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Rule 69 - where are the limits

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 15 at 10:48pm
If the person calling you a silly sausage did so deliberately to offend you personally, with prior knowledge that it would do so, then perhaps you have a point, but if such a mild term was used at random, you'd have to understand it was not meant to be offensive. f**k off yout**t, on the other hand, doesn't need context.
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andymck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 15 at 8:14am
I can think of plenty of people who would be greatly offended by being called a sausage. They would even claim it was racist, given what sausages are made from.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 15 at 2:42am
Not sure my verbal reasoning skills can cope with that last sentence of yours, Brass! And in any case, what if I personally do consider "Silly sausage" to be a gross breach of good manners? You might not, the Protest Committee might not, but what if I do?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 15 at 12:16am
Originally posted by Solo4652

Well, - they're the Protest Committee, not the Ethics Committee.

Why would it be grossly unreasonable for a competitor to be penalised for saying "Silly Sausage" to me on the racetrack if I genuinely find it offensive?

Because there is no rule that forbids calling you a silly sausage or offending you in any other way that does not rise to the level of a gross breach of good manners.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 10:01pm
Well, - they're the Protest Committee, not the Ethics Committee.

Why would it be grossly unreasonable for a competitor to be penalised for saying "Silly Sausage" to me on the racetrack if I genuinely find it offensive? The fact that the vast majority of people may not find it offensive is pretty irrelevant. It was said to me, and I find it offensive.

Maybe the thing to do is not to make a full-on Protest hearing mandatory for such incidents (as it is at the moment). Maybe we should make an Advisory Hearing a necessary first response, the aim being that the name-caller learns that what he said was considered offensive, even if he didn't think so. If he says the same thing again to me, then I protest.

This then replaces the traditional "top-down" approach where somebody other than me ends up deciding for me what's acceptable/offensive to me and what isn't. I think that makes far more sense.

Edited by Solo4652 - 13 Aug 15 at 10:07pm
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 6:50pm
Precisely. You spend quite a bit of time trying to define behaviour which is offensive and unacceptable on my behalf. I don't think this approach will ever work. If I tell you that, for whatever reason, I find; "You're such a silly sausage" offensive and unacceptable, who are you, or "an objective, fair minded tribunal: a protest committee." to say otherwise, please?

Well, they are the protest committee. That's the structure we as sailors agree to when we go racing. You may find "silly sausage" offensive, but it would grossly unreasonable for a competitor to be penalised for saying it to you on the race track. What is the alternative? Other than allowing the person who objects to "silly sausage" being allowed in someway to penalise another competitor for using an expression that the vast majority would not regard as offensive?

If you want to race that involves close interaction with others. That can only work if everyone accepts that you need a set of common standards and rules to operate by, and that some may have to compromise on what they accept in those. And that precisely means accepting that someone other than yourself may end up deciding for you what is acceptable and what isn't.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 4:56pm
@andymck;    Agreed. Thank you.

Edited by Solo4652 - 13 Aug 15 at 4:57pm
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andymck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 4:53pm
You are quite correct solo and there is plenty of examples away from sailing that back you up. The only option is the protest committee could decide on minimal sanction, not that your feelings were not offended. Fortunately sailors tend to be more pragmatic than some of the employees where I work.
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andymck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 4:47pm
Abuse and bullying are very subjective, and subject to the recipients feelings or those that witness such language. The accepted definition of bullying is totally dependent on the recipients feelings, not what the herd feels appropriate.
Any use of a swear word on the water is potential abuse, and should be considered as such if this resulted in a protest. As Brass has said in his post that the sanction may be a warning but it has to be a case of user beware.
I have witnessed penalties given at a schools team racing event by an international unpire for language most of us would consider harmless banter and certainly was not swearing.
Since that point I have kept my out of boat communication on a much more benign level, and always start with "protest" if I feel I have been wronged, and try to keep it at that.
Even then I have once been sworn so badly at that I should have protested, but am not easily offended and no kids were around and my come back made him sail really slowly.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 4:28pm
Precisely. You spend quite a bit of time trying to define behaviour which is offensive and unacceptable on my behalf. I don't think this approach will ever work. If I tell you that, for whatever reason, I find; "You're such a silly sausage" offensive and unacceptable, who are you, or "an objective, fair minded tribunal: a protest committee." to say otherwise, please?
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