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Rule 69 - where are the limits

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 2:23pm
I guess if it's in earshot of someone easily offended, then yes, you are potentially in breach of Rule 69....  

Personally I'm all for colourful language on the racecourse, it adds some variety and spice to the otherwise dull and inaccessible nomenclature of this sport.  What's the only other solution.... a list of permitted words and phrases?

Given you can even offend someone with your tone, I don't really see what the options are here.

Check this out:



And obviously this solo sailor is more respectable than this one.


Edited by kneewrecker - 17 Aug 15 at 2:31pm
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Null View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 2:15pm
So here is a question for you.  I get fairly wound up when sailing.  Mainly with myself.  As Jeffers will tell you from experience.  I often swear at myself in a fit of self induced rage.  Not proud of it and would be devastated if i offended anyone, however If I am not directing at anyone other than myself am i still in breach of rule 69?  I mean no one any offence, just frustrated in myself.  
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Rupert

How is Mentioning someone's hair colour racist? Offensive I can see, but before I went grey, I'm told I had a ginger beard (to me it always looked brown...), yet I am the same race as the bloke up the road with a black beard.

Gingerbeard....bet it was not as awesome as this one....


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fraggle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 11:53am
I've been on the receiving end of this myself. At a laser open a number of years ago. I was on port trying to take avoiding action of a starboard boat (both beating) and he bore away. I muttered about give me a chance, hold your course and received a torrent of abuse, not sure how many times I was told to F off. I responded to tell him to shut up and that I would protest him if he continued. This resulted in yet more abuse, so I yelled protest and let him continue shouting. (I was more focussed on the radial behind me than a full rig that didn't count to my results so didn't want to get too distracted)
Now I'm fairly confident on the water and managed to not let him wind me up (went on to overtake him on the reach and beat him in the race). I guess he took offence to a young girl in a radial being that close to him (full rig).

I was advised when I got back to shore that he had been a bit of a hot shot in his youth and was a bit of a god at the club so I guess he got away with that sort of behaviour there. I didn't follow through with the protest as didn't appear it would be taken seriously, despite me having a witness. Really should of taken it further as that could have easily put off a more timid sailor from ever competing again. It wasn't just the language, but the tone and volume used. Definitely trying to intimidate. I do wonder if he would have behaved the same if I was a 20something lad in a full rig...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MattK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 15 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by Rupert

How is Mentioning someone's hair colour racist?

It's not.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 15 at 7:50pm
How is Mentioning someone's hair colour racist? Offensive I can see, but before I went grey, I'm told I had a ginger beard (to me it always looked brown...), yet I am the same race as the bloke up the road with a black beard.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 3:15pm
As expected, as I must admit I did when these concepts were first introduced to me, people are way over reacting. The expected calls to be made on the course are clearly explained in the rules.
No one has ever suggested we should be chucking people out for not saying please. What we are saying is that what we may perceive as banter, may be bordering on bullying and offence.
Most people in the uk are very happy to use some peoples hair colour in banter, which clearly meets the definition of racism, and don't intend the deep offence they cause. I also do not think in most cases it would warrant a DSQ either. But you would be guilty.
The only case I have seen, was when a talented team racer told a guy from an opposite team after they beat his 1 v 3 mark trap "you should even try team race manoeuvres against teams like us, you will always loose" got an immediate flag.
It had been made clear in the briefing what would happen. But was not excessive language.
This is a clear minefield, there are legal definitions of offence, and I am afraid they have little to do with what either the general public, nor the protest committee regards as offence.
This is quite clearly why you have such a wide option of potential penalties within 69

Andy Mck
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 2:29pm
Folks,

Alongside my stepping aside over in the "Simplified Rules" debate, I think I need to do the same thing here. I've contributed what I can to this thorny problem of Rule 69, and all I'm doing now is repeating points I've made before.

So, I'll check in periodically, but stay away from front-line debate for now.

Peace,

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 1:21pm
"...that requires common agreement on things like what is offensive language as much as it does agreeing that I won't fit a mainsail 50% bigger than class rules allow..."

Two completely different things, I suggest. It's entirely possible for us to agree about something overt and quantifiable such as sail sizes. However, it's going to be well-nigh impossible for us to agree on something which is hidden, personal and subjective such as offensive language. In fact, I'm suggesting that we don't even try to - we recognise from the outset that "offensive language" is a an ever-changing shape-shifting phenomenon that's best "defined" at a moment in time by the person on the receiving end of it. Could all be different next week, of course, or in a different fleet, or with different generations as society shifts and evolves. That's the problem with "gross breach of manners" - it's such an ephemeral thing.
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 11:48am
It's a gross breach of good manners if it was aimed at me and I say so. It's easy for the protest committee to decide whether it was a gross breach of good manners - just ask the person on the receiving end. 

That's complete nonsense. On that basis anyone can have someone disqualified for saying pretty much anything if they want to by saying "Oh I was so offended".

Racing sailing boats, like any other group sport involves agreement between those  involved about what they are doing and how. That requires common agreement on things like what is offensive language as much as it does agreeing that I won't fit a mainsail 50% bigger than class rules allow. If we don't accept common agreement on what the rules of the game are then we might as well all go home.

You are, of course, fully entitled to be offended by "silly sausage", and to say so, but your are not entitled to expect a protest committee to penalise someone because you, and you alone, find it offensive.
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