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Rule 69 - where are the limits

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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rule 69 - where are the limits
    Posted: 28 May 12 at 6:23pm
In recent months I have been involved in several rule 69 hearings involving complaints about the use of bad or insulting language on the water.

Reactions vary from:

- it was time someone put a stop to this inappropriate behaviour
- what is all the fuss about, swearing and insulting the competitors is part of the fun.

Where do you all think the limit should be? Have standards of what is acceptable changed? When do you think it appropriate that sanctions be imposed?


Gordon
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rogerd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 12 at 6:52pm
unfortunately the f word has become so much part of the common language amongst some younger people it has lost its value when your really f*****g p****d off.
 
There is no need for bad and insulting language on or off the water, but then I am of an age when I was shocked as a small boy when my mum said Damn.
 
Seriously bad language in the young has become normal and acceptable so what may be acceptable in some fleets and clubs is certainly not acceptable in others. Very difficult to draw the line. Personally I would say that it is unacceptable to upset other water users.


Edited by rogerd - 28 May 12 at 6:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 12 at 8:21pm
Quite simple I think:  If you swear, who cares.

If you swear at someone, that's something else.

Think about the difference between:
Bad mark rounding, got a boat up the chuff on the windward quarter, getting destroyed by the boat in front ...  "F*** you f****king **** why did you do that!!"
vs
Someone just gets room at the mark, you point at them and shout at them "F*** you f****king ****".


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 12 at 9:59pm
Um, I don't see a difference there. In both bases you appear to be using bad language at another person. If you want to curse yourself, that's fine, but I wouldn't accept being spoken to like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 12 at 10:19pm
I would have thought you can scream whatever you like as long as it's not aimed at anyone (especially any form of name calling).  

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 12 at 10:54pm
No doubt you referred to the RYA's guidance on 69: 

• Warning, but no penalty (level I)
• Increase the boat's points score (level 2)
• Exclude competitor and, when appropriate, disqualify the boat:
• from one or more races (level 3)
• from the event (level 4)

So, well, it all depends. Screaming "I'm f***ing going to kill you!!" at another competitor would make me hand out a level 4. 

"F*** off" to another competitor... I would think about. If he said sorry and it wasn't a vindictive shout, but just more sort of "oh, just f... off!", I would leave him with a warning. If not, or it was more, then I would up the stakes a bit. 

Bloody gets less than f***. And all this is assuming that children weren't involved. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 28 May 12 at 11:34pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 2:09am

I have no objection to clubs or organising authorities making rules in NOR or SI to create 'family friendly' or 'child appropriate' environments, but I do object to attempts to read these objectives into the International Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS).

The RRS are written, primarily to regulate serious competition among mature adults.  If there are special considerations for special types of competitors, then add to or change the rules, using the mechanisms they provide.

The norms to be taken to underlie the RRS are the norms of normal common behaviour, not the norms which schoolteachers, parsons, and the marketing department of the RYA aspire to, or wish for.

Despite what people might wish, foul language is heard in the streets, and on radio.  It is seen pervasively on TV and in films.  It is used, on occasion, by all sorts of people, police officers, media stars, political leaders, parents and by children, in the playground, in the street and at sporting venues and other places.

Sportsmanlike does not equate to 'gentlemanlike'.  Foul language is a breach of good manners.  Foul language, on its own, can never give rise to a protest for breach of principles of sportsmanship under rule 2.

Make no mistake, where foul language forms part of a breach of sportsmanship, for example, attempting to distract, by repetitive hailing, gross personal insults, or foul mouthed abuse of race officials, it moves into the realm of unsporting behaviour and should attract protests and penalties accordingly.

However, to return to foul language alone:  rule 69 is the rule that deals with breaches of good manners.  I could perhaps be persuaded that using foul language is always a breach of good manners, but the question to be answered under rule 69 is, is it a gross breach of good manners?

The RYA, through its Charter, has set out to establish a 'family friendly' environment for all racing by stating as a Principle:

Foul or abusive language, intimidation, aggressive behaviour or lack of respect for others … will not be tolerated.

Note that the RYA has not adopted this, or anything like it as a Prescription which changes the rules.  In my view, so that it is clear to everybody, any rules about bad language should be clearly written into the Notice of Race or Sailing Instructions.

Bryan Willis presented an excellent paper on misconduct, by instruction, to the ISAF Racing Rules Committee in 2006.  A copy of it is here  http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/min_RR_07_11_2006-[3055].pdf

It discusses the various contexts of bad language very well.  It is well worth a read.

By all means control your club and event environments as you wish, but do it by clearly written rules in the NOR or SI, not by appeals to some non-existent or imagined historical standards.

 

 



Edited by Brass - 31 May 12 at 5:44am
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 7:32am
+1
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 8:47am
RYA racing charter:

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingCharter/RYA%20Racing%20Charter%202009-2012.pdf

an excerpt:

"Foul or abusive language, intimidation, aggressive behaviour or lack of
respect for others and their property will not be tolerated"
the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 8:51am
did you not read Brass' post? he already covered that

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