by using foul language when a protest committee from its own observations or a report:
  1. forms a belief that a breach by a competitor was sufficiently gross, and that the potentially available evidence of the breach was sufficient to warrant calling a hearing under rule 69;  and
  2. decides in a proper hearing, following proper notification to the competitor, that the competitor committed the alleged misconduct and decided on a sanction.

Bear in mind that a 'sanction' imposed by a protest committee under rule 69.1 includes a warning with no other action, and there's nothing to stop a protest committee taking account of any previous warnings a competitor might have received.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 12:38am
Originally posted by Neptune

Have you ever shared the a race course with the Feva's on a windy day......pure filth...I think its because mum and dad are out of ear shot, not sure, they were having fun, but I found it slightly disturbing
Would you have been equally disturbed if you had heard that language in a Finn fleet?
 
Why?/Why not?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 12 at 12:46am
Originally posted by r2d2

standing on the shore near a mark on a light wind day can be quite 'surprising'
 
Why would it be any more 'surprising' than standing outside a school playground, or the window of a police station recreation room, or a meeting of your club sailing committee?
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